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my hellforge hammer repair experiment

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by huangfusong, Sep 4, 2006.

  1. huangfusong

    huangfusong IncGamers Member

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    my hellforge hammer repair experiment

    i read on another site that repairing the hellforge hammer before doing the quest may give you better runes. these forums say it's just a hoax, but i wanted to try it out, so i played a character --single player -- all the way through hell today until the hellforge and then copied the file in windows 5 times. This is what i got from the 5 runs: ist, gul, hel, ist, ko

    not bad at all since i've never gotten better than a lum yet in all my character's hellforge rushes. it was hard deleting the files afterwords!

    everyone says that it's a myth, and stuff like the hellforge can only drop up to gul. do they know this because they read the code or because of rumor? all i know is I'm going to start doing it for real from now on

    of course, the other thing is i could've just wasted my luck for the next year!
     
  2. adecoy

    adecoy IncGamers Member

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    well, i dont know much about computers, i know that some very strange things can happen in code, but from my personal experience i can probably say without a doubt that repairing the hammer dosent make a difference, and that it is just a supersition, if the hammer being repaired made a difference the way bugs are it would likely make it have a LARGE difference, wether it be numerical or whatever
     
  3. WebDragon

    WebDragon IncGamers Member

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    The information is a combination of reading what information Blizzard released about the game and reading the code directly. I can assure you that if repairing the hell forge hammer increases the drops, then there'd be something about it in the code.

    Keep in mind that as complicated as the game is, *most* of the things in the game are there for a reason. There would be no reason to make repairing the hell forge hammer give better hell forge drops, since its already highly rewarding as it is.

    As for your experience with it. All I can say is that you'll need much more than 5 times (of each method) to come to a serious conclusion.

    Just to show you that it could work out the other way as well, recently I rushed 5 mules to the hell forge and I got, without repairing, Gul, Gul, Ist, Ist, Ko.

    Its all luck.
     
  4. LeftForDead

    LeftForDead IncGamers Member

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    its all base on luck in the drops for runes
     
  5. Dystopianday

    Dystopianday IncGamers Member

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    A number of statistical significance would be 50.

    I've gotten 3 mals, 3 guls, 4 ists and 4 ums from hellforges, by the way. That's out of I believe 20 characters in hell. Haven't kept track of pul or NM stats.

    I don't repair the hammer.
     
  6. Evrae Altana

    Evrae Altana IncGamers Member

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    You did 5 trials and got a conclusion? :rolleyes:
    Also, take a look at your results: ist, gul, hel, ist, ko. Did you just ignore the significance of the "crappy" Hel and Ko? After all, they make up 40% of your "results".
     
  7. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder IncGamers Member

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    Think about it from the perpective of the guy coding the game. You're on a deadline, working your butt off to get everything into the game that you want there. You've already had to cut out umpteen awesome features that you originally planned on putting in because of time restraints. Now it comes time to code the hellforge drops. Do you (A) get it done as quickly and simply as possible so you can move on to the next project and get the game done on time, or (B) spend extra time to add a completely useless little gimmick to the game that most people will never realize is there? It just doesn't make any sense. What is it about people that they can't stand for anything in a game to be random? Why do you always have to find some weird way of making yourself believe you can control the random process, instead of just accepting that it is only a matter of luck?

    If I were someone's boss and they coded something like that in to the game, I'd fire them.
     
  8. druliusCleaver

    druliusCleaver IncGamers Member

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    I recommend a book called "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Here's a quote from the beginning of the prologue:

    "This book is about luck disguised and perceived as non-luck (skills) and, more generally, randomness disguised and perceived as non-randomness (determinism). It manifests itself in the shape of the lucky fool, defined as a person who has benefitted from a disproportionate share of luck but attributes his success to some other, generally very precise, reason."

    People are wired to invent causes to explain not just randomness in games but in life-all-around. "Rare events explain more and more of the world we live in, but at the same time remain as counter-intuitive to us as rare events did to our ancestors."
     
