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More FOH dmg + less conviction > Less FOH dmg + more conviction ?

Discussion in 'Paladin' started by vietl0yalty, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. vietl0yalty

    vietl0yalty Diabloii.Net Member

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    More FOH dmg + less conviction > Less FOH dmg + more conviction ?

    I was wondering which is preferably better in pvp...5k foh with -110 resists or 5.2k foh with -100 resists? or is it one of those "what you prefer personally" type of thing?
     
  2. koeraokse

    koeraokse Diabloii.Net Member

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    Depends what are you building, you can max all needed skills if you are building a pure foh...


    *priit
     
  3. Fearoth

    Fearoth Diabloii.Net Member

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    More FOH imo, why? because good people will stack resist against you anyway pretty much negating your conviction, a standard v/t build always left conviction last only putting points in it when everything else is done, for just that reason.
     
  4. vietl0yalty

    vietl0yalty Diabloii.Net Member

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    well sed fearoth...but usually doesnt v/ts have a lil bit more than just -100 resists from conviction?
     
  5. Weltkriegpally

    Weltkriegpally Diabloii.Net Member

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    No, I would say most v/ts have -80ish resists from conviction, since they leave it at one point. My v/t is the exception, rather than the rule, since I preferred more -resists to more foh damage. As I believe you are making a mage, you should probably do what you can to get strong both. as is, your damage there is pretty close even with the minor -10 resists difference, so probably go the damage route.

    --welt
     
  6. Rane-

    Rane- Diabloii.Net Member

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    I disagree completly. I believe your statement supports my thoughts instead.

    Goo people WILL stack resist and they WILL nullify your FoH. Once this is done it doesn't matter if your FoH reads 5k or 5.2k. The point will be that it DOES nothing. For this reason I believe it is far more important to make it harder to negate your FoH, ie put the points in Conviction. Even if they still negate this build, you will have forced them to make more sacrifices in gear and hence weaken them even more. I have no doubt that Conviction is far more important than FoH damage. All you need is enough FoH for it to be a threat, something people will want to negate. Once you have that it's far more benificial to try and make it as hard for your enemy to negate as possible.

    And on that note of v/t's -
    In my experience I have found that v/t's do indeed get lvl25 Conviction with gear and only put about 20-30 points in FoH/Holy Shock. That's what I'd do, that's what I see most people do, and that's what seems to work.
     
  7. vietl0yalty

    vietl0yalty Diabloii.Net Member

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    so how much dmg wud FOH have to do in order to be a threat or to make someone want to negate it?
     
  8. De4dEyE

    De4dEyE Diabloii.Net Member

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    A problem with putting more points into conviction is this:

    What happens if the guy you're playing makes it exceedingly hard for conviction to get a lock on?

    Not only will you just be relying on your base FoH damage, but you've kinda wasted points by putting them into something that comes into effect very rarely.
     
  9. De4dEyE

    De4dEyE Diabloii.Net Member

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    A problem with putting more points into conviction is this:

    What happens if the guy you're playing makes it exceedingly hard for conviction to get a lock on?

    Not only will you just be relying on your base FoH damage, but you've kinda wasted points by putting them into something that comes into effect very rarely.
     
  10. Rane-

    Rane- Diabloii.Net Member

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    That really is just flawed logic. According to that why should any Templar or hybrid put any points in conviction at all? He would be better off with those points in a zeal switch than in conviction becuase what happens if Conviction doesn't lock on... :rolleyes:.

    The point of FoH is to force them to negate it. Not to actually rely on it to kill for you. I can't believe there's really a dispute on this. Everyone I've played with/talked to about this since the dawn of time (DII release) has known that it's better to get more -enemy res once your damage becomes a threat. I can't recall a single hybrid templar that had like 20 FoH/20 HS/1 Conviction(15 with skills). Everyone goes something like 15/15/11(25with skills).

    How much damage is a threat really depends on your mathup. I personally would say that 4-5k FoH should definatly be enough of a threat to anyone to make them want to negate it.
     
  11. Sir SDG

    Sir SDG Banned

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    I personally am a fan of 25 conv at a min.. IMO -150 resist is tough to beat with stacking res. but -100 isnt much of a challenge with some absorb and some good 11%light res mods on charms. aka gettin a char out of the negatives and having a bit of absorb on pretty much makes foh have to hit multiple times. when If your at -150 on your conv any negative on your targets resist makes foh actually do more damage than listed. aka auradins dont kill you with pulses on your base res they kill you when the conv hit and drops your res -150 and your left in the negatives causing they pulse to do MUCH more damage... same thing w FOH.. FOh pallies have a history of owning chars who have a negative resist to light damage when conv hits them.. because that negative greatly increases damage taken by that element.

