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MOO! A Cow Question.

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Peacrusher, Mar 1, 2004.

  1. Peacrusher

    Peacrusher IncGamers Member

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    MOO! A Cow Question.

    I've been pretty lucky in my MF endevours... running pindle, meph, and baal...

    Pits are so-so... (haven't dropped well for some time)

    Pre-Patch 1.09 cows were the haven for my MF zons... Lots of targets and they could drop almost anything...

    I want to know about your necros taking on the big bad Cowies....

    *NOTE. I MF with a lvl ** summoner. 13 buff skellies and 8 mages... I assume I'll have to use some revives but not many...LVL 30 CE will wipe out mobs... heh.

    Tell me of your experiences. :surprise:
     
  2. Necrochild313

    Necrochild313 IncGamers Member

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    We should probably do some testing, but i've read that the drops have been cut down in hell moo moo farm.
     
  3. Peacrusher

    Peacrusher IncGamers Member

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    Let's do some testing tonight... I'll msg you when I log on... You grab your bonemancer and I'll bring my summoner.

    We'll share drops. I'll make sure I'm wearing full MF gear.
     
  4. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    USEast Ladder right? I'll join, and you two can have the drops, i need exp.

    My experience from MF'ing cows is that the drops are okay, and I do mean okay. I've noticed that the larger the game, the better the drops.

    Now, what I do cows for? RUNES. I found OHM rune in there the other night.

    gg cows!

    g

    out :yep:
     
  5. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    very interesting, could you guys test 100 hours of cows vs 100 hours of pit runs plz? :D
     
  6. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    Cows are a very nice alternative to continual pit runs. I use my Wind Druid who has killed Baal to get the leg and open a game for my original Necro. Using skellies backed up with revives makes Cows a cinch and CE is quick finisher once the first corpse is made. The Cow King can drop some good stuff so I always play until I get him... He's dropped some nice set and unique stuff for me including Guardian Angel and parts of trangs, whitstan's shield and other middle ranking things. I've not had much luck with the runes the best is a Lum so far and that was from a chest. The other bosses don't seem to drop much that is useful but I have gotten a Ravenfrost from them.
     
  7. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    Ok this is interesting. Let me see if I can make the following actually make sense.

    1. Supposedly, Hell Bovine (Hell) has a 0.00252767% chance to drop armo87 and weap87, which are the highest TC's in the game.

    WEAP87 is the following: Mythical Sword,Colossus Blade,Legend Spike,Berserker Axe,Glorious Axe,Thunder Maul,Caduceus,Archon Staff,Unearthed Wand,Giant Thresher,War Pike,Hydra Bow,Winged Harpoon,Scissors Suwayyah,Dimensional Shard

    ARMO87 is the following: armo87
    Sacred Armor,Colossus Girdle,Ogre Gauntlets,Myrmidon Boots,Corona,Diadem,Guardian Crown,Dream Spirit,Vortex Shield,Bloodlord Skull,

    2. Now what is funny, while they can drop from the base item tc of pretty much every item in the game, they cannot drop the unique versions of certain items. Here is a list of some popular items, their tc, and the hell bovine (hell) chance to drop:

    IK ARMOR (ARMO84): 0.00252767
    TAL ARMOR (ARMO87): 0.02016326
    STORMSHIELD (ARMO72): 0.16068668
    MARROWALK (ARMO72): 0.16068668
    HOMONCULUS (ARMO54): 0.16004700
    DEATH'S WEB (WEAP87): 0.00505534
    SHADOW DANCERS (ARMO87): 0.00252767
    KIRA'S GUARDIAN (ARMO87): CAN'T DROP
    GRIFFON'S EYE (ARMO87): CAN'T DROP
    HERALD OF ZAKARUM (ARMO51): 0.17076447
    TOMB REAVER (WEAP81): CAN'T DROP
    REAPERS TOLL (WEAP72): CAN'T DROP
    STORMSPIRE (WEAP87): 0.00505534
    BONEHEW (WEAP60): 0.40028386
    CROWN OF AGES (ARMO87): CAN'T DROP

