Mystery Char

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Mystery Char

Being a huge fan of subterfuge, i must dissagree.

I think d3's environment system might be able to accurately depict a stealthy char; something d2 could not (cos came close, but not very well).

The environment is far more interactive, and a char could have a possibility to use this for cover (sneak attack?) or as a vantage point (wall climbing like the ladder we saw?)

etc

Sigh ... it has nothing to do with the environment ... you know what stealth is !!? ... in most stealth games your objective isn't to kill your enemies or massacre them (as in Diablo), in Stealth games you need to go from point A to point B and complete a specific objective without being seen or heard as much as possible ... killing skills come in handy if someone spots you but even those are stealthy and usually a one on one affair .. how is that going to be applied in Diablo !!!? ... how are you going to sneak attack a mob of 20 monsters waiting for you ... or sneak kill a boss that's three times larger than you ... it just won't work.

Putting a a character class based on Stealth in Diablo would really be the most silly thing to do ... as silly as putting a healer character .. it doesn't fit with the game nature one bit.


So NO for a character built around stealth (it isn't Metal Gear or Thief here)

But YES for evasive/escape skills ... which are already in the game anyway .. and are fine if each class has one or two of those.

 

[Sass]

Re: Mystery Char

Sigh ... it has nothing to do with the environment ... you know what stealth is !!?

Being a huge fan of subterfuge

No, I have no idea what stealth is. I play a stealth oriented character and have no clue what I'm doing. half, no, 100% of the time, I'm hitting random keys and clicking like a madman on crack. What's stealth?

in most stealth games your objective isn't to kill your enemies or massacre them (as in Diablo)

Cool. That's only a side objective, depending on mission I'd suppose.

in Stealth games you need to go from point A to point B and complete a specific objective without being seen or heard as much as possible

And how does that have nothing to do with the environment? Stealth and cover come hand in hand...

killing skills come in handy if someone spots you but even those are stealthy and usually a one on one affair

Killing skills also come in handy for killing. It shines in 1v1, but Sins never had a problem with mobs. Why would a similar char suddenly have no ability to fight a mob? This part makes no sense.

how is that going to be applied in Diablo !!!

Um, maybe due to the better system it has for the environment? It's possible to hide in the areas seen in the gameplay and a stealth char would have an awesome time O.O

how are you going to sneak attack a mob of 20 monsters waiting for you

Simple. You attack from a stealth state (hidden, flanked, whatever applies) and are granted a sneak attack bonus on damage. Then with one, maybe two dead (depending on attack combos), you focus on the rest. You don't have to sneak attack everything, but that doesn't mean you are completely ineffective if more than one monster comes along.

or sneak kill a boss that's three times larger than you ... it just won't work

A one shot kill is far fetched, but an additional critical strike damage is far from illogical.

Putting a a character class based on Stealth in Diablo would really be the most silly thing to do ... as silly as putting a healer character .. it doesn't fit with the game nature one bit.

Stealth....healer...They aren't even related, and both of your described examples already exist in the diablo games...How does that not fit, when many are currently using said chars?

So NO for a character built around stealth (it isn't Metal Gear or Thief here)

It's possible you just don't like the idea of stealth. Others (like myself) would however.

 

[Zallirog]

Re: Mystery Char

Hello everyone! I'm a first time poster on here, however going back to traps there is a way to include them while still keeping them interesting and fun. One such method would be that you have to prepare the traps you'll use before you get into combat or something to that effect. Then when you see a group of baddies, the traps are premade so you can just toss the trap near their location and proceed to attack them to pull them into the trap! In the case of an explosive or pretty much any other kind of trap the throw and pull method would work excellently for Diablo. Fast and to the point instead of setting a trap by placing it wich takes some time, then running the mob through the trap.

I belive there is a ton of potential with traps, espescially if there is an assasin and if it doesn't use magic of any kind in D3.

 

[Sass]

Re: Mystery Char

That reminds me of baldur's gate, dark alliance 2's Borador.

He sets a satchel bomb, then independently detonates it when enemies are near.



And technically the sin didn't use magic (well, items... )

 

[NASE]

Re: Mystery Char

So NO for a character built around stealth (it isn't Metal Gear or Thief here)

But YES for evasive/escape skills ... which are already in the game anyway .. and are fine if each class has one or two of those.

What I don't get is that you can be so opposed to stealth while you love traps. In a classically approach, they both are slow paced. yet you assume traps can be made to fit, and stealth doesn't.

