No Baal Runs!!!

[JonoLith]

No Baal Runs!!!

Just to be upfront, I do not mean "Please don't put Baal into Diablo 3". What I mean is please don't make it so that the only thing people actually do in Diablo 3 is Baal runs. It's silly to do this, and I think the solution to it is so simple, especially given what we already know about what is in D3.

First off, the only reason everyone and their dog does Baal runs is because it is quick and reliable xp and loot. The negative side to this, of course, is that no one wants to explore any other part of the game, because why would they? All the rewards are in a static location that's easily reached.

All that would have to happen is all the XP and Loot rewards that come off of every boss on the hardest difficulty (Including the random encounter bosses, which sounds awesome) to be equal to the rewards that come off of the final boss. Also, add significant loot tables to chests, and bookcases as well as any other kind of interactable object you would like. (Wardrobe, Casket, Bodies, ect.)

What this would do is encourage exploration of the game world and allow players to do ANYTHING but the last boss fight and feel like they aren't wasting their time. I, personally, would LOVE to load up a game and start at the beginning and go to the end and not feel stupid for having done so.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Actually limiting it to the bosses only will still create the same problem .. we will still have Ball run no.1 .. no.2 .. no.3 and no.4 ... etc etc .. just more versions of it .. but spreading the drop chance of rare items among all high level monsters in nightmare and hell will indeed eliminate all Baal runs .. and remove the problem of boss (X) drop item (Y) after being killed 2000 times .. this way rare items can be obtained but you can't hunt a specific boss for it .. all you need is to just play the game normally over and over as it was designed by the Dev team.

Also if they still have the XP bonus system (which rewards the player for combo kills and being an efficient killing machine with extra XP) it could be used so that the better you are wasting monsters left and right the higher the chance they will drop better items .. this way it will encourage team work and encourage people to play the whole game being as efficient as possible to hit the highest combo/killing streak possible.

 

[Edairu]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I think a simpler way to go about this is have each boss have a "first kill drop rate". This exists in D2, but its not vastly different from each kill thereafter. In D3 they could dramatically lower drops each time a boss monster is killed.

The problem is the community will always, undoubtedly find the best place to level, the best place for loot, etc. A similar problem to maximizing skills builds. No matter what precautions Blizzard takes, people will always find the best of the best. So I can see why this is such a difficult issue to take on.

 

[ThomasJ]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I'm sure there will be alot of other runs people can do for fun.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

The problem is the community will always, undoubtedly find the best place to level, the best place for loot, etc. A similar problem to maximizing skills builds. No matter what precautions Blizzard takes, people will always find the best of the best. So I can see why this is such a difficult issue to take on.

Maybe .. but if the chance of finding rare items is adjusted respectively to a decent number relating to each monster's level and got spread all over the game monsters (the higher the monster level the better the chance of rare drop) it will work better ... there will be many places for item hunting .. not one or two specific ones or bosses.


Ex:
Fallen Shaman has a 0.0005% chance of dropping a very rare item
A Blood Lord has a 0.003% chance of dropping a very rare item
A Boss like Thousand Pounder has a 0.009% of dropping a very rare item

And so on.

This will encourage players to kill all monsters they encounter instead of skipping through the whole game mindlessly.



Also tying certain items with certain bosses is a bad idea .. leaving it random and vague is better (still bosses will drop quality items .. not stupid quivers .. but random quality items) .. this will reduce farming and runs and increase trade greatly.

 

[gerbele]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I've got two solutions to help with this.

1. Within each game, increase the amount of XP you get based on the number of monsters you kill. For example, after killing 200 monsters, you get 1.5x...after 500, you get 2.0x.

2. What if each game had a very small handful of monsters; 2-3 (glowing with an aura) that had a greatly increased chance of droping an item...or was guaranteed to drop an unique or set item (even higher than bosses)? These monsters are chosen at random so you would have to play through the different areas to find them.

 

[Ishtor]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I've got two solutions to help with this.

1. Within each game, increase the amount of XP you get based on the number of monsters you kill. For example, after killing 200 monsters, you get 1.5x...after 500, you get 2.0x.

