My feedback on the various LF builds
Well, this has been a long time coming. I've been struggling with building a good LF zon with a viable back-up skill for lightning immunes at /players8. Since a couple of forum members have asked for updates in my two zon threads, here and there, this is the thread for it.
I've done a heck of a lot of number crunching on the different LF builds, and I still could not reach a conclusion, so I took the drastic step of rushing three different zon builds to Hell WSK. Virtually all my feedback below is based on Hell WSK runs at /p3 and /p8.
Lightning/Poison Javazon 20 each in LF/CS/PlgJ/PsnJ
I managed ~40,000 poison damage over ~16 secs. Even so, at /p8, it took far too long to kill LIs. Add in the 4 sec timer-delay (which also interferes with PsnJ and Valkyrie), PlgJ was more of a pain than an aid. Also, I had to fall back on Jab against Souls and Horror Mages, both of which are LI/PsnI.
At /p3, PlgJ's kill time was far more tolerable, but still required a little bit of waiting to dispatch LIs. I didn't feel that a 40 skill point investment was worth it for a 4 sec timer-delay skill with a slow killing speed. Some of you did warn me about this, but I needed to test this in-game to really appreciate that, even with ~ +15 to Javelin Skills, PlgJ still takes time to kill... probably too much time.
Lightning/Freezing Arrow Javazon 20 each in LF/CS/FA/CA
Aka Fishyzon, this build is quite solid. With a Melody matriarchal bow, I managed ~2000 cold damage at 10 frames per FA. At /p8, it took ~5-8 FAs to kill Souls. A bit risky and it took a bit more time than I liked, but FA is the best skill to kill LI Souls. However, with only LF/CS maxed, the lightning skills (and FA) struggled with Hell WSK monsters at /p8. Constant mana depletion (even with 6% mana leech) was also an issue with FA at over 20 mana per arrow.
At /p3, this build handled Hell WSK quite comfortably. Neither LIs or non-LIs lasted for long against LF/CS/FA. The only nitpick here is that, without a shield on Melody MB switch, my lightning resist fell to about 40, which is risky against Souls. This can easily be made up by carrying amber charms though. An alternative would be to use upg'ed Witchwild String, at a cost of -6 to bow & xbow skills, and a subsequently weaker FA.
Lightning/Fend Javazon 20 each in LF/CS/LS/Fend
The lightning tree was a killer. She made Hell WSK running at /p8 significantly faster. The addition of LS is a great and powerful skill in its own right against spread out monsters like Demon Imps, and at 9 mana per strike, is a dirt-cheap method of disposing even closely packed monsters, when I'm low on mana and prefer not to LF.
Of course, she slows down against LIs. I have to rely on Jab, my merc, a high level Valkyrie and a Decoy for that. But to make up for that, she does a pretty fair job with Baal's minions at /p8.
Fend was interesting. I tested it with 1 hard point, followed by maxing it, and with Titan's and Stoneraven. Even at 1 hard point, the numbers were scary. With my merc's Might aura active, Titan's did up to 1500 damage, and Stoneraven up to 2000 damage. When Fend was maxed, it reached 2000 damage and 3000 damage respectively. AR was ~7000.
Sadly, the Fend Bug put paid to this wonderful skill. Against single targets, even a 1 point Fend did more damage than Jabbing, whereas a maxed Fend easily 4-5 hit killed a /p8 target. But Fend was meant to be used against multiple targets, and in that situation, the whiffing was unbearable.
I could not justify maxing Fend just for a 'one target at a time' approach. Even a 1 point Fend became annoying when other monsters came within range and the zon started whiffing. Although Jab also whiffs at times, it is far less common (probably due to the one target at a time and shorter attack sequence).
Lastly, Fending with Stoneraven (i.e. shieldless) is not a good idea. The damage the zon does is scary, but so is the damage she receives. It's not something that I now would consider as a back-up skill. It's a different story if you build a dedicated Fendazon with no D/A/E, a big spear, lots of PDR%, leech and resists.
Strafe
The LF/CS/FA build had a few spare points, so I tried a 1 point Strafe (~slvl 8-10 with +skills). The bows I tried were Eaglehorn, Widowmaker, Kuko Shakaku, Blood Raven's Charge, WWS and Melody MB. None of them compared well against Jab in disposing single targets. The damage was further diluted against multiple targets, and since my zon's base AR was ~2200, she missed almost half the time. Since I did not have the spare points to max Penetrate, I had to rely on Eaglehorn for the ITD, which meant I had sub-par lightning resist. And lets not even talk about strafing Souls which have 90% physical resistance.
Another long (but thorough) post.
After all this, I guess I'm going for the pure lightning zon. Since even FA struggles at /p8 against LIs, I reckon that I might as well go pure lightning, and tone down the players setting to 3 when facing LIs and Jab them. That's the best compromise I can come up with.
