NF's Guide To Efficient Magic Finding

NF's Guide To Efficient Magic Finding

Well Nightfish is currently having trouble accessing the forums due to some password issues, and none of the mods/admins are even being of any help to that problem.

So for the time being I'm posting another guide Nightfish has wrote. I just read through it and it's pretty nice if you need some tips on MFing.

So here we go!


NF's Guide To Efficient Magic Finding

0. Introduction
1. Targets
2. Wherever you run, there you find
3. MF Gear
4. Mercenaries
5. Player Settings
6. The Gist Of It
7. Tools


0. Introduction

Hey folks, I'm back with another, albeit short and simple guide. This time it's not about a character but about MF. Magic finding is definetly one of the most interesting aspects of D2 for a lot of people. A fair share of the questions asked on the forums are where to run for what item, what char to use, what players setting and how much MF is needed. Astonishingly, there seems to be no MF guide out there, yet. (at least I didn't find any) I'm trying to change that with this document.

Before I get started on the guide I'll explain a few general things and clarify some questions that will surely arise as you read this. First of all, there is no right or wrong here. A lot of the choices are based mostly on personal preferences, i.e. what target you run, what char you use, etc. What I try to do is to minimise the amount of time I actually need to spend MFing. As I said, there is no one way of doing this. But there is a difference in how efficient your runs are, depending on what chars/equipment you have available and what items you are running for.

At this point the guide assumes that you know what a treasure class is and that you know what item belongs in which treasure class. I may - and probably will - brush treasure classes and drop rates but I won't go into detail for the first draft of the guide. If you don't know anything about treasure classes, don't worry, you don't need to know that to use the guide. Knowing more about the inner workings of the game just makes it easier for you to understand what I'm saying and to double check if it's not just a load of ....


1. Targets

In this section I'll list the common MF targets, or rather, the targets I prefer, and give a short note on when you should be running them. I'll also give you a couple suggestions on what chars to use and how long a run should take you. For detailed information about MF gear and chars refer to those sections. If you need to know what TC your item is in, check your fara report, that includes TC info.

1.1 Nightmare Mephisto (NM Meph)

If you have absolutely no items at all, this is where you should start. I wouldn't suggest to MF any targets lower than NM Meph, simply because he is very easy to run and the rewards are good. Step one is to get a good map and then keep that. (A good map is one where the stairs down is pretty much next to the waypoint.)

What chars to use?
Pretty much every character *can* run NM Meph, but not every char is really well suited. Among the best chars are FO/Meteor sorcs. Teleport gets you to Meph in a hurry and static field is always good vs bosses. Generally, caster chars are good to MF when you have no items at all because they do not require a good weapon to be efficient.

How long should a run take?
Definetly not long. Average run times are between 30s and 60s depending on what you mule, how long it takes you to load up the game, how good your map is, etc, etc. Here you can see how make a new char makes sense for MFing. If your old char needs 2-3 minutes to run meph and you need to do a few hundred runs it may very well be worth the effort to make a new runner.

What items does this get me?
NM Meph can drop you useful stuff, but nothing all that rare. He caps out at TC 54 as with all monsters the odds for his highest TC are rather poor. I wouldn't recommend running him if you're specifically looking for a TC54 item. Getting back to the efficiency thing, you *will* eventually get the item from him if you keep running but if you run something else you will have that item a lot earlier. I'd say you can reasonably expect him to drop items between TC6 and TC51. Vamp Gaze, Shafstop, most of the 1.09 class specific uniques are some of the things you can hope to see.

When should I be running NM Meph?
If you just need a couple items to get your characters going, this is where you should be. Especially if you are not ready for hell yet. Bascially you can (easily) beat hell with just items NM Meph gives you. You won't be flying through the game as you would with a windforce or something but NM Meph's stuff gets the job done. If you're on your way to the grail this is just a first stop until you are ready for...


1.2 Hell Mephisto (Hell Meph)

If you're not grailing (trying to accquire all the items the game has to offer) or are looking for the really high end items for other reasons, this is your final stop. Genereally speaking I'd say Hell Meph is the best MF target there is. Run times are very low, rewards are excellent and the run is very easy.

