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MS > all bow skills?

Discussion in 'Amazon' started by Superhal, Mar 7, 2004.

  1. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    MS > all bow skills?

    After a long time observing, it appears to me that MS somehow gets around the inherent blocking in hell, and hits at or near 100% regardless of displayed AR. (base 3 slvl MS, +5 eq, buriza.)

    right now, i can kill about as quickly as lvl 20 LF, even faster for smaller groups, and it's not even my main skill.

    can anybody else observe this?
     
  2. Ruvanal

    Ruvanal IncGamers Member

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    It does not really get around the blocking and such. If one of the missiles is blocked or does not succeed in it to-hit check, that missile will be removed from the list of missiles on the screen but it will not prevent one of the other missiles in the volley from succeeding getting through to hit the target. Example would be if a MS volley had 3 of its arrows passing through a target, if the first missile checked misses, then there are still 2 more missiles of that volley that could interact with the target before the NextDelay factor kicks in. While you may be able to hit a target with only one of the missiles in a MS salvo, you can frequently get 2 or 3 of them to do the check for hitting/not blocked before you are left with a no-hit situation.
     
  3. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    ah, coolio! ms rules...funny how it works really well not-maxxed. :)
     
  4. simmk81

    simmk81 IncGamers Member

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    but i wouldn't put it as ms > all bow skills since a lot of bow skills have quite comparable damage and mana consumption tradeoffs. the only differences between these skills are as difference as the grounds where their usages differ. like you can say ms and strafe are good crowd killers, however ms can deal with larger crowds at the tradeoff of high mana consumption, 3/4 weapon damage, and a per arrow per hit scenario. on the other hand, strafe may be fast and good for smaller sized groups, however, after factoring in next hit delay and chances to hit, it would seems that ga might be as able, if not, be better in hitting bosses/single moving(or stationary) target.

    ------
    bowazons have been balanced in 1.10- not nerfed
     
  5. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    it's better because:
    1. as pointed out earlier, it has a high chance of hitting (bypassing block and ar)

    2. this makes it better than all other skills that require AR or can be blocked, which is all the other bow skills (with the possible exception of FA's area attack, which appears to be auto hit, but not the arrow itself.)

    3. regarding mana usage, i use it to regain mana from FA.

    4. GA can be blocked, so i actually leech better from ms (7 after skills) than GA (21 after skills).

    i haven't made a strafer yet...it doesn't work well against large groups?
     
  6. Backdoor Bandit

    Backdoor Bandit IncGamers Member

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    I go for strafe personally, just seems like the better skill to me. There is a decent dmg bonus and it does off-screen damage, which is not the case for MS any more.

    -Backdoor Bandit
     
  7. lone_wolf

    lone_wolf Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    i said it before and i say it again

    ms and strafe are good skills

    they are just different

    ms is your everyday shotgun and strafe is your everyday m16 machine gun.

    both has uses and builds can be done where you use both of them

    get ms to 10 max strafe and get the other skills you want.

    that said i hate not to be able to hit things in hell

    thats why i have 9000+ ar for strafe and 15000+ ar for magic arrow on my zon
     
  8. PrayFor-Death

    PrayFor-Death IncGamers Member

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    an m16 is a rifle :)
     
  9. Omikron8

    Omikron8 IncGamers Member

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    As far as i know, in patch 1.10 (or perhaps earlier) multishot was changed in that it only makes ONE hit check for the entire volley of arrows. Either this was the multishot change or something similar because it was a big deal to zon players (no NOT the fixing of GA pierce).
     
  10. lone_wolf

    lone_wolf Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    well yes a fully automatic assult rifle. you get the point
     
  11. simmk81

    simmk81 IncGamers Member

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    the check is for each arrow that passes a target. a one hit check would mean an entire volley missing altogether if the die roll is small for ar.
     
  12. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    i did a completely unscientific study last night with ms vs strafe:

    (using buriza, max pierce, 20 total ias, clvl 83, slvl 7 ms, slvl 5 strafe vs zombie garden, 3 trial runs apiece per condition.)

    * slvl 7 ms took more bolts to kill the same group as slvl 5 strafe, everything else equal, roughly 2.5:1, although i attributed this to the wasted arrows/aiming from MS. Also, during the test, i had to kill single monsters with ms, where i generally use GA.

    * strafe took longer, timewise, than MS.

    * strafing, i took more damage than MS.

    * each strafe arrow is less likely to pierce all the way through the group compared to an ms volley. less overall damage, perhaps? per strafe volley, i seldom saw any arrows make it all the way through the group, while out of 11 arrows per ms volley, 3-4 always made it through.

    * never saw my mana ball move during strafe, even on a single monster.

    my conclusions:
    ms kills faster and safer than strafe.
     
  13. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    Superhal, in the situation of Nihilak's Temple MS would be better than Strafe as it would if you used it against Cows. The number of targets are great for MS to kill efficently. But there are too many targets for strafe to be effective, it works better with groups of 3 to 7 and gets quite weak when there are more than 12 targets or so. Strafe is a good way to clear the Pit with a Merc and Valk to pin the monsters as they tend to come in small groups strafe can handle easilly.

