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Need strategic advice: WW/ls hybrid against Bonenecs

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by Moritz, Oct 8, 2006.

  1. Moritz

    Moritz IncGamers Member

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    Need strategic advice: WW/ls hybrid against Bonenecs

    Hello,


    I play a ww/ls/kick/stun 65fc build. The stats and items are pretty ok but I lose like 70:30 or so against necs, ofc it's different against each single nec but basically the good ones are a huge issue for me.
    I know that defensive necros, or semi-defensive necros are one the biggest threats for an assassin of my kind, and i ve also read happy's and speeder's tactic section on necros.

    Vs necs, i play 86fhr, ~4k life, 6k ls, 7/3 kicks, 9fps trap set speed, 65fc, 59% clawblock and i use fury for high ow. I use BoS and always recast SM when I got time to do it. ww dmg and kick dmg depends ofc if i prebuff or not, but usually i dont because i consider it bm if the oppponent doesnt sorb or anything.


    Well, now my problem is, that hitting a necro with df or tele/whirl is a high risc. After landing on top of them, i often have to eat some bs/spears and its hard to get away again as they usually play 125fc.
    I personally found that its best for me to df + perform a short whirl and run away a little bit, then tele away. If i try to tele directly after attacking, i got clawblock, but i have to suffer a lot more hits because i sometimes get locked in a block/fhr animation for an instant.
    Sometimes trapping with ls seemed to work ok as well, but its hard to go offensive trap style with only 6k dmg. and i hate camping.

    with my old ww/kick/stun (pretty similar to speederländer's) it was easier i think, because i could occasionally lock necs down because i could focus on laying out wofs and my shadow master mbed them (due to max mb) very frequently.
    But now i cant rely on my sm's mbs anymore, although i play with 2 hard pts @ mb. locking a 125fc/86fhr nec down seems almost impossible now to me.


    Does anyone of you have some good advice? How to escape after hitting with df? Any special tips? Or is it normal that the good necs simply are superior to my build?


    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. HappyAssassin

    HappyAssassin IncGamers Member

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    Don't DF necromancers. The seeking nature of BS makes it very dangerous. Tele-ww them the same way as a BvC would, but don't triwhirl if there are spirits around. Do your run out, which is a good idea.

    You need to trap. Dueling with necromancers involves trading damage, it's jsut the way it is. Lacking raw WW damage, you need to stun them. If you chase like a dog after a hare, you will never get a trap lock. Circle them, make them stay on your screen if they want to duel. Use a mix of Wake and LS against necromancers. They are lockable just like anything else. Finally, don't play too conservative. Most of my wins vs. necromancers involve me taking a bunch of hits. If I lose 3/4 life, and they get locked, it doesn't matter that I'm low, because I can kill them at will. Ignore this advice if the Necro has excellent spear skills though. Honestly, against a top Necro, you just gotta accept the 50/50 ratio, and try and push it up with good play.
     
  3. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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    I've never played a ww/ls hybrid, but in my experience playing a trapper vs defensive necros, I often had to use wof and tele-fb to give additional stun so that my ls would have more time to hit. With 6k ls it's going to be difficult to use that against necros.

    Unfortunately WW isn't too effective vs necros either, 1: it hits golem/summons, 2: the can lock you with spear as you ww away from them and hit you with it.

    A number of pure wwsins I used to know avoided it altogether, using tele-dclaw to pk necros.
    Since you are a kicker hybrid, you can use dtalon once you've landed on the necro instead of dclaw. Note that kicker vs max block (vita is ez) necro is a difficult duel, so regardless which aspect of your hybrid you use, it will still be a difficult duel against top notch players.


    Best advice is to keep shadow recast at all times, minionstack with tele is the best way to avoid getting hit. If you tele on top of necros with minionstack, that will cause locked on spirits to miss. If a necro plays heavy def spirit, take your time, play careful, do minimal time stunlocks with wof, and try to minionstack yourself on top of him asap.
    With teeth/spear/spirit users tactics will differ, gg spear users are probably the largest threat.

    Hrm. *sifts through random videos*
    I don't have anything too useful to help out, but here are two random duels that should give you an idea of what kind of tactics (at least vs mediocre spear users) to use:
    http://uploadfile.putfile.com/videos/28017550656.avi (lol ez random)
    http://uploadfile.putfile.com/videos/28018574059.avi (I have trouble holding namelock on this one, requires a bit of chasing)
    Note these are done on a pure kicksin with maxed mb. So it will be more difficult for you, still same tactics apply.
     
  4. order

    order IncGamers Member

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    tactic wise a necro style requires both offensive and defensive play.

    the main problem i have is bspirits at close range when i move in for a ww attack. the ww clip idea does seem to work effective for the first 1-2 time and then go for a triwhirl to finish. minion stack is needed as often as possible. if the necro plays defensively i try and push them into the box type corners in which i have much more control over them. placing traps in a pentagonal formation far apart can help greatly on the defensive. often times they try attacking from different angles tele and tele away to find more traps in a different location. another hard trick to beat are the necros that boneprison around themselves when u move in for the ww. mainly the only way to handle these necros is to catch them into stunlock with mb allowing you that extra time to get in a quick clip before they have time to fully recover. 1 last tip for pub nec dueling.... hide your gold somewhere. necros burn through mana pots quickly which after a couple duels will cause them to be more conservative on their skill usage if they run out of gold.
     
