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Discussion in 'Amazon' started by ZildjianDw, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. ZildjianDw

    ZildjianDw IncGamers Member

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    Need help

    Im planing on makeing a bow zon im not sure what I need to get and what I need to max out.Can anyone help?Im on useast NL if that will help any on the items that I will need.
     
  2. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator & Inc Clan Officer

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    Did you see our guides that are stickied at the top of our forum? Read and build. Have fun!
     
  3. ZildjianDw

    ZildjianDw IncGamers Member

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    Well I checked the sticky but didnt really see what I was looking for.Im looking to make a straff zon cause I herd they are really good can anyone tell me what I should get for her and what skills to max?
     
  4. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator & Inc Clan Officer

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    It depends on what you want to do with her. Will you run the pits, Baal? If you are just looking to quest and finish the game here is what I would suggest:

    strafe:20
    FA: 20
    CA: 10
    Valk: 20
    D/A/E: 1-5
    all prereqs: 1

    Use a might merc from act 2 NM. He will become a second tank and if you are deft enough you will hardly ever be hit.
    That is a skeleton build for you. Go for the cold attack first until you reach strafe. The monsters will slow down or freeze and you will be hit less.

    Let me know what you think of that. :D
     
  5. ZildjianDw

    ZildjianDw IncGamers Member

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    Well what if I wana be able to do Hell baal runs? Then what do i need to max and get? And about the skills i dont know the abreveation for the skils so can you type them out?
     
  6. Leohappy

    Leohappy IncGamers Member

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    Here's a quick list of what you need:
    Bow: Windforce shael
    Helm: M'avina diadem with Um
    Armor: Tal rasha armor with Um
    Belt: Goldwrap/Nosferatu's coil
    Ring 1: Single/Dual leech with ar,life, mana, etc
    Ring 2: Ravenfrost
    Amu: Highlord's wrath
    Gloves: Laying of Hands
    Boots: War Traveler

    Then use charms to cover the missing resistances. This gear also gives you 120IAS, allowing you to reach 9/2 strafe speed.

    Skills should be(+skill items included):
    Multishot: 10-12
    Strafe: Max
    Valkyrie: Max
    Penetrate: Max
    Pierce: 10
    Critical strike: 13
    Dodge, Avoid, Evade: 6-8 each (raise these as last)
    Freezing arrow: 1

    Stats:
    Str: 134 to equip WF
    Dex: ~300
    Vit: ~100
    Energy: Base
     
  7. Myrakh-2

    Myrakh-2 IncGamers Member

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    This is an interesting thread, since I'm thinking about making a bowazon as well --- and there's going to be no Faith or similar for her, but a Windforce seems obtainable.

    Still need to think about the Tal Rasha armor (and find out what they sell for these days) and add up the resists to see if I have enough charms to see a light, but...

    The reason you suggest War Travellers is for MF only? Or is there another reason to use these instead of (let's say) Goreriders, which I still have on top of my "possible boots" list? I don't know (yet?) where the 15-25 damage shows up in calculations, but I would assume that crushing blow will do more in long run, and that's not even taking deadly strike and open wounds chances into consideration.

    Hm... gotta check the trade forums some day, to see if an all res jewel is cheaper than UM :) Your item list made me realize that I completely forgot the armor/helmet sockets (playing a Skelemancer... so I just have ptopazes in there)... so maybe I can even trade up to 30% IAS from your gear list for resist gear and use IAS jewels instead. Crud... more options to think about :-(

    Yes, I don't want to be a glass cannon. I want to be a titan steel doublesized ultra-cannon... and a cheap one, for that matter (no, not that kind of cheap... the other kind...)

    Also, looking at your skill suggestions (haven't worked on these for myself yet), it seems you are suggesting 100% physical damage (unless I'm severely underestimating a level 1 FA). Since highlords doesn't provide amp damage I'll probably want Reaper's for my merc, but this will still leave some PIs immune (and even if it breaks the immunity, the monster will have 90% physical resist in the best case). Does this mean PIs aren't generally considered a problem? Or should I scrape off some skillpoints here and there to get magic arrow up to a decent level?

    But then, I guess I should be going back to the stickies for the skill questions. They don't have a "just get this very cheap and insanely powerful gear for your windforce zon"-list there, but the skills should all be described somewhere :)
     
  8. Leohappy

    Leohappy IncGamers Member

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    Hello Myrakh-2!