    Most amazons are using Strafe in 1.10 but MS can be made into an effective way to clear large numbers of monsters very fast if you can solve the problems of heavy mana consumption. This mana loss can be bad when shooting at things you can't leech from (i.e. Skeletons or PIs). Also you need a mana efficient way to deal with single targets and bosses.

    Your original points on using many arrows to overcome target blocking and less need for AR are perfectly correct at close ranges and give MS an advantage ... just like a shotgun. But this advantage falls off rapidly with distance as the arrows fan out and only one hits per target.
    I think my next Amazon might use MS rather than strafe as I fancy the challenge of building a different zon, and having one that is good in other areas of the game.
     
  14. Ruvanal

    Ruvanal IncGamers Member

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    The change that you are referring to was done in an earlier patch. That was when the Multishot missiles were changed to have a NextHit-NextDelay factor to prevent more than one at a time from interacting with a single target. This was also the point at which Strafe also got its NextHit-NextDelay factor, but it was unrealised since that part of the information was hidden inside some DLL internal tables that are difficult to access. Those that did not understand what had been done to the game, assumed that this was a change to make it only a one to-hit check per volley per target; but that is not how th egame actually handles the situation.

    When you use the multishot skill, it will generate a set of several missiles that are on slightly different trajectories. Each of these missile is a individual item in the game with a copy of the damage parameters to use and a tag to indicate who fired them (for some look-up information when hitting, like who to credit the damage/kill with or look up the mf%). At this point the missiles are leaving the bow and as far as the code for handling the various objects in the game (like missiles, monster, rocks, trees, doors, characters, etc.) it does not 'know' which missile comes from which volley, only the character of origin. To the game it does not matter if multiple missiles are from the the smae volley or not when processing the attacks, it just matters how to handle multiple missiles that have NextDelay factor on them. Until one of the missiles actually damages the target, the NextDelay 'tag' is not applied, which will allow multiple missiles to each 'attempt' to process in such a way that they could hit the target.
     
  15. Shadoway

    Shadoway IncGamers Member

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    Don't even talk about strafe if you don't have it maxed.
     
  16. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    which makes MS even MORE attractive. :)
     
  17. simmk81

    simmk81 IncGamers Member

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    pardon the possible rudeness but for once i would really like to see you run tight places like pit, spider lair, maggot lair and see whether your opinion of ms would be discounted. Ms is good yes, effective as a main skill, can be... but ms > all other bow skills? everything is balanced is some way. Can ms fire elemental arrows? can ms fire guided missiles? can ma deal magic damage? of course, pitting ms in terms of damage versus most of these skills is a joke. How then against ga and strafe? circumstances-wise and especially in the highly debated pvp. ms > strafe? ms > ga? i think the previous posters have painted a clear picture.
     
  18. Freyas

    Freyas IncGamers Member

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    I don't think that you can reach a conclusion such as MS > all other bow skills. If you are going for pure damage, I will take FA versus your multishot anyday.... so long as it isn't against cold immunes. An amazon setup based around Freezing Arrow can do far more damage than any of the physical skills. The only drawback is that cold immunes are more common than physical immunes in many areas of the game.

    Multishot outperforms strafe in damage against crowds of monsters- that has always been the case. However, against smaller groups, strafe does just as much or more damage. Strafe is useful both against groups of monsters and against single targets, while multi really isn't that great for single targets or small groups.

    As for the argument that strafe isn't as good as multi because strafe gets much better with higher levels of the skill is not very relevant. If you use multishot, you will want a skill to use for killing bosses. This skill is probably going to be guided arrow, which most people will max for the increased damage and reduced mana cost. However, strafe is not much worse than guided arrow for killing a single target, and not much worse than multishot against larger groups of monsters. Strafe is a very versatile skill, where as multishot and guided arrow are much more specialized. If you're going for one amazon skill to use in every situation, strafe would be the best. If you're going for the most physical damage output over time, multishot will win out, at least if you're fighting in a crowded area, such as the cow level. If you're going for pure damage over time, a well-synergized FA or exploding arrow with a fast bow and 100% piercing can do the best.

    All this being said, I don't think that the amazon has any one "best" bow skill.... they all have their own uses in different situations. Each skill has their own strengths and weaknesses, and each will excell in certain situations. While it might be rediculous to use magic arrow to clean out the cow level, it's equally rediculous to clear out the arcane sanctuary with multishot. Not that it's necessarily impossible to do either of these things, but there are better skills that you can use for these situations that will work much better.
     
  19. Llankukto

    Llankukto IncGamers Member

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    Knockback

    Has anyone noticed that knockback applies to strafe but not MS? That makes a 2 frame strafe with knockback really good at keeping pressure off a valk/merc.
     
  20. hittitian

    hittitian IncGamers Member

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    Really? It was working for multi in 1.09, but I actually didn't try it in 1.10. Someone answer this.
     

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