What chars to use?
See NM Meph (suggested level 70+)

How long should a run take?
As with NM Meph this should take about a minute at most.

What items does this get me?
Here's where Hell differs from NM, payoffs are better. Hell Meph can drop up to TC 78 which includes items like Eaglehorn, Stormlash or Arkaine's Valor. That said, his chance for TC78 is horrible so don't expect him to actually give you any of those. Up to TC72/75 is what I'd reasonably expect him to give me. That includes items like the Reaper's Toll, Wizardspike, Homunculus, the unique Phase Blades, Baranar's Star, Harlequin Crest, etc, etc.

When should I be running Hell Meph?
If you are not quite ready for the final step towards the grail yet and just want to find a couple gold and green items *now*. Also if you're still looking for something specific that Hell Meph has a good chance of giving you. Assuming you're going for the grail, do not continue to run Meph until you have everything he can give you. That's very inefficient. Personally I liked to run Meph along side with my final target, just because high level MFing tends to have long dry spells where you just don't find anything useful at all. Then it's always nice to be able to return to meph for an hour or so to get a bunch of items.


1.3 The alvl 85 Areas / Baal

This is it, the final destination as far as MFing is concerend. This is where you need to be for the high end items. Oh, yeah, if you don't know what alvl 85 areas are go search the forums. The relevant ones for this guide are the Pit and the Worldstone Keep.

What chars to use?
A lot of chars can run areas. Again, it comes down to who can do so the most efficiently. What you need now is somebody who can wear a lot of MF and kill a lot of monsters in a hurry. And he needs to be able to take on Baal if you chose to run the WS K. As before, there is no one answer here, and what char you can use depends on how rich you are item wise. Personally I've used about a dozen different builds to run areas at one time or another and I've always prefered my Fishymancer over anything else. It's safest, kills fastest while wearing the most MF. Other options inlcude Meteorb sorcs, CL/FO Sorcs, LF-hybrid zons, Assassins with DeathSentry, Hammerdins, Winddruids, etc. The reason why I like my necromancer is because he can easily take on *anything* that can spawn in the WS K without risking an untimely death. (I play HC)

How long should a run take?
As areas are variable it's hard to give a good estimate here. It also depends on which one you are running. If you're in the WS K and are going for Baal in the end that may take a bit longer than just clearing the pit. You'll also improve your time with patience and newfound items. Personally it takes me about 6-7 minutes to clear WS K 2, 3, the Throne of Destruction and kill Baal and his minions.

What items does this get me?
Tal Rasha's Armour, IK Armour, Windforce, Schaeffer's Hammer, Messerschimdt's Reaver, this is where it's at. In these areas *every* item in the game can drop.

When should I be running alvl 85 areas/baal?
You have what you need from meph and have lots of time to spend. Seriously, this will not give you the quick results you've come to appreciate from Mephisto. Running areas takes patience. But then again, if the high end items where easy to find the game would lose it's appeal much faster.

Should I just run / teleport to Baal?
This has it's own section because I see people making this "mistake" a lot. No, don't just go straight for Baal. Always fight your way through the keep. The keep is one of the best places to shop for items, consider baal just the icing on the cake. Not to say that baal didn't give me a lot of great items, but so did the keep. Take Caducuses for example: Baal gave me my first golden one but the keep gave me another one in gold and 2 in green. Most of the TC 87 items will probably come from the Keep, in the long run. The thing about baal is that if you can get him to drop a TC87 you can pretty much bet that it will be set or better.

Baal never gives me anything!
Uh, that's not a question... Anyway, I see this very often, too. The main reason for that is high expectations. "Wow, it's baal, he'd better give me a windforce in the next 10 runs". And that's not the way it works. With baal you need to be patient. I've done over a thousand baal / keep runs and trust me, good stuff *will* drop.

Why didn't you list Pindle?
Because I don't like him. With pindle you spend about 50% of your time outside of the game. Not to mention that he cannot drop Tyrael's Might and if you want that you need to run Baal / alvl 85 areas after all and since Tyrael's Might is so very, very rare everything I found from pindle will have dropped again by the time I finally get that last item. So it's more efficient to just go to the alvl 85 areas right away.