    I recommend War Traveler boots because they're well rounded boots for a bowzon. 15-25 damage improvement adds a lot more than that (I think the calculation is the same as charms with +min/max dmg), you get +20 attribute bonus and on top of that, MF. They are also very affordable, if you don't look for perfect ones ofc.

    Crushing blow on Gores is at 1/8 efficiency for ranged attacks (even less for bosses), and Deadly strike stacks with Critical on a diminishing formula, causing some DS percentage to be lost in the calculations.

    Problem with phys. immunes may or may not be the case for you, mostly depending on what you want to use your bowzon for. For example, I mostly MF in the Pit, Flayer Jungle and Lower kurast, where such creatures never even appear. They do appear in some areas of the game of course, but you can simply use magic arrow against them. My magic arrow is at level 7 (1+6) which is pretty low, but still allows me to kill those annoying PI's, even though it takes more time. Ofc Reaper's helps a lot here.

    I use freezing arrow not for damage but for freeze. It helps a lot in cow level, cs and baal runs, keeping you and your merc safe in sticky situations. If you think you don't need it, don't put any pts into it. It's an old reliable to me.

    I believe all gear that I've included in my list is affordable (but not to newbs ofc), but there are other options, like Lionheart rw armor instead of Tal's...
     
  9. XZON

    XZON IncGamers Member

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    PI's are definately a problem. The recommendations made just neglected to address the problem. I also don't see the point in strafe and multi. I think mavinas diadem stinks and good dual leech rings are very hard to come by. Maxing penetrate also seems useless. Most good pure bowazons use a demon limb on switch for enchant charges. Takes care of the AR problem and free's up what... 20 skill points.

    Dual ravens or 1 dwarf star is perfect. Since even a bad WF has enough mana leech for strafe, you only need life leech. Andarials vissage with an ias jewel is perfect there. The extra fire resist from laying of hands matchs well with this helm. Laying of hands are standard issue. War travs are definately better than gore riders for ranged attackers. Highlords or cats eye are perfect. I love tals armor with a 15% ias jewel. With this set up you cold wear tgods vigor and you would be absorbing all 3 elements except poison.

    For PI's I love magic arrow. Some prefer freezing arrow. No matter what, you need to spend skill points for a reliable PI killer. Magic arrow costs less mana and at high levels (20+) will mow down PI's.
     
  10. BeefChunks

    BeefChunks IncGamers Member

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    If you want to have a pretty cheap and good PI bow, get a harmony. Thats what Ive got for my zon right now (though shes only lvl 41, still lvling her.) Its only problem is no IAS, but if you put it in a -10 bow (matriarcal, blade) it only take 80 IAS to reach 8fps.
     
  11. Leohappy

    Leohappy IncGamers Member

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    This talk about Phys. immunes being big deal seems a bit too much. Can you please explain what area that you are commonly visiting for your exp/mf runs is filled with Phys. immunes? The only PI's that I encounter are an occasional Cow boss in cow level, sometimes a creature in Chaos sanct is also Phy. immune, and in some cases, one of the council members turns out PI as well. So that's about 1 creature/game.

    I've never seen a PI in the Pit, Flayer Jungle or Lower Kurast. Not quite a reason to spend 20 pts on magic arrow.

    Demon limb is ofc good for enchant, but I prefer to have Harmony bow on switch or fast running and elemental damage. Vigor sure speeds up all tasks a good deal.

    Andy mask is not bad but many people (incl.me) don't like it cuz it looks ugly...
     
  12. superdave

    superdave IncGamers Member

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    try running countess for a few pi's
     
  13. wookie919

    wookie919 IncGamers Member

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    I have a piercing fetish. If I can't get pierce to 100% using equipments such as razortail, I will max pierce. (If I had to choose the one best skill out of all the amazon skills, I would choose pierce.)

    Difference between 90% pierce and 80% pierce is huge.

    Chance to keep piercing targets:
    90%: 0.9 -> 0.81 -> 0.729 -> 0.6561
    80%: 0.8 -> 0.64 -> 0.512 -> 0.4096

    In an average situation, chances are, there will be a monster behind the monster you just hit.