2. What if each game had a very small handful of monsters; 2-3 (glowing with an aura) that had a greatly increased chance of droping an item...or was guaranteed to drop an unique or set item (even higher than bosses)? These monsters are chosen at random so you would have to play through the different areas to find them.

that xp thing would be a good idea, but not fair to all classes i think. certain classes are better designed to kill multiple enimes at the same time, and they would have an unfair advantage in leveling. also if this was the case, i owuld never exit a game untill everythi worth killing was dead. If i am done playing i would just minamize wow, and for people that work from ( like i soon will ) i will be able to stop and go in the same game between calls ( i work in call center) i cant wait to get payed to play D3.

your second state needs a little work, no mob needs to be to have guaranteed drop of a unique. haveing a buff on it how to increase the chance of droping a item would be oke, how about a shrine instead that give us lets say an extra 100 mf or something simple like that?

 

[raveharu]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

There is no way to prevent "Baal runs".

Undeniably players will ALWAYS look for best dungeons in the game that gives the best drops/EXP, and so far all the suggestions to "prevent" doesn't sound feasible at all...

However, as most of the posts are targeted at D2's perspective, the game has far too many exploits, which Blizzard has already looked at and addressed, but not officially.

D2:
We had cheap, easy to get TPs and WPs conveniently placed at every major dungeon. All we had to do is teleport and find the next level, then TP for party members. :yawn:

D3:
Bashiok has hinted that dungeons would be like Arcane Sanctuary V2.0. I guess you know what that means...
WPs and TPs, so far no updates on this yet but I think they would be nerfed to prevent abuse.
Teleport has been modified so that wizards can't pass through walls,doors or any obstructions until they are destroyed.

 

[Astroquicky]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Maybe they can adjust the loot rate for creature X dynamically based on the number of times creature X has been killed by the community as a whole? I'm not sure how feasible that is, but if it turns out that Baal runs give a lot of loot and the whole community starts doing Baal runs, the loot rate could be adjusted until people start realizing the loot rate is dropping and have to find something new. If you keep dynamically adjusting, the loot rates will even out automatically so that the whole game world is equally worth exploring.

Just a n00b suggestion from a n00b player .

 

[kreeper]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I've got two solutions to help with this.

1. Within each game, increase the amount of XP you get based on the number of monsters you kill. For example, after killing 200 monsters, you get 1.5x...after 500, you get 2.0x.

2. What if each game had a very small handful of monsters; 2-3 (glowing with an aura) that had a greatly increased chance of droping an item...or was guaranteed to drop an unique or set item (even higher than bosses)? These monsters are chosen at random so you would have to play through the different areas to find them.

Blizzard already stated that the quicker you kill monsters in sucesscion the more experience you get. So kill faster more XP gained, your number 1 is already solved.

The second one however does not sound good at all. They had Champion monsters, and Super Unique monsters that randomly spawned all over in D2 that no one farmed. They also had aruas and special abilities/resistances and also a better drop rate, yet no one farmed them. No matter how many mobs you make that have good drop rates ones always going to be more convenient or easy. Also why should a random lesser demon have a comparable drop rate to Diablo, Meph, or Baal? I mean do you really think they are packing better gear than the Three Prime Evils?

 

[JonoLith]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Actually limiting it to the bosses only will still create the same problem .. we will still have Ball run no.1 .. no.2 .. no.3 and no.4 ... etc etc .. just more versions of it .. but spreading the drop chance of rare items among all high level monsters in nightmare and hell will indeed eliminate all Baal runs .. and remove the problem of boss (X) drop item (Y) after being killed 2000 times .. this way rare items can be obtained but you can't hunt a specific boss for it .. all you need is to just play the game normally over and over as it was designed by the Dev team.

Ooooh, I actually like this idea better. It is shiny, and is more in line with my intentions. I certainly intended "Boss Fights" to mean "Random Encountered Mobs You Find that are Crazy" and not "Static Bosses that Always Stand in One Spot."

As far as I'm concerned if the Static Bosses dropped good loot for me once and then never again, I'd be more than happy with that. Reward me for exploration and killing monsters more than killing one big monster please!