  5. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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  6. matchuk

    matchuk IncGamers Member

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    wizadept and happy assasin im just curious which build is more effective vs smiters/hammers/ww barbs
    ww/stun/kicker build (like speederlander)
    or
    ww/traps/stun (like ww assasin)

    it seems the gear i got favors a more ww/kicker approach cos i havent got the wealth to reach 6k trap dmg but im worried a wwkicker cant do smiters and hammers since they are majority of the pk population

    also with my previous barb i found pure ww sins not a threat
     
  7. HappyAssassin

    HappyAssassin IncGamers Member

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    I think that against those specific builds, WW/Traps is better. I don't say this based on some kind of arrogance, I've just dueled the same opponents along side the very best ww/stun/kick player I know and I've seen the results. WW/Traps is undoublably better vs. Barbs, though it's a tough fight with a good one. VS. Smiters, a WW/Stun/Kick needs a bramble switch, a WW/Traps does fine in pub gear, and they do about equally well. Vs. Hammerdins, I'd say the builds are very close, though I can kill hammerdins that most well geared WWsins can't. In my experience WW/Stun/Kick is more hit and miss against hammerdins than my build, sometimes it's dominant and sometimes it does poorly.

    That said, there are several top casters that WW/Stun/Kick can beat that are harder for a WW/Trapper, examples would be a perfectly built blizz sorc, top necro or very skilled 200 fcr FB/ES with Wizgloves.
     
  8. Von Lazuli

    Von Lazuli IncGamers Member

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    I would say that a defensive ww/stun/kick can work very well against Hammerdins, at least in my experience, though it does worse against smiters than a ww/trapper.

    Of course, there are always the unfortunate losses when you mistime a whirl and eat a couple of hammers, but that happens with both trap/whirl and ww/kick/stun. The difference I see is that trap/whirl can deal better damage from a distance (7k light sentry versus 450 damage mind blast...) but up close ww/kick/stun has it easier due to the higher attack rating (I can go up to 23k without enchant, 15k in pub setup).

    Against smiters, I can sometimes get wins in pub-gear, but usually I have to make a Bramble swap, whereas Trap/Whirl have the advantage of an extra damage type and so have a much easier time (Plant traps and ww away in a line from them, trap shift-smiting pallys, have traps up against tele-smite... Much easier than pumping mind blast to a rapid ww)

    Laz
     
  9. matchuk

    matchuk IncGamers Member

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    well not too concerned with hammerdins more with bvc and smiters
    hammerdins i prob go with same method as i do with bvc widow lure then whirl away cept i wont have the dmg i need to do so efficiently also heard ww sin cant desync whirl

    but smiters i think a trap/ww will do 3x better, but i think imma remake the sin into a ww/stun/kick sin cos i never played a kicker and looking at wizadept's video and his use of wof/mind blast stun and kicking looks fun
     
  10. Von Lazuli

    Von Lazuli IncGamers Member

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    True, although I catch myself whirling most of the time, simply because against good duelers you will struggle to get a stun, and a tele-short whirl is quick enough to allow for a replacing of traps before you go in for a kick sequence. Against BvC I have no solution. I can beat bad ones by defensive whirling in a bramble setup while pumping mind blast, but against good ones, I have no chance.

    I mean, they have more life, more damage, more defence and faster casting... what is a sin to do? Maybe a trap/whirlwind in a bramble set-up could work? Any experience with this Happy, Wiz, order or aberdach(guy with the badger avatar, whatever your name is...)?

    Laz
     
  11. Moritz

    Moritz IncGamers Member

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    well, ok thanks to happy, oder and wizadept for answering.


    maybe dfing is indeed a bit dangerous, but i liked it as its much easier to hit (you know the procedure, just like vs fbers) and i experienced that if i mb lock first, many necs wont be impressed and will tank spears on me while doing so.
    good vids wiz, although those necs arent really defensive (e.g. in the last vid he simply dies because he wants to tank you). i like the unsummon / mb lock to tele-DT. it seems to be working like telezerking and i think it can be very surprising and ofc it stuns (i also play 7/3 kicks). will require some practise for me .. tbh i hardly used this technique because i often rather perform a triwhirl than dt after namelocking but the accuracy of dt could help especially in this duel, where any mistake at whirling can kill you instantly. hmm well i play ww left mouse (i think im one of the 1% on bnet that do so) and dt at 'w', so i will need some practise to type the combination of unsummon + centering + tele + dt in an instant, but the technique seems good also against other casters.

    thanks again for replies. i think its just that necs ARE simply uncommonly strong against my build. i will need LOTS of practise :)

    any further advice welcome !
     

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