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Necromancer vs Druid Summoner

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by dodenbezweerder, Jun 16, 2005.

  1. dodenbezweerder

    dodenbezweerder IncGamers Member

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    Necromancer vs Druid Summoner

    Hello,

    After reading several strats about Summoner Druids i came to the conclusion they might be nice to play. I've started playing one and to be honest they are a lot harder to play at least in the beginning then a necromancer. I am currently at level 20 with the druid. My necromancer is currently at level 24 just kicks everything in it's path.

    So i was wonder if anyone knows how the druid and necromancer compare to eachother on the higher level, nightmare, hell even?

    Thanks.
     
  2. waflob

    waflob IncGamers Member

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    For me, the main difference is that the necro gets his good killing machines (i.e. skellies) at level 1, but the druid must wait until lvl 30 for his bear. Also, the druid doesn't have access to amp damage and other curses.

    At about lvl 40 or so, it starts getting easier. Dire wolves are strong enough to be let loose and if they start dying too often to a particular boss, just replace them with a bear that will tank (and I mean TANK). Add a might merc, a good elemental damage bow for the druid and you've got a good setup. Sometimes it's a nuisance keeping 5 ravens up, but they are worth it as well.

    Have fun !!

    DelBoy
     
  3. Stevebo

    Stevebo Banned

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    Necro skills grow at a much faster rate than Druid early on, at level 20 you will have a lot of points in Skelli and Skelli mastery meaning you can be very strong at low levels, where a druid has to beef up his Dire Wolfs a bit, which he only gets at level 18 (or 24?) before he really gets a killing machine.

    Slow starting is a 'feature' across many druid builds, particulary for the Wind Druid - generally recognised as being very powerful but only gets his main attack at level 24, before then he is really really crap, after he is a killing machine

    Make sure you have 5 ravens, also make sure you make good use of the Sages, which are similar (against monsters with resists there is a big difference) to Amp Damage (HoW) and Iron Maiden (Barbs). Poison creeper is also very good as it does far more than the listed damage against multiple monsters. Post your question in the druid forum and im sure you can get some very good help with constructing the Summoner Druid.

    I think Druid is harder to play, espically early on, but makes a nice change.
     
  4. richo

    richo IncGamers Member

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    mostly with theh drood and the necro, is idd the nec strong already at low lvl and will only get stronger (the more +skills ofc) i have atm a number of 44 minions and if i play with a totaly geared up nec against a fully geared up drood with his thingies max i can already know whos gonna win cause it is 44 v 5 or 3 or even 1 (exc. the sages and ravens), (if no resummon the nec will ofc easy win)

    the ele drood can be very strong in the beginning you just look at the windy drood, theres a fire part to wich can be very useful though, every build can be strong from the beginning only if you want a strong build at the end you must suffer to be beauty:D

    rgzzz
    RICHO
     
  5. dodenbezweerder

    dodenbezweerder IncGamers Member

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    I've already made a Summoner Necromancer before and it was a real fun way of playing. Although sometimes it does get a bit boring since you just stand there doing nothing while your horde kills everything in sight.

    The direwolves indead come in around level 18, the bear at level 30. At the moment i have 3 dire wolves, but they tend to die a lot. So yes, i was wondering how they compare at the later levels to the skeleton warriors. Since they hardly die in my opinion. My druid is also more active, i've got a nice bow which i just shoot away and resummon my minions (all the time).

    Thanks for all the replies.. I'll continue with my Druid a bit more and see how he makes progress.
     
  6. Stevebo

    Stevebo Banned

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    Unless the druid has a maxed poison creeper in which case the more minions you have the more poison damage it will do to each minion - which with 44 minions will be a HUGE amount. Apparently it is posible to solo Hell Cows with only a poison creeper - there is an extensive guide by electricblue (i think) on this.

    The annoying thing about spending points in fire spells when starting a windy is that from level 24 onwards those skills will never be used again and will be wasted :( this is where a Necro has a huge advantage because he gets his useful skills (skellies) from level 1 with very very few wasted points even in pre-requisites.
     
  7. dodenbezweerder

    dodenbezweerder IncGamers Member

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    The druid indeed has a hard time starting up. I believe i had about 12 unused skillpoints at level 18. :). Just to avoid placing skillpoints in skills i won't use.

    (i found this nice +3 raven hat, so i didn't need to put any more points in ravens).
     
  8. Stevebo

    Stevebo Banned

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    Sounds about the same as when i built mine - 1 pt in ice blast, next few in cyclone armour once its available, 1 in poison creeper and carrion vine when they come up, from level 18 put 1 in both twister (synergies) and cyclone armour until you eventually get tornado, which is then maxed along with hurracane - so many tomb runs to level to 24. Gah! Useful to get a +3 Fissure helm i found.