C'est la vie.
Well, this has been a long time coming. I've been struggling with building a good LF zon with a viable back-up skill for lightning immunes at /players8. Since a couple of forum members have asked for updates in my two zon threads, here and there, this is the thread for it.
I've done a heck of a lot of number crunching on the different LF builds, and I still could not reach a conclusion, so I took the drastic step of rushing three different zon builds to Hell WSK. Virtually all my feedback below is based on Hell WSK runs at /p3 and /p8.
Lightning/Poison Javazon 20 each in LF/CS/PlgJ/PsnJ
I managed ~40,000 poison damage over ~16 secs. Even so, at /p8, it took far too long to kill LIs. Add in the 4 sec timer-delay (which also interferes with PsnJ and Valkyrie), PlgJ was more of a pain than an aid. Also, I had to fall back on Jab against Souls and Horror Mages, both of which are LI/PsnI.
At /p3, PlgJ's kill time was far more tolerable, but still required a little bit of waiting to dispatch LIs. I didn't feel that a 40 skill point investment was worth it for a 4 sec timer-delay skill with a slow killing speed. Some of you did warn me about this, but I needed to test this in-game to really appreciate that, even with ~ +15 to Javelin Skills, PlgJ still takes time to kill... probably too much time.
Lightning/Freezing Arrow Javazon 20 each in LF/CS/FA/CA
Aka Fishyzon, this build is quite solid. With a Melody matriarchal bow, I managed ~2000 cold damage at 10 frames per FA. At /p8, it took ~5-8 FAs to kill Souls. A bit risky and it took a bit more time than I liked, but FA is the best skill to kill LI Souls. However, with only LF/CS maxed, the lightning skills (and FA) struggled with Hell WSK monsters at /p8. Constant mana depletion (even with 6% mana leech) was also an issue with FA at over 20 mana per arrow.
At /p3, this build handled Hell WSK quite comfortably. Neither LIs or non-LIs lasted for long against LF/CS/FA. The only nitpick here is that, without a shield on Melody MB switch, my lightning resist fell to about 40, which is risky against Souls. This can easily be made up by carrying amber charms though. An alternative would be to use upg'ed Witchwild String, at a cost of -6 to bow & xbow skills, and a subsequently weaker FA.
Lightning/Fend Javazon 20 each in LF/CS/LS/Fend
The lightning tree was a killer. She made Hell WSK running at /p8 significantly faster. The addition of LS is a great and powerful skill in its own right against spread out monsters like Demon Imps, and at 9 mana per strike, is a dirt-cheap method of disposing even closely packed monsters, when I'm low on mana and prefer not to LF.
Of course, she slows down against LIs. I have to rely on Jab, my merc, a high level Valkyrie and a Decoy for that. But to make up for that, she does a pretty fair job with Baal's minions at /p8.
Fend was interesting. I tested it with 1 hard point, followed by maxing it, and with Titan's and Stoneraven. Even at 1 hard point, the numbers were scary. With my merc's Might aura active, Titan's did up to 1500 damage, and Stoneraven up to 2000 damage. When Fend was maxed, it reached 2000 damage and 3000 damage respectively. AR was ~7000.
Sadly, the Fend Bug put paid to this wonderful skill. Against single targets, even a 1 point Fend did more damage than Jabbing, whereas a maxed Fend easily 4-5 hit killed a /p8 target. But Fend was meant to be used against multiple targets, and in that situation, the whiffing was unbearable.
I could not justify maxing Fend just for a 'one target at a time' approach. Even a 1 point Fend became annoying when other monsters came within range and the zon started whiffing. Although Jab also whiffs at times, it is far less common (probably due to the one target at a time and shorter attack sequence).
Lastly, Fending with Stoneraven (i.e. shieldless) is not a good idea. The damage the zon does is scary, but so is the damage she receives. It's not something that I now would consider as a back-up skill. It's a different story if you build a dedicated Fendazon with no D/A/E, a big spear, lots of PDR%, leech and resists.
Strafe
The LF/CS/FA build had a few spare points, so I tried a 1 point Strafe (~slvl 8-10 with +skills). The bows I tried were Eaglehorn, Widowmaker, Kuko Shakaku, Blood Raven's Charge, WWS and Melody MB. None of them compared well against Jab in disposing single targets. The damage was further diluted against multiple targets, and since my zon's base AR was ~2200, she missed almost half the time. Since I did not have the spare points to max Penetrate, I had to rely on Eaglehorn for the ITD, which meant I had sub-par lightning resist. And lets not even talk about strafing Souls which have 90% physical resistance.
Another long (but thorough) post.
After all this, I guess I'm going for the pure lightning zon. Since even FA struggles at /p8 against LIs, I reckon that I might as well go pure lightning, and tone down the players setting to 3 when facing LIs and Jab them. That's the best compromise I can come up with.C'est la vie.
