No Baal Runs!!!

SlechtWeerBeer

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

What worked in D2 before 109 was the diablos armament, just make the end bosses so tough that they are hardest to kill alone and even horribly difficult in party. Also given the option of 1 shot 1 kill feature like we've seen on early part of the D3 gameplay vid with the siegebreaker, that would also make HC players feet crumble and have some serious hard time with bosses.
The barbarian didn't get one-shotted, mind you.
The Siegebreaker would have killed the barbarian with it's next blow, so a special death animation played.


 

Transistor EMF

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

The dynamic adjustment thing gives me some ideas...

1. Bosses have diminished returns. Eg. 1st baal kill gives 100% excellent loot, 2nd kill gives 99% excellent loot, 3rd 98
etc.

2. You can only kill a boss 100 times for good loot and then you get normal monster loot.

These solutions also allows/forces ppl to make new characters rather than reusing the same ones...which will happen more frequently now since blizz is offering respecs...
 

Akse

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I totally agree with the OP.. I hate this new thing that came to the game in LOD.. RUNS, runs x runs y runs z whatever it is it must be a run. There are no more just exp game 1 2 3 4 5 where people with different levels just come to the game and exp all around the world.

This is how it was in D2 before LOD. People did of course do CS CS CS CS at high levels 90+ because there was no point doing anything else but river and CS at high levels cause it didn't give any exp. But there isn't the situation that lod has that once people get to hell they want to be in the last act immidiately and they do 8 player runs somewhere, 1.08 it was bloody, 1.09 it was cows and 1.10+ mainly baal.

Games were typicall: xp here 1,2,3 etc, amapala 1,2,3 etc, sorcnecro 1,2,3 etc, exp game 1, 2,3 and of course the usual questing games. These amapala and sorcnecro games were generally games where people wanted to have some kind of setup for clearing CS, people didn't clear CS in 8 player party because before LOD in 1.06 exp was completely shared, so forming a huge group was really ****ty exp. 2-3 player parties were good because clearing the areas was a lot faster than solo(ama gets conc, sorc gets lower res and CE). So generally it was 2 player team clearing CS, 1 high level barb in river of flame (83+), lower level characters doing outer steppes, plains and damned (75-83), and below that flayer or arcane sanc or such. So the game areas were used a lot more than today.

So solutions for the Baal run problems are quite hard to find if blizzard wants as they have said many times to support party playing and multiplaying. Shared exp is a good thing but for multiplaying it might actually be pain in the butt. People want to solo because it gives full exp, or play in small parties because the faster killing speed goes over the exp penalty of the party.

If we think that we don't put shared exp to Diablo 3, some of my ideas for preventing "runs" might be:
1) In the End game we should have at least 3 equal exping/item finding areas. Equal meaning similar worth in exp, and item quality. Also we could have some sort of quest that is available for every game that would reward you with gold and exp and maybe random rare item(like from gamble). In this quest you would have to clear let say 80-90% of these 3 areas to get the quest done. So this way the party that creates the game will do at least those 3 areas so that they get the quest.

2) Exp bonus buff. This buff only works in the act you are, this buff activates when you clear 80-90% of monsters in 1 real area in the act (if you go to other act the buff don't work there). So you would gain let say 5%(just an example) exp bonus for every area you have cleared in the act if we have 7 areas in act it would be 35% bonus in the last places you go in that act. At high levels it wouldn't be beneficial to clear all the areas in the act if the start areas are lower level but even then you could make the last 4 areas..

3) This might already be in the game.. if we have WP lets say for the last place of the game, now after the WP there would be 3 dungeons before the last boss each size of one World stone keep level. So how would be get to the last boss? Wizard teleports? Okey but if there won't be townportal system in D3 it doesn't help much when everyone else have to run.. also if(lets hope so) teleporting is manahungry in D3 it would be slow to get there. So only viable option is to run through all the levels of the dungeon to the last boss and hey why not? They should just design the levels of the dungeons so that they give good loot and exp, there should be some interesting bosses on the way and maybe some of those random quests.

Well gotta go now but thers some ideas.
 

Bad Ash

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

The dynamic adjustment thing gives me some ideas...

1. Bosses have diminished returns. Eg. 1st baal kill gives 100% excellent loot, 2nd kill gives 99% excellent loot, 3rd 98
etc.