    3. I say that cows are good for runes, but looking at the following you'd never guess it:

    r01(Rune/[1/El]) 0.03694207
    r02(Rune/[2/Eld]) 0.02462805
    r03(Rune/[3/Tir]) 0.02052337
    r04(Rune/[4/Nef]) 0.01368225
    r05(Rune/[5/Eth]) 0.01436636
    r06(Rune/[6/Ith]) 0.00957757
    r07(Rune/[7/Tal]) 0.01197197
    r08(Rune/[8/Ral]) 0.00798131
    r09(Rune/[9/Ort]) 0.00838038
    r10(Rune/[10/Thul]) 0.00558692
    r11(Rune/[11/Amn]) 0.00512134
    r12(Rune/[12/Sol]) 0.00341423
    r13(Rune/[13/Shael]) 0.00270293
    r14(Rune/[14/Dol]) 0.00180195
    r15(Rune/[15/Hel]) 0.00138901
    r16(Rune/[16/Io]) 0.00092600
    r17(Rune/[17/Lum]) 0.00070415
    r18(Rune/[18/Ko]) 0.00046943
    r19(Rune/[19/Fal]) 0.00035452
    r20(Rune/[20/Lem]) 0.00023635
    r21(Rune/[21/Pul]) 0.00017788
    r22(Rune/[22/Um]) 0.00011858
    r23(Rune/[23/Mal]) 0.00010182
    r24(Rune/[24/Ist]) 0.00006788
    r25(Rune/[25/Gul]) 0.00005824
    r26(Rune/[26/Vex]) 0.00003883
    r27(Rune/[27/Ohm]) 0.00003330
    r28(Rune/[28/Lo]) 0.00002220
    r29(Rune/[29/Sur]) 0.00001903
    r30(Rune/[30/Ber]) 0.00001269
    r31(Rune/[31/Jah]) 0.00001088
    r32(Rune/[32/Cham]) 0.00000725
    r33(Rune/[33/Zod]) 0.00000081

    4. The worst damn thing about hell bovine (hell) is that their best drop, which is a 20.83333333% chance is to drop: NOTHING!

    So I hope that helps and not confuses.

    g

    out :yep:
     
  8. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    I personally think that SOB is a pain in the arse. Check out his drop stats, again mind you this is % to drop base item, then take into account your mf rolls and such.

    weap3(Weapons/[Lv.3]) 0.09909120
    weap6(Weapons/[Lv.6]) 0.41618304
    weap9(Weapons/[Lv.9]) 1.18116710
    weap12(Weapons/[Lv.12]) 1.48081889
    weap15(Weapons/[Lv.15]) 1.68746765
    weap18(Weapons/[Lv.18]) 1.89955643
    weap21(Weapons/[Lv.21]) 1.88884963
    weap24(Weapons/[Lv.24]) 1.38171064
    weap27(Weapons/[Lv.27]) 1.07926388
    weap30(Weapons/[Lv.30]) 1.10083544
    weap33(Weapons/[Lv.33]) 1.48741974
    weap36(Weapons/[Lv.36]) 1.83008238
    weap39(Weapons/[Lv.39]) 2.32947300
    weap42(Weapons/[Lv.42]) 2.43865476
    weap45(Weapons/[Lv.45]) 2.19984179
    weap48(Weapons/[Lv.48]) 2.14656773
    weap51(Weapons/[Lv.51]) 2.38992274
    weap54(Weapons/[Lv.54]) 2.32516966
    weap57(Weapons/[Lv.57]) 2.56568578
    weap60(Weapons/[Lv.60]) 2.38124067
    weap63(Weapons/[Lv.63]) 1.30848211
    weap66(Weapons/[Lv.66]) 0.12496738 (thunderstroke)

    mele3(Melee Weapons/[Lv.3]) 0.16041951
    mele6(Melee Weapons/[Lv.6]) 0.67376194
    mele9(Melee Weapons/[Lv.9]) 1.91220055
    mele12(Melee Weapons/[Lv.12]) 2.36907531
    mele15(Melee Weapons/[Lv.15]) 2.58955589
    mele18(Melee Weapons/[Lv.18]) 2.75099181
    mele21(Melee Weapons/[Lv.21]) 2.88084486
    mele24(Melee Weapons/[Lv.24]) 2.99049152
    mele27(Melee Weapons/[Lv.27]) 3.24109524
    mele30(Melee Weapons/[Lv.30]) 3.65725482
    mele33(Melee Weapons/[Lv.33]) 4.11630914
    mele36(Melee Weapons/[Lv.36]) 2.94078166
    mele39(Melee Weapons/[Lv.39]) 0.29567973