2. Wherever you run, there you find

Congratulations, you're still reading. This section is just a brief interlude with the aim to get you thinking a bit. Let's say you've had most of your item luck with pindle... Ever wonder why? Well, if you do 90% of your MFing on pindle that's where you'll get your items. If you just compare those results with what baal or the pit gave you of course pindle will win. The same if you compare the pit to the WS K or if you compare different amounts of MF, or different chars. Try to be unbiased when you compare things.


3. MF Gear

In this section I'll try to give a brief overview on the items you might want to equip your char with. There'll be a section for poor people and one for the richer guys but I am not aiming for completeness here. For characters I'll be looking at the Meteorb sorc and the Fishymancer again. Maybe I'll expand this section in the future but I think you can figure out a decent MF setup on your own.

3.1 Meteorb Sorc - Poor

Weapon 1 / Shield 1: +Skills item for killing / Shield for resis (3 PDiamond Shield)
Weapon 2 / Shield 2: Gull / Rhyme Runeword
Armour: 4 PTopaz Gothic Plate
Helm: 3 PTopaz Crown
Belt: Goldwrap
Gloves: Chance Guards / Frostburn
Boots: Rare boots or a boot / ammy combo that gives MF (vidala, tancred)
Ammy: Magic / Rare ammy or boot ammy combo (see above)
Ring/Ring: 2 x Nagelring


3.2 Meteorb Sorc - Rich

Weapon 1 / Shield 1: Tal Rasha's Orb/ Moser's Blessed Circle (2 PDia)
Weapon 2 / Shield 2: Gull or 2 x ist ali baba / Rhyme Runeword
Armour: Tal's (PTopaz)
Helm: Tal's (PTopaz)
Belt: Tal's
Gloves: Chance Guards / Frostburn
Boots: War Travs
Ammy: Tal's
Ring/Ring: 2 x Nagelring


3.3 Fishymancer - Poor

Weapon 1 / Shield 1: +Skills items
Weapon 2 / Shield 2: Gull / Rhyme Runeword
Armour: 4 PTopaz Gothic Plate
Helm: 3 PTopaz Crown
Belt: Goldwrap
Gloves: Chance Guards
Boots: Rare boots or a boot / ammy combo that gives MF (vidala, tancred)
Ammy: Magic / Rare ammy or boot ammy combo (see above)
Ring/Ring: 2 x Nagelring / 2 x wisp projector


3.2 Fishymancer - Rich

Weapon 1 / Shield 1: Arm of King Leoric / Homunculus OR Staff with teleport charges (Naj's)
Weapon 2 / Shield 2: Gull or 2 x ist ali baba / Homunculus (PDia)
Armour: Tal's (PTopaz) / Skullders (PTopaz) / Enigma Runeword
Helm: Shako (PTopaz)
Belt: Goldwrap
Gloves: Chance Guards / Frostburn
Boots: War Travs
Ammy: Mara's Kaleidoskope / teleport charges rare ammy

Ring/Ring: 2 x Nagelring / 2 x wisp projector


Aside from that you can stuff your inventory with MF charms. Gheeds and 7% MF small charms, namely. But do keep a 4x2 space clean of items. That enables you to pick up at least one item and that's really the minimum that you need. If you cannot pick up an item without opening your inventory and using the cube you lose a lot of time which reduces your overall efficiency.


4. Mercenaries

Mercs, some love them, some hate them. When MFing they are a big help for both of the chars I mentioned. Depending on your target you will want your merc to do different things. Oh yeah, we're talking about act 2 mercs here, of course. Might for the 'mancer, defiance or holy freeze for the sorc.

4.1 Mercs vs Mephisto (Meteorb Merc)

What you want here is to have a merc that stays alive and if possible helps you kill Meph. What does he need on his gear? Leech is unimporant since you cannot leech from Meph in the first place. What he does need is resistances, damage reduction, slows target by X% and maybe crushing blow. Here are some gear suggestions on how to get that:

Weapon: Kelpie Snare, The Reaper's Toll, Hone Sundan
Armour: Shaftstop, Venom Ward
Helm: Guillaume's Face, Vampire Gaze


4.2 Mercs vs Baal (Fishy Merc)

This guy needs killing power in areas as well as vs an act boss so he needs to be a bit more versatile on his gear than the sorc's merc.