    So, here's my skill distribution:
    - 20 in Strafe
    - 20 in Cold
    - 20 in Freezing arrow
    - 20 in Pierce
    - 1 in Decoy (will max this as I level up further).

    I do fine without valk and don't really like any of D/A/E. If you use decoy well, your merc and your decoy should be enough to keep monsters at bay while you shoot from behind.

    As for the items... :) I use the full Mav set with the Atmas scarab and a Ravenfrost. Cheap gear, just as effective as the average unique setup (of course it won't compare to faith/fort, duh), with a huge bonus to cold damage. Doing just fine in hell with 100% bonus to MF just from wearing the setup. Haven't socketed any items yet because I couldn't decide whether to go nef/ptopaz/ptopaz, or shael/15IAS/15IAS. That's the difference between 10/3 strafe with more MF and knockback and 9/2 strafe with less MF and no knockback. I am not a speed freak so 10/3 works for me.

    The best part is of course the fact that I glow. :)

    I guess what I am just trying to say is that for me 90% of the fun while playing diablo comes from designing and building my own char that's suited for my style of playing. Instead of asking what items to use and where to put skill points into, why not just find out what the most important aspects are for a bowazon to be effective, combine your preferences with those aspects and design and build your own chararacter?

    But of course, that's just me, and 'fun' is a totally subjective word.

    Cheers,
    *wookie919
     
  14. XZON

    XZON IncGamers Member

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    I think this place is reason enough.


    Harmony is cool and probably works for you. IMO the elemental damage amounts to just about nothing in hell though. I would rather enchant than have to pump penetrate also.

    Agreed. ugly as sin. Mods are sweet though.
     
  15. Leohappy

    Leohappy IncGamers Member

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    XZON:
    I am not sure what you mean by saying that hell baal runs are the reason to pump Magic arrow. My Faith bowzon (92), with the best gear currently available (Pride, Faith 15, Fortitude) can't do them fast enough in 8pl game. Much less my higher (94) level Windforce zon with the same eq. Monsters are a bit too tough there, and I can't see where Magic arrow kicks in to make the difference.

    In public baal runs, it doesn't really matter since your Magic arrow won't help the team effort much anyway (sorcs and palas kill much faster there). Freezing arrow, however, will, since you can turn baal's minions into helpless statues - nice targets for others to shoot with minimum risk (only the pack boss remains unaffected) :).

    For 1pl private baalys, monsters have much lower HP anyway and even PI's aren't much of a challenge for low level Magic arrow.

    Also I have to agree with wookie919 that there is no win-win recipe for making bowzons. One just has to make one and try the skills for himself... :cool:
     
  16. XZON

    XZON IncGamers Member

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    He wants to do baal runs. you want to know where there are PI's. Baal runs, Pits, arcane sanc. If you want to solo the entire game, there will be plebnty of PI's. Just because you decided to only do flayer runs and a few other area's that do not have PI's does not mean that the original poster wants to run the same areas. I do solo baal runs all the time with my bowazon and find magic arrow to be invaluable.
     
  17. Leohappy

    Leohappy IncGamers Member

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    What monster in the Pit can spawn as PI? :S I hope we're playing the same game, cuz I've never seen one in there. Unique monsters in the Pit sometimes spawn as "Stone skin" but never as PI.

    Arcane sanctuary is one of the areas that I play exactly 3 times with each char - to finish the "Summoner" quest.

    To sum up the debate:
    In the end we're looking at the possibility that someone (not me) will be playing either repeated Countess runs, or Baal runs with his bowzon, and that's two areas where PI's appear regularly and the increased MA skill might be useful to speed up the killing.

    Although I have to say that 8pl Baal runs with a bowzon aren't fast enough, and Countess runs are MUCH faster when done with a Sorc or some character with Enigma teleport.
     
  18. XZON

    XZON IncGamers Member

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    I used to say the same thing about PI's and the pit and was corrected. I swore that I never saw one. I was wrong. The superuniques do spawn that way from time to time but it is extremely rare.

    Bowazons mostly are going along for the ride in 8 player baal runs. With windforce we can knockthings back and given enough time, we can kill stuff but usually a single element sorc or hammerdin will do most of the killing for us. These days it's tough to get any 8 player runs anyway. I commented because the poster does want to do baal runs. I could care less about countess runs and only mentioned arcane because you asked where the PI's are.