    Ive even gotten to the point where I will stack conv far above 25 so that other conv using paladins dont negate my conv when theyre is higher. granted its only needed to be above 25 conv when facing another conv using paladin BUT id rather cover those bases instead of get beat on by any foh pally who comes along.


    im not quite sure on the math of it since my exp is from practical play. but I tend to think that if you have say 75 res to light and u get hit with foh and have no lowering of res on you that your res of 75 actually lessens the total foh damage by a %. aka Ive been out of the 13.5 range of conv and gotten hit with foh with a 95 light res and it barely damaged me. ( this char being my dreamadin whos got major light res and no absorb) if anyone is versed in the math of resists to ele damage id like to know if it is a % damage resduced on having a high resist or what all..

    better to be armed with fact.
     
  12. Rane-

    Rane- Diabloii.Net Member

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    There's no special math that only applies to resists or anything, it's just that simple math dictates that at some point it's better to reduce their resists instead of adding more to the base damage.

    I'll make it really simple. While using this character one of three things will happen;
    Enemy1 - They will negate your FoH no matter what.
    Enemy2 - They won't be able to negate it because their character isn't able to free up enough gear to do so and still be effective. They will however have about 75 all res before conviction.
    Enemy3 - They have shit res 'cause they don't care for it. They vs Melee chars not you, you dirty Zealot killer.

    Let's say we take our two pala's and name them;
    'Pala A' - 5.2k FoH and -100 enemy res
    'Pala B' - 5.0k FoH and -110 enemy res
    And let's see how they fair in each of the matchups.

    We'll take Enemy1 first;
    Pala A - His FoH is negated by sacrifing enough gear to counter the -100res and whatever else is needed to completly negate FoH normally.
    Pala B - His FoH is negated by sacrifing enough gear to counter the -110res and whatever else is needed to completly negate FoH normally.
    *Pala B has forced his opponent to sacrifice more gear to do the same thing. It looks like only 10 more res but you try and get 10 more res when you have already given up so much just to negate the rest of it. The real point is that if this paladin had even more points spent in Conviction the sacrifice would have even more of an impact, which would increase exponentially.

    Now we'll vs Enemy2.
    Pala A - Conviction takes their res down to -25. You deal 5200/6*1.25 = 1083.
    Pala B - Conviction takes their res down to -35. You deal 5000/6*1.35 = 1125.
    *Pala B does more damage.

    And lastly Enemy3
    Pala A - Conviction takes their res down to -100. You deal 5200/6*2 = 1733.
    Pala B - Conviction takes their res down to -100. You deal 5000/6*2 = 1666.
    *Pala A does more damage.

    So the end result is that lowering your enemies res is better all the time except when it has no effect (would take them lower that -100 which it can't do.) Like that wasn't obvious from the outset :rolleyes:.
     
  13. Sir SDG

    Sir SDG Banned

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    my exp is more from playing aura dins and facing the occasional FoH pally. those are the instances where having the greater conv does matter

    IMO any paladin who uses conv as theyre aura should have at the least 25 in it. albeit skill gear or off aura gcs. at the same time though I think it wise to keep a full 10 off aura gc on hand. and beat otehr conv using paladins out on having higher conv than them... even though its lower of res effect stops at 25.


    plus IMO facing a char whos got 75 res already its kinda nice to drop that as far as you can with a full -150 to resist 25 conv. a guy at -75 res takes a beating from ele damage.
     
  14. RetroStar

    RetroStar Diabloii.Net Member

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    No use dealing a lot of lightning dmg when they can resist most of it.

    I prefer more conviction + less foh dmg.
     
  15. jumbo_SHRIMP

    jumbo_SHRIMP Diabloii.Net Member

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    also, dont forget, when another paladin has a higher conviction than u, yours doesnt count...just the stupid way blizzard franked up the aura...higher foh is always higher damage btw...and dont forget facets in the mix, they work well for both high foh damage and less enemy resists

    phelix
     
  16. vietl0yalty

    vietl0yalty Diabloii.Net Member

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    well im under tight and specific equipment that leaves no room for facets...if i opted to have at least level 25 conviction then i will do about 3.8-3.9k foh (15/15/11) and this is all at level 95 with at least 6k hammers...this is the highest im willing to go with any char and even getting thru level 92-95 is a *itch so ... if someone thinks i should take a couple of points off from conviction or keep it like it is...i need some advice
     

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