Weapon: Hone Sundan, Tomb Reaver, pretty much anything that deals good damage and has leech
Armour: Shaftstop
Helm: Guillaume's Face, Vamp Gaze

If you are running baal definetly have crushing blow. Either on your weapon or from guillaume's face.


5. Player Settings

Another controversial thing, and probably the main reason why I started writing this. A lot of people run on players 8 just because they think it gives them more items. In a way that is true, but going on players 8 is rarely the most efficient way to get sets and uniques. Allow me to explain:

When running areas, most of your sets and uniques will be dropped by bosses and these guys will give you exactly one item on all player settings. But going on players 8 will give 450% extra life to everything, which increases your run times by quite a lot, definetly more than it's worth. This may be untrue for you if you're playing a ridiculously overpowered character, but even if you are I think a fishymancer on players 1 will be able to MF faster than you on players 8. That's the observation I've made from comparing my results with those of others, at least.

Pretty much the same thing holds true for act bosses. While the no-drop chance decreases as players go up it is not an efficient way to increase your gains. Especially baal has a very low no drop chance to begin with and contrary to what people think he can still drop you a "nothing" on players 3. (I have had that happen to me in testing). But as players go up, crushing blow becomes less efficient. Essentially the time it takes you to kill baal doubles on players 3 (always true, unless you have static field, in that case time goes up by 50%) but you don't get twice the amount of loot. I'd estimate you get about 10% more but I'd need to do more runs to test that or dig into the code.

Bottom Line: Looking for items? Do it on players 1. So sayeth the fish.


6. The Gist Of It

If you're really impatient just read this and nothing else. This is my 3 lines on how to get the grail in a hurry:

1. Build Meteorb Sorc, Run NM Meph and later on Hell Meph
2. Build Fishymancer, Run WS K / Baal and/or the Pit
3. Run on Players 1

This is how I got to within about 15 items of the selffound grail and within just a single item of the traded grail. I am currently doing it again in HC and I'm at about 85% completion there.


7. Tools

Can be found on this page: http://atma.diabloii.net/spf/

Especially ATMA is truly essential for every SP player setting out on his quest for the grail. Flavie / Fara are also very important to keep track of your findings. The medieval mart can do similar things with more effort required on your part.



Okay, that's it for the first draft of this guide, I hope you like it. I know there's not that much information in there but maybe it's useful for somebody anyway. Feedback is appreciated, but keep in mind that this is a guide based on *my* experience with MF and that I said several times that this is not the only way to do it. I just believe it's one of the more efficient ways.

 

Looks good so far NF, a few comments:

• For the items for each build, give a total MF using your list for each build, easier to compare that way.
• link to the list of Alvl 85 areas would be good, rather than tell me to search forums. Im lazy, and so are others.
• Even if you dont like pindle much, i think he deserves a section since he is very popular and some builds can do him incredibly quick with lots of MF.
• Eventually include item choices for other popular MF builds such as hammerdin, blizz sorc, LF zon.
• j00 pwn.
• You might want to give each place to MF a grade/score, in terms of speed, safety and items possible/likely.

Well done NF, now you just need to log on and get going with Version 2!

 

very nice write up, nf!
I have stumbled over a minor typo: the topic 3.2 Meteorb Sorc Rich appears twice. I think it should say 3.4 Fishymancer Rich instead in the second case.

I think I will go back to my beloved ROF rather than keeping visiting Mr Pindle. I see your point and agree completely.

 

I think this is very well done. The section of when to run certain areas and what to expect there will be especially useful to newer players who have probably heard somewhere that one place is always the best to run.

To nitpick, if you are planning a final revision, there is one small error even though I know what you mean when you say it. In the players setting section you state that players 8 gives a 450% extra life in each monster. It gives 450% times as much life, which is a 350% extra life. I think most everyone knows what you mean so it isn't worth making a revision over but if you make one anyway might as well fix that.

 

I fixed that along with another minor typo on the helm.