  9. Bulgarian

    Bulgarian Banned

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    This has nothing based of fact. This is how you imagine it would work. You dont know if the guying coding this was in a rush. You dont know who's decision it is to add "little gimmicks". You dont know if the coder wanted to finish this as fast as possible. You dont know a lot of things. Im not saying that repairing your hellforge hammer before will make you get better drops but it is a possibility. Maybe it could add a +.000001% difference in the rarity drops, you will never know unless you read the code yourself. It doesnt even stop there, because if Blizzard wanted to change something about diablo such as a little gimmick they could do so and it would only work battle.net (uber tristram, DC). You obviously dont know how something like this works, and its a good thing it is not your desicion on who to fire.
     
  10. rendo

    rendo Banned

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    I'm going to agree. Blizzard wouldn't arbitrarily add code and then not make any mentions about. If they did they'd have been vague about it.

    "Rumours of the strength of the hammer affect the power it beholds when it crushes the Hellforge stone"

    But they haven't, so why do people keep thinking it does? I got rushed a few times and they told me to repair the hammer, I'm like wtf? No. They go REPAIR the hammer or no more rush, and me being the ethical person I am, said fine. I go to town, wait a few seconds, head back down NOT repairing, and finish the rush (This was in normal so the rusher could be a prick, or maybe it was NM) Anyways, smash the stone, gets a crap drop.

    "You didn't repair the hammer!!1/1!321?#1!!" WELL NO S**T I didn't. As a coder, a crappy one :p, I know that it's completely randomized and small things like that won't affect the outcome of the drop.
     
  11. Dredd

    Dredd D3 Off Topic Moderator

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    @ rendo: We have a word filter here, but since you've just bypassed it, I guess you all ready know that, right? My advice to you is to not do it again. Thanks.
     
  12. Dawnmaster

    Dawnmaster IncGamers Member

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    It's actually rather simple, you have 1/11 chance to get any rune from Hel - Gul from the Hell Hellforge.

    Regardless what mythical raindances you do, or voodoo rituals, or repairing the hammer or whatever, your chances will always stay 1/11.

    As a small add: you have the exact same odds of getting 5 Gul's in a row, as well as getting 5 Hel's as well as getting about any combination possible.

    If you run the Hellforge 1000 or 10000 times, you'll see the chances are the same.

    Keep in mind you're didn't get a better chance if a Gul dropped instead of a Hel, they have the same chance, you just got lucky, that's all.
     
  13. Bulgarian

    Bulgarian Banned

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    As a coder you should know that everytime you click your mouse, move left, move right, repair something, sell something, ect... you could be triggering many different kinds of functions. Again, you dont know what diablo has written in it therefore you dont know what is going on technically with the program.
     
  14. buttershug

    buttershug IncGamers Member

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    No offence but you are still in high school aren't you?
    You don't know how the workplace works.
    I think coders write something like an average of 5 lines a day.

    You do agree that it would take extra code and therefore time to make the hellforge better if you repair the hammer, don't you?

    You must be one of very few that thinks Blizzard is staffed with eager beavers that don't understand that time is of the essense with tech.
    Get it out fast or don't get it out at all.
     
  15. Bulgarian

    Bulgarian Banned

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    Do you know anything about "the workplace"?

    Did you work in Blizzard's staff?

    Blizzard's staff would have probably been under some time restraints, but not the extent of what cannon fodder said.
     
  16. rendo

    rendo Banned

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    I'm unaware of your filter. I assumed because this is a site meant for the younger audience I could just censor it myself, yet still use the word. If I wanted to break your filter I would have done so without using asterix.

    I'm in College actually and I code on a MUD where I add more than 5 lines of code a day.
     
  17. pedu

    pedu IncGamers Member

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    Alrighty, out of sheer boredom i made 22 runs on single player with a completely edited sorc. Which completely messes up the scientificness of this test. But ill leave that to the individual to judge.