 

[Edairu]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Maybe they can adjust the loot rate for creature X dynamically based on the number of times creature X has been killed by the community as a whole? I'm not sure how feasible that is, but if it turns out that Baal runs give a lot of loot and the whole community starts doing Baal runs, the loot rate could be adjusted until people start realizing the loot rate is dropping and have to find something new. If you keep dynamically adjusting, the loot rates will even out automatically so that the whole game world is equally worth exploring.

Just a n00b suggestion from a n00b player .

Wow, this is a very interesting idea.

So let me try to clarify...
Let's use D2 as an example. Everybody loves Baal runs, we all know this. His minions give out the most exp, best loot, and are all in one accessible place. So let's say after about a few weeks of non-stop Baal runs from the majority of players. Baal's rates start dropping to adjust with the vast number of people killing him. After about a month, Baal isn't really worth it anymore.

So the community finds a new place, Pindleskin. Everybody wants to kill Pindleskin now, and as they do his rates start to drop as well. In the meantime, since Baal is being ignored his rates begin to rise toward their original value (To prevent nerfing Baal for the rest of eternity). Taking players away from Pindleskin back to Baal.

Is that the general idea? Certainly unique, not sure how it would work out. But props to you for coming up with something original. :thumbup:

 

[Bad Ash]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Blizzard already stated that the quicker you kill monsters in sucesscion the more experience you get. So kill faster more XP gained, your number 1 is already solved.

I think his idea wasnt about succession but overall. so if you spend 30 minutes in a game and kill 250 monsters you get a 1.5 exp gain and THEN go kill Baal (for example) because you put in the time into the game to get the exp gain as opposed to rushing baal and killing him in 5 minutes.


I like the idea of having multiple places to farm, because the community will farm regardless.

(Dont freak out at this) but WoW actually has a really good farming system. People farm badges from heroic dungeons and it really helps ease up on the monotony of doing the same thing over and over. it works.

I would be happy if there were 5 areas (say all 5 act bosses) that had the same exp, and same or somewhat varied loot tables that all take approximately the same amount of time. This way I can choose who I want to do, gives me different options and keeps the game more fresh. (And I am talking about group games...not like kill meph 1,000 times individually for loot)

 

[Astroquicky]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

Wow, this is a very interesting idea.

So let me try to clarify...
Let's use D2 as an example. Everybody loves Baal runs, we all know this. His minions give out the most exp, best loot, and are all in one accessible place. So let's say after about a few weeks of non-stop Baal runs from the majority of players. Baal's rates start dropping to adjust with the vast number of people killing him. After about a month, Baal isn't really worth it anymore.

So the community finds a new place, Pindleskin. Everybody wants to kill Pindleskin now, and as they do his rates start to drop as well. In the meantime, since Baal is being ignored his rates begin to rise toward their original value (To prevent nerfing Baal for the rest of eternity). Taking players away from Pindleskin back to Baal.

Is that the general idea? Certainly unique, not sure how it would work out. But props to you for coming up with something original. :thumbup:

Yes, that's exactly the idea.

You automatically change loot rates depending on how much monsters are being exploited so that no single monster will be "the best" for gaining loot. You could do the same with experience, which actually makes even more sense. As the community gets more experienced with doing Baal runs (writing guides on how to do it most effectively, helping eachother out, etc.), the experience gained in doing so reduces until the community starts looking for experience elsewhere and gradually "loses" its experience in doing Baal runs, until eventually the loot rates start raising again.

At some point somebody will notice the loot rates have increased again, so then everyone will return to Baal runs, etc. If you'd have only 2 monsters in the whole Diablo world, this would mean that the whole community would go from A to B and back, but if you have dozens of bosses and hundreds of different creatures, with these automatic adjustments no boss will be the best at any time, because the whole community will be evenly spread out between the different bosses.

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

How do you propose doing this for single-player?

 

[Astroquicky]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

How do you propose doing this for single-player?

I'll be perfectly honest here... I have no idea .

But... here's my take. Either you don't adjust at all, just like it's in D2 now, which would not really solve anything I guess. Or you adjust only with patches, which would probably be way too infrequently and thus no help either.