2. You can only kill a boss 100 times for good loot and then you get normal monster loot.

These solutions also allows/forces ppl to make new characters rather than reusing the same ones...which will happen more frequently now since blizz is offering respecs...

hmmm so an individual aspect instead of a realm aspect? Thats pretty interesting. Would a kill in a group count as -1?

I just was about to say "that would suck to kill him 100 times and not get any of the drops" and forgot EVERYONE GETS THEIR OWN DROPS.

Wow, that concept that I forgot about made any of these ideas better.



 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I don't know, i think we need something more streamlined that could work for both SP and MP alike rather than a specific solution for MP and another for SP.

Rethinking my idea about spreading drop chances among all monster (mid to high lv ones maybe) this will really make playing the game normally far more rewarding than doing runs ... let's see.

-If a boss (i.e Baal) had a 0.009 chance to drop item (X) which is mildly rare and good item.
-And each hi or mid lv monster you encounter in Hell or Nightmare has a chance between 0.0001 and 0.00004 to drop that same item (X) (depending on the monster lv.)

WOuldn't it be better now for players to play the game through to get that item rather than skip through it to meet that boss several times.

If we average the chance of drop by the monster population to something like 0.00007 and multiply that by the average number of monsters mid and hi level monsters the player kills through the game on say hell difficulty (let's say 500 during an average play through) we get a chance of 0.035.

In the end the boss give 0.009 and the summation of all monsters give 0.035 which is the chance you get from running him 4 times .. of course they could be tweaked to raise that to 6 times or 8 times to make the whole boss running thing useless and make playing properly through the game more rewarding (not to mention the combo-kill system that multiply EXP and individual drops from all the 500 monsters if you are playing with a team of 4 ... that's a lot to miss).

I know the numbers might be all over the place .. but i think you get the idea.
 

Cynical

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

D3:
Bashiok has hinted that dungeons would be like Arcane Sanctuary V2.0. I guess you know what that means...
WPs and TPs, so far no updates on this yet but I think they would be nerfed to prevent abuse.
Teleport has been modified so that wizards can't pass through walls,doors or any obstructions until they are destroyed.

I just wanted to quote this, and make the observation of "Arcane Sanctuary 2.0" sounds to me like the maps will be wrong direction but mobs/loot, wrong dir m/L, wrong dir, m/L, right direction, boss, next area. If this is the case, I would very much rather run through the game than target specific bosses. :crazyeyes:

Also typically while I would do boss runs in D2, I would also kill all of the bosses in the acts (except the harder ones to get to, just wasnt worth it) and alot of monsters on the way. I would go through Abaddon etc. because in my mind, most of the great items dont need a 99 treasure class, and either way i still arrived to that anyway. I felt it was better to kill by volume. I agree with wolf.


 
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Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

of course they could be tweaked to raise that to 6 times or 8 times to make the whole boss running thing useless and make playing properly through the game more rewarding
This cannot be, Knight.
You are killing the endgame. It's all fun and dandy when questing. But you cannot have an item hunting game by forcing players to play large chunks of the game every time they decide to farm for equipment. No one would do it.

Conceptually it looks ok, but this would destroy the game. There must be specific farmable areas and monsters. Only, there must be more than there was in D2. That's how you add diversity.


 

SlechtWeerBeer

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

This cannot be, Knight.
You are killing the endgame. It's all fun and dandy when questing. But you cannot have an item hunting game by forcing players to play large chunks of the game every time they decide to farm for equipment. No one would do it.

Conceptually it looks ok, but this would destroy the game. There must be specific farmable areas and monsters. Only, there must be more than there was in D2. That's how you add diversity.
I recall a "Blessed by Tyrael" (iirc) system proposed on these fora. Every now and then an area would be blessed, increasing the drop rates in there.
Kinda like that?


 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I recall a "Blessed by Tyrael" (iirc) system proposed on these fora. Every now and then an area would be blessed, increasing the drop rates in there.
Kinda like that?
Well, yes. That would help if the changes you folks proposed ended up being on the game. But the problem here is that you folks are really way off the mark. Those type of games just don't work. They really don't.

Conceptually all seems ok; It's balanced, it looks alright, and it deals with what you seem to perceive being a problem. But in practice no one will want to run aimlessly farming for equipment in a system that privileges "playing the game". It's just the player nature to simplify their access to the game goals. When the game actively conspires against this, the player looses interest.