 

Some info I would like to have in a MF guide:

1) The exact mechanics of droppping uniques/sets. Some math should be nice. (Thrugg needed for this) At least you should mention the dimnishing MF effects (absolute/effective MF) mlvl/qlvl of items issue, why is so hard to find TC3, why is so hard to find unique wands/staves. The obvious thing that MF doesn't affect rune drops is not obvious for newbies.

2) Targets. You don't like Pindle (I don't like him too), but some players swear on him. He is easier to run than Baal for most builds. Also you have completely skipped super-uniques (Eldritch, Shenk, Tresh). NM Andariel is well-known to have best chances for SoJ, that is information worth to mention. List of all lvl 85 areas needed. Cows are something... , I know they are more runehunters targets, but I feel it is connected somehow. (Same for LK)

3) Some list of items with MF for each item slot as it is in the arreat summit.

4) Builds: a lot more viable MF builds are needed, for example I didn't try a meteorb, but I think the pure Blizzard sorc is far more effective with Mephisto. EDIT: Barbarians have Find Item skill which improves their chances with 1,5 muliply factor from some targets.

5) Mercs: Again the obvious thing that mercenary's kill will apply your MF+his MF (not only his MF) is not obvious for everyone. For builds that are very good at killing, but not as good in tanking, I wouldn't recommend the CB for merc, there are better items that helps him survive... CB is not so effective when the boss has half life and with static field... Especially for Baal-runs merc should have more specific gear to survive.

6) Player settings: I agree with you with P1, but if you can do the same area in almost the same time, it's better to raise it. Again some info and table with no-drop reduction with the increased player settings would be nice. No-drops reduction for bosses is worth to mention too.

I hope my notes will be treated as positive criticism. I hope your work will continue and will result in the best guide ever.

EDIT: just one more thought - description of moat trick for Meph. He is really the main MF source, and this info can help the newbies.

 

Nice job!

I definitely agree with you about running it on players 1. Especially for Baal runs. However, in the WSK and in the Pits, it makes pretty good sense to kick it up to players 3 or 4 instead of 8. You make it seem like its either black or white - 1 or 8 players. When in fact you can alter the drop chances VS monster HP equation much more finely than that. So, while it is correct that you always get an item from bosses regardless of the players setting, you can increase your chances of regular monsters dropping an item by quite a bit while still not increasing the hitpoints to ridiculous levels. Then, for WSK runs, you drop back down to players 1 for killing Baal. I know that at players 5 the chance of no drop goes down to nearly 0, but even if you do the keep at players 3 you will see a lot more drops in general.

The other thing that I would definitely disagree with is your assertion that rich MFers - especially ones using caster-type chars - should wear Nagelrings. On all of my MF casters I have switched to 2X SoJ instead of Nagelrings. The goal with MF is to get the most drops as possible over time with as much MF as possible... up to a point. Given the diminshing returns on MF, having that extra 60% MF from two perfect Nagels will have less effect than than the increase in kill-speed from an extra +2 to all skills.

 

Great start NF!

I have just started MFing in Hell and was looking for a guide just like this one. I would like to know:

1) Are there better merc setups than just Act II MF wise?

2) What is the maximum viable MF possible with a given build?

3) How much MF do I need to make running worth while? (you may also want to talk about diminishing returns on great MF gear vs killing speed)

These are just some questions I, and others I think, have. I can't wait for revision 2. :thumbsup:

 

@LeorictheDark: Look at this
Be warned that dimnishing returns of MF are really strong, so I would say that the maximum reachable (around 1200%MF) is just crazy.

 

OK, so I did some number crunching, and the best layers setting for drops over time from regular monsters looks to be players 2. To get this I took the ATMA drop calc and added together the chance of dropping everything for a Cadaver (who appears in WSK2). I don't think this is quite accurate at the highest levels because I thought that above players 5 you had no chance of a "no-drop," but I think that the take-home message is the same. Then, I divided the chance of any item dropping by the monster HP scaler as the players level increases. Here's the result:

Code:

Number of Players	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Exp & HP Multiplier   1.0	1.5	2.0	2.5	3.0	3.5	4.0	4.5
Chance of item drop	0.375	0.612	0.759	0.857	0.909	0.952	0.967	0.983
Drop per monster HP	0.375	0.408	0.379	0.342	0.303	0.272	0.241	0.218
Baal’s item drop	4.79	5.70	5.**
Baal’s drop per HP	4.79	3.81	2.94

Basically, when you go from players 1 to players 2, you get a 63% increase in the chance of a monster dropping an item, but only a 50% increase in monster hitpoints. So /players 2 is probably the most efficient way to run the WSK.