    You have answered at least 2 other posts with your build suggestions in recent months and each time the poster asked how you deal with PI's. Your answer has been the same each time. I only run flayer jungle and a few other area's where there are no PI's. Obviously people who are building bowazons are interested in a solution to PI's yet you answer their posts with your build as if you can solo hell with it. Then, after they ask, you mention that you avoid them. I never would have commented if your original post said: here is my gear and build but I only run ....... so I have not addressed PI's.

    People come to the forums for build advice. Most I would assume would like to be able to handle all areas of the game. If they happen to follow your advice blindly, they will hit a brick wall if going solo. Don't get me wrong, if someone posts "build advice needed for pit runner or flayer jungle runner" then you are on the money.

    Lastly on magic arrow. I have a Faith / LF hybrid which uses magic arrow at level 11. Let me tell you that this takes a lot longer to kill PI's than it should. My WF straffer is at level 23 MA and it is a huge difference. When critical strike hits, it becomes over 2,000 points of magic damage and uses zero mana/arrows. 23% damage converted to magic damage compared to 7% in your case. That means PI's will die over 3 times faster. Great skill.
     
  19. Leohappy

    Leohappy IncGamers Member

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    I can of course thank you for good posts, although what we're debating is almost OT already :cool:.

    Since you questioned my method of bowzon gaming(using my forum posts as an example), I'd just like to add a few of my observations regarding people who play over the battle.net (this is a generalised view of course) - been playing the zons on EU since 2000, and recently almost the whole ladder (since August 2004):

    1) Players usually play bowzons either for MF in those few areas difficult for other classes, exp in Baal runs, or PvP. Rarely just for pure fun (although not impossible):
    - for a MF zon to be successful, area must be full of Demons, reasonably easy monsters, and LOTS of them.
    - exp zons will have to play in Baal runs to get the best exp, and that can only be done in a team, since Baal runs can't be easily done solo in 8pl with a bowzon.
    - PvP zons are a different case, usually avoiding all standard skill distributions of PvM zons.
    - a "pure fun" player is in my view the only one, who will need to be able to handle everything on his way - and even this one in Single player only.

    2) On the battle.net, there is always a possibility to ask others for help, thus you can easily avoid areas like Arcane Sanctuary, Kurast Bazaar, since you can do these areas in a team, and one Sorc is enough...

    Also for me and my friends, soloing quests isn't standard practice. Why waste your time in 1pl? That's for Single player gaming, not battle.net. There are always "act" games open on bnet that you can join/make to do the quests, and with no less fun (usually more fun).

    3) At some point, even if you play your chars for fun, you get bored with them, and try to use them for MF runs (or for PvP), if just to try it out and maybe get a few trinkets along the way (although botters don't need to do that - I hate the noobs so much...).

    So I usually optimize my char builds so that they have some MF and appropriate skills for when I am going to do solo 4-8pl MF runs. And that's the point of the story where my opinions meet your opinions of bowzon gaming. My bowzon idea usually boils down to being able to do solo Pit/Flayer/CS runs, and not being able to handle EACH AND ALL areas of the game. Simply put, physical immunes aren't standard issue in the abovementioned areas, thus there's no need to put 20 pts into something that's rarely going to be used anyway (even if the skill is good).
     
  20. XZON

    XZON IncGamers Member

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    Combined we could keep this thread pinned to the top for a week.

    I too have been playing amazons for years. My first 20 characters were all bowazons. I too have specialized characters. Pit runners, Chaos runners worldstone runners, cowazons etc. Some needed to be helped with area's to save skill points that would not be needed in the future. There are definately some that could never solo the game. The thing is that when I give build advice, I aim for a well rounded char who can do solo the game. I now play hardcore and getting help for those area's that I can not solo is frustrating and dangerous. (all my friends are now gone and none of them were hardcore anyway).

    Anyway, my point is that your build is fine for what you use it for but in the 3 posts that you answered, the poster was not asking for a flayer / kurast runner. They wanted a good bowazon build. I think the assumption should be that they want a versitile build and not a specialized runner. The followup posts each asked how you dealt with PI's. Why put your build info in a thread without the disclaimer "I run .... and avoide PI's"?

    That was my only point. I did not intend to debate the values of Magic arrow or the locations that bowazons should or should not run.
     

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