This is not to say "Baal runs" and "Pit runs" isn't a problem. They are. But truly, they are because there was only one of them. If you have 5, 6, 10 different "Baal runs" and 5, 6, 10 different "Pit runs", with all of them offering different challenges and rewards, there won't be a problem anymore. And the diversity you folks so rightfully demand will be there.


 

SlechtWeerBeer

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

This is not to say "Baal runs" and "Pit runs" isn't a problem. They are. But truly, they are because there was only one of them. If you have 5, 6, 10 different "Baal runs" and 5, 6, 10 different "Pit runs", with all of them offering different challenges and rewards, there won't be a problem anymore. And the diversity you folks so rightfully demand will be there.
By making any late-game (A4/5) area farmable, you have 5, 6, 10 different Pit runs. You go through an area, you get drops. That's exactly what happens on a Pit run.
All those areas are different (sure, in D2 the difference was minimal because you'd lay waste to everything equally fast, but you get the idea I hope?).


 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I recall a "Blessed by Tyrael" (iirc) system proposed on these fora. Every now and then an area would be blessed, increasing the drop rates in there.
Kinda like that?
Problem is how would the players know which area is blessed... does the game tell them explicitly or do they have to stumble upon the blessed area by luck !!?

The first case feels kinda forced and weird .. like the game saying "hey guys .. this area has good items now .. go there !!!" ... and if it is the second case it means they have to play through the whole game to stumble upon that blesses location .. and i don't see how is that different from what i proposed.

This cannot be, Knight.
You are killing the endgame. It's all fun and dandy when questing. But you cannot have an item hunting game by forcing players to play large chunks of the game every time they decide to farm for equipment. No one would do it.

Conceptually it looks ok, but this would destroy the game. There must be specific farmable areas and monsters. Only, there must be more than there was in D2. That's how you add diversity.
Nothing is more destructive than a monotonous end game.

Who said item hunting has to be made easy by pointing the players out to where the best item can be farmed .. that's not really interesting and boils down to monotonous end game exactly like D2 .. everybody knew Baal was good for farming and look how it ended up ... i think even providing 2 or 4 more places like Baal throne room won't solve anything ... the players will just pick the best out of those 2 or 4 static farming locations and farm it to hell ... who said D2 only had Baal for farming .. there were other locations .. but like i said it all ended up with Baal reign over because it is the best place out of all the other static farming places.


But if we really want item hunting really exciting it should be spread all over the place ... like i said .. the higher the monster level slightly better the chance of rare drops ... so pockets of random hi-level monster, random unique mob/boss or random quests could be potential treasure hunting chances .. but they are neither static nor farmable.


And also .. something everyone seems to be forgetting .. ALL the outdoor areas are static in D3 .. MEANING everyone will memorize them after 2 or 3 play-throughs .. and i say that's about 50% of the game area ... IMO if they added static farming locations like D2 it's gonna be even worse that Baal runs.


Besides .. playing large chunks of the game with a team of 4 .. means you get X4 more items than D2 .. and that's a lot of items .. meaning lots and lots of things to trade .. it is much better that way for the end game.

Not to mention a lot more XP than usual due to the XP combo-kill system.


 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I'm having an hard time discussing this issue. I'm forced to once again evoke MUDs and how they have been doing things for 20 years with a high rate of success... But I think you guys will become tired of hearing me speak :)

I just know for a fact this will create a lot of problems. A game such as diablo, heavily centered around item hunting, survives of its ability to provide relatively "easy" and accessible farming methods. I tried to address this a few posts back. Dunno if anyone cared to read.

In any case, I'm afraid I'm not convinced by your arguments. There's so much time investment already involved in serious item farming, that I fear any mechanism forcing players into "playing the game" will discourage many of them quicker than the 8 years diablo 2 survivability current record.
 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

In any case, I'm afraid I'm not convinced by your arguments.
No problem, i just want to know if you did take in account that a large portion of D3 play areas will be static and that playing in party (which is one of the main goals of the D3 team .. making D3 a team game .. individual drops .. removal of forces hostility ... combo XP bonus, team recalling scroll .. etc etc .. it is a clear an explicit goal) means that if you play a chunk of the game you will be getting X4 more times items (for each his.her individual drops).

Meaning an already X4 higher chance to get better items just by simply playing through the game with a couple of friends.