Why?


I think we should go back to what is the key point of stealth. Stealth is the unseen strategic movement to gain additional damage modifiers so strategic monster can be killed first;
Those fallen overseers forinstance. Or those shamans. That where a stealth character should focus on. Fast movement to strategic targets. Something other classes might not be capable off.

[edit]
And welcome Zallirog.

 

[Zallirog]

Re: Mystery Char

What I don't get is that you can be so opposed to stealth while you love traps. In a classically approach, they both are slow paced. yet you assume traps can be made to fit, and stealth doesn't.

Why?


I think we should go back to what is the key point of stealth. Stealth is the unseen strategic movement to gain additional damage modifiers so strategic monster can be killed first;
Those fallen overseers forinstance. Or those shamans. That where a stealth character should focus on. Fast movement to strategic targets. Something other classes might not be capable off.

[edit]
And welcome Zallirog.

I think the biggest factor of stealth being a problem in a game like diablo, isn't such that it is slow. The fact is stealth kills are typically intended for use against one specific target rather than a hoard of them. Also against a boss you would only get one hit then you would be exposed, so it would be a moot point unless your one hit was a one hit kill.

[edit]
Glad to be here!

 

[NASE]

Re: Mystery Char

That why it should only be a minor aspect of a character. It should be combine with skills to counter those drawbacks.

P.S. And making stealth work with multitarget mele skill is something that isn't a problem. For me anyway. It doesn't work with just single target skills, you make them multitarget.

 

[Zallirog]

Re: Mystery Char

That why it should only be a minor aspect of a character. It should be combine with skills to counter those drawbacks.

P.S. And making stealth work with multitarget mele skill is something that isn't a problem. For me anyway. It doesn't work with just single target skills, you make them multitarget.

True, but typically in a game with stealth your stealth is generally broken after your first attack, stealth usually won't persist if you make an attempt at attacking or get hit before you attack something.

 

[sinned]

Re: Mystery Char

Traps may work pretty well with a sneak attack scenario - you stealth your way to a pack of monsters, set up two traps near them, which activate when the monsters go into combat, and execute some starting move. In this way you deal some huge damage, but the character is relatively weaker than - let's say - the barb so you need evasive skills and the upper hand at the beginning of the fight.

 

[NASE]

Re: Mystery Char

True, but typically in a game with stealth your stealth is generally broken after your first attack, stealth usually won't persist if you make an attempt at attacking or get hit before you attack something.

You do additional damage because the monsters don't know you are there attacking them. It's that lack of evasive movements that are where your increased attack is.
So, if you attack fast enough and the monsters aren't fast at reacting - it's a magic game, so magic might help getting this behaviour - one might attack more monsters with additional damage.

I'm thinking about skills like zeal. It's fast and still agile. It's almost perfect for a multitarget physical mele attack.

 

[Chorkstain]

Re: Mystery Char

What I don't get is that you can be so opposed to stealth while you love traps. In a classically approach, they both are slow paced. yet you assume traps can be made to fit, and stealth doesn't.

Why?

Please take note of what people say. He already said that traps can be fast paced so there's actually no duplicity in his opinion.

I think we should go back to what is the key point of stealth. Stealth is the unseen strategic movement to gain additional damage modifiers so strategic monster can be killed first;
Those fallen overseers forinstance. Or those shamans. That where a stealth character should focus on. Fast movement to strategic targets. Something other classes might not be capable off.

[edit]
And welcome Zallirog.

I personally don't like the idea of stealth, but this kind of character should definitely be able to pick off strategic targets, as you say. A ranged character would be perfect for this, without having to be some crappy multi-target machine gun like the Amazon.

As for Knight_Wolf's perspective on traps, I think they are a bad idea as they are because they are simply targeted area spells. I already talked about my idea of traps as having a gameplay trait rather than necessarily being a 'contrapment', as such. Again, things like a fire armour skill or a glyph which deals heavy electricity damage to spell casters would be 'traps' under my definition. You can't spam them like area spells because they respond to an enemy stimulus such as attacking or casting a spell. The fire armour spell might be something like 'Fire Rune', which is used up when the foe strikes the player, but it explodes and knocks foes back. So it's not really a buff spell either.

Traps could be good, but as they exist in D2 they are not so great. Care needs to be taken to differentiate this skill type from other skill types covered by other classes.