Or... you adjust much more aggressively than in multiplayer, i.e. where in the online realms it would take hundreds or thousands of Baal runs from many different players to trigger an adjustment, on single player it could maybe only take a dozen baal runs to have the loot/exp rate be adjusted, so that in both cases a couple weeks of heavy Baal runs would cause the loot rate to drop. Actually... I think in multiplayer I would let the adjustment be based on time, so that three weeks of heavy Baal runs would trigger an adjustment, whereas in single player I would let it be based on numbers of kills, since every person in single player plays at different rates.

Note I'm just improvising numbers here. I have no idea what numbers it would take to get it balanced.

 

[Bad Ash]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I'll be perfectly honest here... I have no idea .

But... here's my take. Either you don't adjust at all, just like it's in D2 now, which would not really solve anything I guess. Or you adjust only with patches, which would probably be way too infrequently and thus no help either.

Or... you adjust much more aggressively than in multiplayer, i.e. where in the online realms it would take hundreds or thousands of Baal runs from many different players to trigger an adjustment, on single player it could maybe only take a dozen baal runs to have the loot/exp rate be adjusted, so that in both cases a couple weeks of heavy Baal runs would cause the loot rate to drop. Actually... I think in multiplayer I would let the adjustment be based on time, so that three weeks of heavy Baal runs would trigger an adjustment, whereas in single player I would let it be based on numbers of kills, since every person in single player plays at different rates.

Note I'm just improvising numbers here. I have no idea what numbers it would take to get it balanced.

Blizzard could have a set number of kills needed to lower the exp and loot drops and just divide it by the number of people playing d3? players 8 or something like that to get the affect for 1 player playing alone...right?

 

[Krugar]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I suppose it could. I'm having an hard time conceptualizing it. I do like the idea, but something really is telling me this wouldn't work so well under SP conditions. I just can't put my finger on it, yet. It's also 3:00 am. So maybe that's why

In all honesty though I must say the way this was set in D2 was just fine, in my opinion. What D2 lacked was quantity. Let me explain...

After some time (aka patches) we got essentially two type of runs. Area runs and Mob runs. Now, this is pretty much the two building blocks of item hunting based games. In D2 we got one, maybe two (I'm thinking Pits and AT and ignoring LK since this is only doable under single-player) runnable areas and around 4 Mob runs (Andy, Meph, Pindle, Baal). To me the idea of having two different type of runs pretty much covers it all in the context of D2. So I don't really see D2 as a fail.

However, there was the problem of quantity. 2+4 means 6 runnable targets and this is indeed very little, conveying perhaps the feeling everyone is having there was very little diversity in D2 for the endgame.

What I am trying to establish is perhaps you guys are thinking of a solution to a problem that isn't there. What failed in D2 was diversity yes. But in terms of number of runnable targets. Not the mechanism itself. All games I know of that are based on item hunting run along the principles of Mob and Area runs. D2 was no different on that regard.

Now, I always felt D2 didn't really explored this to its best. Baal runs were the only really interesting run since it involved moving through 3 areas and face a series of scripted encounters in the end, all the while battling mobs that could indeed provide hefty rewards on their own. I'm ignoring Baal rushing here. That's not the point I'm trying to make...

However, everything else was pretty much repetitive mindless hack and slash. Meanwhile certain potentially interesting targets where completely forgotten. For instance, Ancient Kaa The Soulless could have been made a fun mob to run if only they would have provided him with a Pindle-like TC and better odds. The fact this is one of the most dangerous mobs in the game, coupled with the fact it randomly spawns in one of the false Tal Rasha's Tomb could have made him a fun target. But no... no Kaa. Another very interesting mob would have been Izual, assuming they buffed him considerably. Having to search the Plains of Despair for him every time, just helps against the mindless Pindle-like runs.

Certainly D3 can come up with more run targets. After all this will be a much bigger game. But it could also come up with new types of targets. Besides Mob Runs and Area Runs, I always loved the concept of quest-like runs that was present in some of the earlier games of this type. These are essentially runs that involve a lot of time and preparation and players have to go through a series of challenges (mazes, other mobs, completing tasks, etc) in order to reach their final target.