There's so much time investment already involved in serious item farming, that I fear any mechanism forcing players into "playing the game" will discourage many of them quicker than the 8 years diablo 2 survivability current record.
Its not forcing .. or if i'm going to be a little objective i could say this .. the game had forced players before to farm a specific boss repeatedly to get the best gear .. now it is forcing them to actually play the game to get the best gear.


It's forcing either way .. what matters it what goes with the game goals set by the Dev team .. some won't like that .. but believe me .. many others will like it.



If that system is implemented .. playing the game through once grants X8 or even X16 better chances than running a boss once .. so in the end it boils down to almost the same time investment (this way playing through the game once and running the boss 8 times will produce the same chances of rare drops and take the same amount of time for ex.) except THAT TIME is spent playing the game not spamming one boss over and over .. frankly .. it is obvious for everyone which is less monotonous, stagnant and boring.

To have 80% of a game population killing the same boss for eternity .. or to have them actually playing the game for a change .. you choose.


 

Transistor EMF

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

It's nice to sit & brainstorm such complicated solutions to some of D2's flaws, knowing that the odds of blizz implementing them are about as much as seeing a zod drop - as blizz wants to dumb down the game for new players... ;-)
 

Kiroptus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

It's nice to sit & brainstorm such complicated solutions to some of D2's flaws, knowing that the odds of blizz implementing them are about as much as seeing a zod drop - as blizz wants to dumb down the game for new players... ;-)
More dumbed down than Diablo 2 "runs"? Impossible, if its diferent from D2 there is no where to go but up.
 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

It's nice to sit & brainstorm such complicated solutions to some of D2's flaws, knowing that the odds of blizz implementing them are about as much as seeing a zod drop - as blizz wants to dumb down the game for new players... ;-)
What is not so nice is seeing comments like this which assume somehow us, armchair game designers, have all the answers to the game while Blizzard, a top game developer, is fishing for clues.

EDIT: To clarify, if you really think blizzard wants to dumb down the game and your idea of what the game should be is the real thing, you need a reality check.


 

Tremis

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

To have 80% of a game population killing the same boss for eternity .. or to have them actually playing the game for a change .. you choose.
This is such a ridiculous comment that I had to make an account to respond here. Are you kidding me, sir?

You've conveniently neglected to mention that even if Blizzard creates such a bonus to boss magic item drop %, not one person will even bother to take advantage of it.

Why? Because its a well known fact that playing through an entire game more than once after you've beaten it already is exactly like working.

Additionally, this idea will fail for precisely the same reason as magic find items did in D2: no one ever bothered using them! In fact, your idea will not only actually lead to people not buying D3, but also cause them to spontaneously combust!

P.S. secret non-sarcastic message to Knight_Wolf, this is a great idea.


 

Krugar

Banned
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Well, my problem with that quote from Knight_Wolf is that nobody in here is disagreeing with it. Not even I who am not a particular fan of the changes he would like to see implemented.

I'm not sure why this is being insisted upon. No one wants to kill the same boss over and over again. This much has already been said.
 

Bad Ash

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

again, its going to happen, people will farm. So give us options to keep the game fresh. people dont want to kill the same boss over and over, so if we had 5 bosses in act 5 that all needed groups to be killed and all were fun and had the same loot tables, this would not be a fix, but help to keep the game fresh which is all I care about. Farming is inevitable, making it so you dont want to pull your hair out from monotony is the challenge

Tremis just made me laugh btw haha
 

Tremis

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: No Baal Runs!!!

All sarcasm aside, I would also like to see more meaningful ways of farming items, not just one or two boss run farming methods. IMO, Knight_Wolf's idea represents a fun way of allowing players who want to grind for gear, do so in a more dynamic way. In doing so, this would also create more types of viable magic-find characters/runners.

I don't think that people would be turned off by this, since, if they liked, could still stick to the old method of speed-rushing bosses.

Another interested bonus drop idea that kinda worked could be seen in Hellgate (..I think I just threw up a bit). It had an interested system for bonus item drops (like superchest-style) for killing enemies in certain ways X number of times, etc, which allowed the player to alter their play style if they wanted to get them. It wasn't perfect, but the main concept, where you only needed to do that one last requirement to get your superdrop, was really fun.

IMO, This type of superdrop system could also be a neat addition to D3.
 
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