    By level 24 a Necro has maybe 8 in skelli and mastery with the rest as 1pointers in curses and golems and summon resist. And is a fully fledged killing machine long before then, much more fun in early levels.

    On the other hand back to the main topic, Skelli vs Wolf im going to start up a new summon druid (Europe Ladder) to hopefully challenge someone and sort out the arguement once and for all!
     
  9. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Without Amp, a Druid's minions don't hold a candle to a Necro's. Nor does he have the staying power. Skeletons make perfectly decent tanks in their own right and you can easily get over a dozen of them. Sure, we need bodies for skeletons and revives but that's rarely a problem once you've gotten past that initial summoning.

    Druid summons have a lot of utility that goes really well with hybrid builds though and the necro doesn't have any single critter that can hold a candle to the bear. He'll also have an easier time against bosses like Diablo in Normal since he can simply resummon at will. The real problem with pure druid summoners is that you have to rely on your poison vine to deal with physical immunes which can take a while. I think physical/poison immunes are pretty rare, but I prefer to have other options. Because of amp, skellimancers only really have to worry about the occasional hard physical immune and that's easily dealt with by using corpse explode and mages.

    IMO, a pure necro summoner at level 43 will beat the snot out of a pure Druid summoner's minions at level 99. I wouldn't expect the same results if he was playing any kind of a Lycanthrope summoning hybrid though.
     
  10. Stevebo

    Stevebo Banned

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    A maxed Heart of wolverine increases damage (and attack rating) by well over 100% (152% at level 20) - which provided something is not physical immune/resistant (which skellies arent) will increase their damage by more than Amp damage, add this to the +100% damage bonus for 20 seconds after they eat a corpse gives a total of ~250% ED

    Fear not for the debate - I am now working on getting a Hunter (Druid summoner with ele bow) to see if someone on here will agree to a minion fight to put the theory into practice.

    Assuming it is to be a 'friendly' i propose:
    1. Both players naked with no +skills, no teleport
    2. No playerkill - end hostilities as soon as minions finish.
    3. A series of 1 on 1 minion fights (Dire wold, dire wold charged, wolf+sage vs skelli+curse (not confuse/attract as these would not work on a normal PvP and its a bit harsh to compare to minions, not IM as druid can only max 1 of HoW or Barbs). No Resummon.
    4. An 8 on 3 match without curses/sages. No resummon.
    5. An 8 on 3 match with curses/sages (same rules as above)
    6. An 8 on 3 + Creeper
    7. An 8 on 3 + Creeper + Sages/Curses
    8. An all out with both players agreeing to use the same amount of +skills that the poorer player (probably me) can put out. Say i have +8 total and the other has +12 then he should only use +8 or it then becombes an equipment comparison. No Mercs as their levels/aura levels and equipment complicates things a lot. Both players are allowed to summon/resummon max available to them (Ravens, Vine, Sage, Wolf/Bear, Skellies, Golem, Mages and Revives), Curse/Sage rules as above. No cursing of other player himself - its a minion fight. Basically a full PvP fought exclusively by minions. No teleport.
     
  11. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    If you're on West Ladder I'll give it a go although I'll have to power level a bit. You're right on HoW. I'd forgotten about that. I think the numbers advantage is still a big factor though, but without +skills I think you only get 9 skeletons. That's another necro advantage. He keeps enhancing numbers and getting more performance with +skills and he has a much easier time getting a crapload of them (AoKL gives +5 to RS/SM alone). Gumby's slow ability is quite nasty too although naked the dire wolves should have an easy time taking him out.

    In a no holds barred duel the necro will kill a Druid's minions easily by isolating them with Terror but I think this is more of a test of raw strength.

    The advantages of Amp and CE in PvM, however, give necros an undeniable edge in killing monsters quickly.
     
  12. Stevebo

    Stevebo Banned

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    Am on europe ladder - will probably take a week or two (am literally starting from scratch!) to get the levels.
    I admit the no-holds barred duel, espically with Corpse Explosion the Necro should win. Does Terror normally work in PvP? Forgot about that - basically in the curses restrictions i was aiming at removing curses that would notrmally not be used in PvP as they wont affect a real player and IM as it makes it unfair to the Druid as he has to make a choice of HoW or Barbs, and although full Barbs is stronger than IM i dont really want to make a build around it.
    one more rule - no attacking the other player with bone spear/arrows.

    Anyway it will be a little while getting the character built so have some time to sort it out.
     