 

[NASE]

Re: Mystery Char

Please take note of what people say. He already said that traps can be fast paced so there's actually no duplicity in his opinion.

Traps, just like stealth are slow paced mechanisms if you look at them from a classical point of view. Take baldur's gate, D&d or the real life.

Now, traps can be made fast paced (I'm not contesting this, I'm just saying it's not the best option, yet we had this already). So we go from slow paced to fast paced by making good design decisions. Why can't we do the same for stealth or stealth-like effects?

@ Chorkstain: ranged character can be used this way, though it's limited. You don't have an infinite line of sight, you can only hit one at a time, you need to make sure that there aren't other monsters between you and him. etc.
Notting that can't be overcome, yet I don't think it will ever get fast enough. Not if you assume that you have to compete with barbarians who can go after those monsters too once fury is build up. And possibility wizards later in the battle.
And for that point, I would try to design a stealthy character.

 

[Chorkstain]

Re: Mystery Char

A ranged character could accomplish this quite easily if he had an Arcing Shot ability, something quite suiting for a ranged character. He's so good he can aim high up into the air and still the shot hits his target. This way he can fire over hordes.

And you know? Perhaps stealth could be done, however only one or two skills should have anything to do with this. One that enables you to assume a ghost like form but drains mana constantly, so you can move in and out of crowds at leisure, so long as you've got the energy. A decoy spell might work as well...

OK, you know what? I really don't know what you guys mean by a stealthy character. Someone give me an example of how it would be implemented in gameplay and why it works. It seems to get dismissed as being unsuitable for Diablo's playstyle but were stealth to be interpreted differently, it might be interesting. So please... I'm all ears.

 

[NASE]

Re: Mystery Char

And you know? Perhaps stealth could be done, however only one or two skills should have anything to do with this. One that enables you to assume a ghost like form but drains mana constantly, so you can move in and out of crowds at leisure,

That's how I would do things too. Combine that skill with one or two passive skills to modify some effects, a couple of skills that can be used always yet gain additional damage when performed from a 'ghost-state' (both mele, ranged and poison) and some evasive skills designed to make an agile low life character survive when surrounded.
And if needed, you can even put in some magic ghost skills.

For me, that seems like a decent stealth like tree. To be combined with what ever you want (probably ranged and mele or traps)


P.S. And if things are to easy or not stealthy enough for some people, you can always use some sort of 'seen modifier' that defines the additional damage you can do. So the better you are at high paced stealth, the more damage you will as you will be 'seen' less.

[edit]
That picture of the mystery class makes me think of those guys from mummy (that movie). They were holy warriors IIRC with some strange (stealth) techniques. Perhaps we can get inspiration there.

 

[LaZeR]

Re: Mystery Char

Stalth is tricky since it brings up the slow pace problem again (especially, as said, considering you need to keep up with the Barb). So, IMO, no Stealth nor Traps skills should be made as a special tree, but combined with the 3 main tree to make then minor and as fast paced as possible.
Anyway, my suggestions:

Chameleon- Taken from the WD skill idea, your body takes the colors of your surrounding, boosting your defense.

Inivisibility- Pretty basic. You can't be seen. This would be the Noman teleport for skipping areas he doesn't like.
And skills you can use while insivible:

Assasination- 1 hit skill with major cooldown and massive damage which breaks your invisibility. A good way to start a battle or take down an annoying well protected Shaman.

Mine- The Nomad throws where he stands a bomb that detonated on place. This forces the player to get right next to a monsters/in the middle of a crowd so the enemies will be hit. The blast radius should be small to enhance the Stealth espcet to the skill.

As for Traps- To sum the discussion up, I think you should call it Battle Techniques/Battle Tricks. It's better since they will be more of "spell" skills than a "trap" skills. IMO. Maybe that will help you come up with new ideas

 

[Sass]

Re: Mystery Char

Well slow paced and traps doesn't really make much sense. You do use time to lay them, but then rapidly run through monsters due to the extra damage / effect. You take time, to speed up kill speed....that's average to my ears. =/

In terms of stealth; it can be slow, but it doesn't have to be. Depending on how much shadow play comes in (an addition of a stealth char would put importance of environmental cover, keeping to the shadows, etc), one could sneak at regular speed (especially a nimble, stealthy person). The extra damage boost would clear a critical monster (fallen leader perhaps?) and then deal with the others quickly with fast attacks. It seems imba when I re-read that, but at least fast combo attacks or w.e