 

[kreeper]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

I think his idea wasnt about succession but overall. so if you spend 30 minutes in a game and kill 250 monsters you get a 1.5 exp gain and THEN go kill Baal (for example) because you put in the time into the game to get the exp gain as opposed to rushing baal and killing him in 5 minutes.


I like the idea of having multiple places to farm, because the community will farm regardless.

(Dont freak out at this) but WoW actually has a really good farming system. People farm badges from heroic dungeons and it really helps ease up on the monotony of doing the same thing over and over. it works.

I would be happy if there were 5 areas (say all 5 act bosses) that had the same exp, and same or somewhat varied loot tables that all take approximately the same amount of time. This way I can choose who I want to do, gives me different options and keeps the game more fresh. (And I am talking about group games...not like kill meph 1,000 times individually for loot)

The only thing I have against getting Loot in WoW is that it is rediculously easy. I suck at WoW and I have an 80 rogue pretty decked out, Kreeper actually, on Sisters of Elune. I played for a couple of months, 2-3? Diablo is ALL about loot thats the only things seperating you from the rest, who has better gear. To make the only rewarding aspect of the game easily gotten would ruin it. While I liked the idea you posted I still feel Diablo should keep the single player aspect, if your talking about farming in groups as a MUST then im not for that, because the thing about Diablo was having a super bad-*** character and killing anything on my own. And personally I was alright with the last loot system because everyone was on an even playing field, anyone could easily kill meph and if you put in the time and effort you get the gear, easy simple and rewarding to everyone. The only downfalls were ninjas but that has been fixed by seperate tables for everyone, and not enough Bosses to farm. There were Pindle, and Meph really. Baal was all about experience and oh lets just kill him while we are here, Diablo drops were not good and took wayyyy to long to get, and Andy wasn't so bad, but when theres Meph and Pindle to be had who cares about her.

Originally Posted by Astroquicky
I'll be perfectly honest here... I have no idea .

But... here's my take. Either you don't adjust at all, just like it's in D2 now, which would not really solve anything I guess. Or you adjust only with patches, which would probably be way too infrequently and thus no help either.

Or... you adjust much more aggressively than in multiplayer, i.e. where in the online realms it would take hundreds or thousands of Baal runs from many different players to trigger an adjustment, on single player it could maybe only take a dozen baal runs to have the loot/exp rate be adjusted, so that in both cases a couple weeks of heavy Baal runs would cause the loot rate to drop. Actually... I think in multiplayer I would let the adjustment be based on time, so that three weeks of heavy Baal runs would trigger an adjustment, whereas in single player I would let it be based on numbers of kills, since every person in single player plays at different rates.

Note I'm just improvising numbers here. I have no idea what numbers it would take to get it balanced.

They could also just set it for each player since we have seperate loot tables now. So every players drops would vary, one person notices hes getting crap from Baal so he moves on while the rest may still be getting good drops because they have not killed Baal a whole lot. But doing it as a community would ruin the experience for everyone because you would never know what to farm and only a few people would be up on it, ruining casual players fun. So simple, just have the adjustments seperate for each player so their drop rates vary accordingly to how many kills of each Boss they are present for.

 

[BarbaQ]

Re: No Baal Runs!!!

What worked in D2 before 109 was the diablos armament, just make the end bosses so tough that they are hardest to kill alone and even horribly difficult in party. Also given the option of 1 shot 1 kill feature like we've seen on early part of the D3 gameplay vid with the siegebreaker, that would also make HC players feet crumble and have some serious hard time with bosses.

First thought when seeing that 1 shot 1 kill thingy by siegebreaker was, OMG this is coolest finisher ever. Now we're getting finishers like in MK series!? YEAH!

And back to the baalrun part, just when u happen to die with battling the boss u would lose chance of getting so great items from it (SC), in HC u automatically instadie ofc. Who said that the game suppose to be easy!? :crazyeyes:

And also constantly when youd keep going on and not getting yourself killed, the loot gain would be come more better and better but if youd die the counter would stop and reset itself to start from bottom again. Ofc in HC this would be different due to instadeath.