  13. Mammel248

    Mammel248 Banned

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    Well, if I think about it good, this is my idea of it.

    A Necro vs a Druid, both having a full party (all they can summon), the Necro would surely win!! Most summoners have 30+ revives and 12/13/14 melee skels, and 8~magi. A Druid has 1 grizzly, 3 or 5 wolves. That's just no match, even not with sages and a vine. And then, when you count in Amp Damage and the other curses...

    No, I don't think a druid stands a single chance.
     
  14. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Yep. Terror works great. It's what makes Necro on Necro summoner duels really pointless.

    Here are some stats I pulled off of a calc site with all synergies maxed in Nightmare difficulty

    Skeletons

    Mana cost: 25
    Number of skeletons: 8
    Damage: 124 - 127 (ø125.5)
    Attack Rating: 604
    Defense: 605
    Hit Points: 1805
    Resist lightning/cold/fire: 0%

    Dire Wolves

    Mana cost: 20
    Max minions: 3
    Attack Rating: 1657
    Damage: 217 - 233 (ø225)
    Resist lightning/cold/fire: 85%
    Defense: 777
    Hit Points: 612 - 812 (ø712.5)
    Passive life bonus: +525%

    Bear

    Mana cost: 40
    Attack Rating: 3915
    Damage: 945 - 1039 (ø992)
    Resist lightning/cold/fire: 85%
    Defense: 710
    Hit Points: 3437 - 4687 (ø4062.5)
    Passive damage bonus: +215%

    Total skeleton damage is ~ 1004 (2008 with amp) but their attack rating bites compared to the Wolves so I'm guessing damage will be comparable with an HoW spirit which gives the wolves even more AR. If the skeletons are going to win against an HoW spirit, it's their life that will probably give them the edge. I don't think the bear has a chance. It gets a lot of life and could take out a skeleton in a couple hits but it's just going to get mobbed. Especially if it got hit with decrepify and a Gumby with ten points in it. The skeletons attacks should interrupt it too much for it to do damage.

    With no curses against an HoW though, I suspect the Wolves have a good shot. However, Life Tap, Decrepify, and Amp will all give the skeletons an edge.

    Edit: and yeah with a full 100 points, I don't think Pure summon Druid can hack it vs. a pure necro in PvP even naked and without curses.
     
  15. sir goatscelot

    sir goatscelot IncGamers Member

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    Hmm..100% sure we have covered this question just a few days back.. ;) Having played both, mho is the Necro is the easier class to play. Both have pros and cons: Necro has curses, more minions etc. Druid has recastable minions and has no need for bodies..he can also tactically postion them..Necro cannot unless he has Tele or he himself marshals the skells in to proper position by moving around..

    I had a non ladder Summon Druid with lvl 40 raves, dire wolves, bear, How and close to max Spir Wolf..o ya and a might merc.. He killed well but anymore than 6 monsters on the screen and one would seem to always take a liking to me lol and chase me about as my minions were busy doing something else..like sniffing a rock :( Yes I did recast them but thats not the point of the story. The point is you must play slower and smarter with a Druid. The nec usually wins most of his battles by the sheer number of minions he has..o ya and CE

    In party play however, I find the Summon Druid just as helpful as a Necro.. If you were to have duel, I believe Mantis did the number crunching and theoretically, it seems to favour the Nec..
     
  16. waflob

    waflob IncGamers Member

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    I'm up for it, as long as it's HC ladder and can provide a skelliemancer. What level char did you have in mind ?

    I'm not really sure how to persuafe the minions to attack the other minions, instead of the player. Sure, druis summons can be positioned, but the skellies tend to be less precise and I'm sure neither of us wants to loose a character in this experiment.

    Let me know what you think ?

    DelBoy
     
  17. k/t

    k/t Banned

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    Reading this has made me want to make a summoner druid, haha. I can participate in the test if you want, I have a summoner necro. Did you want a certain level summoner? Mine is 91, USEast, non-ladder, softcore. All I have to do is get my merc killed, hehe. Poor Gulzar...he's been reduced to a guinea pig.

    Edit: If you need my help, message me, don't just answer in this thread, as I might not reread it.
     
  18. Stevebo

    Stevebo Banned

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    Am on Europe Ladder - i imagine lag if i tried to play in US would be horrible.

    NOT Hardcore - There is no way on earth im going to spend hours and hours creating a character (possibly several times if he gets killed by lag/mistakes) to test the Necro vs Druid, which for the max summons no holds barred i also reckon necro will win easily - but it would be interesting to find out just to see what happens.

    Will probably take a week or so to level him - am not in a position to play 8 hours a day! (Cows cows cows....)
     

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