For Baal drops, you are correct that at any setting above players 1, you are reducing the number of drops you will get per HP Baal has.

 

Speaking for Nightfish Again:
Nightfish Says:

 

@hrus: NF hates exploiting the horrible AI of monsters, so this is a no-no is his eyes, and thus he does not explain it.

crg

 

Ehh. OK. Just tanking him is the fastest way anyway...

 

Actually, I specifically ignored bosses/champs because they do not, in fact, drop the lion's share of the items. I don't know the exact number of boss packs that you are likely to run into in the WSK, but lets estimate that you do full clears of WSK1, 2, and 3. If you figure 4 unique monsters and 2 packs of champions, that's 12 gauranteed item drops per level irrespective of the players setting. So 36 total, plus 5 from Baal's minions so 41 items from champions.

Now, lets estimate that there are 100 monsters on each level of the WSK (my guess is that there are more, but I'm being conservative). That's 300 monsters that you kill. That gives 112 extra item drops at players 1 and 183 extra items at players 2. Adding in the drops from bosses, that gives us 153 items at players 1 and 224 at players 2. Then, scaling this by monster hitpoints, we get 153 at players 1 and 163 at players 2. While this isn't a huge difference, it is slightly better to do it at players 2.

On thinking about it a little though, the drops from champions/uniques are higher quality because they wont drop potions or scrolls and all of the items are at least magical. I don't know how to account for all of that, but if you account for item quality as well as item abundance, then you're almost certainly right that players 1 is the most efficient way to go about it. But hey, at least now you know why.

I also added information for Baal to my previous post.

 

Not that I encourage it, but sometimes it's the only way. Like when I started, running meph with my meteorb sorc who was using a pot helm with p-ruby, breast plate with 3x p-ruby, and some other crappy gear most people won't even pick up.

 

This is a nice guide!

I am going to make the case for the inclusion of NM Andy. While NM meph may be a better target as far as items go, some characters will have an easier time with Andy, and she can drop pretty nicely as well. I might suggest her for characters that are having trouble with NM meph, especially those with some sort of fire attack. When I first started my MF runs, I got really frustrated with Meph; it was taking too long, and it was way to risky. So, I did Andarial for a while. I picked up some equipment, and when I went back to NM Meph, things went a lot better. She is also good for ranged characters who don't want to use the moat trick on meph, since meph has some scary ranged attacks. Another advantage is that the monsters around her are usually easier to deal with than the council members and blood lords around Meph. To summarize: you might want to suggest Andy for characters that find they are struggling with NM Meph.

Also, links to item TCs and SU/Boss TC/mlvls would be nice addition. It's a quick way to answer the "Can X drop Y?" question.

Item TC/qlvl: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tokusanya/110_full_tc.txt
Monster TC/mlvl: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tokusanya/Monsters.htm

You might also want to include a section for those fun TC3 items for the grailers. Something along the line of what was found in this thread: http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=332101

 

One thing you should do is to take what each build does best and point that out, instead of pointing out what build does what area best. What I mean by that is, instead of saying:

Meph... use meterorb...

Say:

WW Barb... try the pit (or whereever you think a WW Barb should excel)

Otherwise, a very interesting read.

 

@whomhead: He meant the lion share of Sets and Uniques, not overall items.

 

Yeah, I figured that out after I went through all the work. But at least it was fun doing it! :uhhuh:

 

Looks good :thumbsup: allways thought there was a MF guide somewhere, or at least covering the basics..

Anyway, maybe it's a good idea to cover all of the lvl 85 area's shortely as to which character can run them best.. (just as a side coverage.. just so people know that the pits or WSK aren't the only options)
IE: Pits: physical / poison
Maggot Lair: Fire
You know, so you won't take your pure firesorc to the pits only to realise that it's packed with little red annoyances