    Without repairing:

    fal
    io
    um
    fal
    ko
    um
    ist
    ist
    mal
    um
    lum

    With repairing:

    mal
    mal
    mal
    pul
    lum
    io
    lum
    pul
    lum
    lem
    fal

    And if we number hel as 1 and gul as 11, and calculate the average, we get 6,5 on the non repair serie, and 5,7 on the repair serie. 'Nuff said...
    yadda yadda... edited... yadda... must make millions of runs.... blah blah... we knew that.... blah blah... proves nothing... yadda etc etc you know the drill...:rolleyes:

    I know... but those mals at the beginning of the repair serie really got me thinking... :laugh:
     
  18. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder IncGamers Member

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    Actually, no. It is not how I imagine the workplace works, it is how I have been told by many people in the computer science field that it does work. And oh yea, it's also my personal experience. You see, I'm a coder myself. And besides that, in going through college I've talked to a lot of people who work in the videogame field. They have all agreed that this is basically how it works. Have you ever talked to professional coders? Ever heard of the term "CSS"? No, not cascading style sheets, Cool **** Syndrome. It is the practice of coders to want to add their own little gimmicks and such to what they make. It is the reason that they have supervisors and that what gets put in the game is decided on by people other than the ones coding it (mostly, and depending on how big the company is). What ends up happening is they add their little gimmick and it breaks something else, but they don't realize it. Then later someone else ends up having to go back and spend days figuring out what got broken and why, and fixing everything. It is a big reason that video games usually come out past announced deadlines. Bah, I could keep going on but you don't seem like the type that is really going to listen. Suffice to say, I wasn't just talking out of my arse.

    As for Blizz changing it, you're right they could. But I was operating from a viewpoint known as common sense. Maybe you've heard of it. If you'd stop playing devil's advocate to the point of being ridiculous you'd see that what you're saying doesn't make any sense. A "+.000001% difference"? Who in God's name would code in a difference like that? It's absurd. Why would a Blizz employee spend time changing this stupid little thing instead of fixing one of the hundreds of known (and oft complained about) bugs that exist in the game? "Make Inferno actually hit for the listed damage or give ppl a better rune drop for repairing the hammer? Hmm I guess I'd better start on that hammer right away!"

    The funny thing is that even if what you're saying is true you're not making any point. All you're doing is negating mine, because I could apply all of your statements to you and say that you all also don't know a thing. So at best you're using fairly ridiculous arguments just to try to negate mine because you think I'm at least as naive as you. It's pretty silly.



    Edit:
    And just because we keep going over this, here's how I would code the random function that determines which rune drops. Done in C++.
    Code:
    int ran()
    {
    
      int low=1;
      int high=11;      
      int ran2;
      time_t seconds;
      time(&seconds);
    
      srand((unsigned int) seconds);
    
      ran2 = rand() % (high - low + 1) + low;
    
      return (ran2);
    }
    Yea, it's overkill but I don't entirely trust that language's RNG so I seed it. Anyways, this would give you a random number between 1 and 11 which you could then correspond to the possible rune drops (or you could use the actual rune numbers, I didn't bother looking them up). Simple, easy, makes sense. No reason to fuss around and make it more complicated.
     
  19. Dawnmaster

    Dawnmaster IncGamers Member

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    You only asterixed a few letters of the word, still showing anyone with more than 2 braincells what word it is. The word filter here asterixes the entire word, leaving only to the imagination what the word could be.

    Again, if you'd gotten 11x Hel on the nonrepair and 11x Gul on the repair, it still wouldn't proove anything. The odds are exactly the same for either rune.

    11 runs is simply not enough to "proove" anything, about 500-1000 runs would be, but you can still end in a streak of luck or bad luck.

    The only way would be to look at the gamecode and see that the odds are 1/11 for every rune.

    EDIT
    "int ran()
    {

    int low=1;
    int high=11;
    int ran2;
    time_t seconds;
    time(&seconds);

    srand((unsigned int) seconds);

    ran2 = rand() % (high - low + 1) + low;

    return (ran2);
    }"

    Actually, you don't know what they have as 'rand()'
    You can fill in a number there, so that the random number is based on either the systemclock, the startupclock, the loginclock, the screenrate etc.

    (this gives you sometimes a fixed series of random numbers)
     
  20. pedu

    pedu IncGamers Member

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    If you go testing if something is true or not, you dont know that the odds are the same. Especially in this case. So, you ask yourself the question "Do i get better drops if i repair the hammer?" Because if you do, the odds are screwed up, and not 1/11. But if this thing is only a rumour (which it is), the odds would be 1/11 and the average of the drops would get closer to 6 as you do more and more runs. So, if you test something, you pretty much cant assume anything. Ehh.. kinda bold statement. But atleast here you cant assume anything.

    And yea, i mentioned that you need to do alot of runs.
     

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