    armo3(Armor/[Lv.3]) 0.12975535
    armo6(Armor/[Lv.6]) 0.54497249
    armo9(Armor/[Lv.9]) 1.54668383
    armo12(Armor/[Lv.12]) 1.92494710
    armo15(Armor/[Lv.15]) 2.13851177
    armo18(Armor/[Lv.18]) 2.32527412
    armo21(Armor/[Lv.21]) 2.38484725
    armo24(Armor/[Lv.24]) 2.18610108
    armo27(Armor/[Lv.27]) 2.16017956
    armo30(Armor/[Lv.30]) 1.87309335
    armo33(Armor/[Lv.33]) 1.49762209
    armo36(Armor/[Lv.36]) 2.56371807
    armo39(Armor/[Lv.39]) 1.31257636
    armo42(Armor/[Lv.42]) 1.21932738
    armo45(Armor/[Lv.45]) 1.09992089
    armo48(Armor/[Lv.48]) 1.07328387
    armo51(Armor/[Lv.51]) 1.19496137
    armo54(Armor/[Lv.54]) 1.16258483
    armo57(Armor/[Lv.57]) 1.28284289
    armo60(Armor/[Lv.60]) 1.19062034
    armo63(Armor/[Lv.63]) 0.65424106
    armo66(Armor/[Lv.66]) 0.06248369 (sandstorm trek's / ormus' robes)

    rin(Rings/) 0.39702233
    amu(Amulets/) 0.19851117

    cm1(Charms/) 0.09925558
    cm2(Charms/[L]) 0.09925558
    cm3(Charms/[G]) 0.09925558

    ***(Jewel/) 0.09925558

    r01(Rune/[1/El]) 0.04993860
    r02(Rune/[2/Eld]) 0.03329240
    r03(Rune/[3/Tir]) 0.02774366
    r04(Rune/[4/Nef]) 0.01849578
    r05(Rune/[5/Eth]) 0.01942057
    r06(Rune/[6/Ith]) 0.01294704
    r07(Rune/[7/Tal]) 0.01618380
    r08(Rune/[8/Ral]) 0.01078920
    r09(Rune/[9/Ort]) 0.01132866
    r10(Rune/[10/Thul]) 0.00755244
    r11(Rune/[11/Amn]) 0.00692307
    r12(Rune/[12/Sol]) 0.00461538
    r13(Rune/[13/Shael]) 0.00365384
    r14(Rune/[14/Dol]) 0.00243590
    r15(Rune/[15/Hel]) 0.00187767
    r16(Rune/[16/Io]) 0.00125178
    r17(Rune/[17/Lum]) 0.00095187
    r18(Rune/[18/Ko]) 0.00063458
    r19(Rune/[19/Fal]) 0.00047924
    r20(Rune/[20/Lem]) 0.00031949
    r21(Rune/[21/Pul]) 0.00024045
    r22(Rune/[22/Um]) 0.00016030
    r23(Rune/[23/Mal]) 0.00013764
    r24(Rune/[24/Ist]) 0.00009176
    r25(Rune/[25/Gul]) 0.00007873
    r26(Rune/[26/Vex]) 0.00005249


    So as you can see above, his best 2 drop tc's, the items are mediocre at best. What's worse, the best item in those highest tc's (etheral edge, which still sucks) he can't drop the unique version! :rant:
     
  9. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    I think that the Cows and Cow King can no longer drop the best set and unique Armours like the IK sacred armour and so on since the base level of the Moo Moo Farm at 81 is too low. The Cow King being a super unique and the several uniques and their minions will be 3 levels higher so the best quality that can be dropped is 84 ... and Sacred Armour is Qlvl 85. I have seen a cracked Sacred Armour drop but not a proper white, blue or anything better.
     
  10. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    all above info was found directly on d2data.net which is a pretty solid source of info.

    maybe their (and I) are wrong though.

    g
     
  11. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    No :lol: I was using the same data... maybe I don't understand it. In fact I can say I don't really understand it at all. All this stuff about treasure classes, quality, ilvl and so ad infinitum confuses me. Unless you know better the monster level affects the quality level of things that can be dropped and the cows suffer from that.

    I am definitely not expecting to get the best stuff in the game from the cows while I'm sure the pit or WSK can provide that. But I like the cows since it brings back some fond old memories of 1.09 and the drops are not bad. I still want to find lot of the middle TC and quality stuff on the ladder.
     
  12. Peacrusher

    Peacrusher IncGamers Member

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    I look at it this way... If I find stuff that's useful.. then Its worth it... Mid lvl runes to me are the best drops to get.... On ladder we can Cube like mad.... Maybe never will reach that ist or mal or ber or whatever but raising to higher usefule runes is beneficial.. like Shaels, dol, io, lem, lums are all trading items... I can get those then I'm happy.

    Gvandale I think your on my F list.. thought you never get into a conversation.... I'll msg when we start cowin.. you can join for the exp.
     
  13. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    yea i am. i just confused with all your /f messaging you do.

    most the time i just mf my arse off. of my 3 friends, 2 are quitting like any day now (can't wait to pillage their accounts), so I'll be more chatty.

    and i thought i was supposed to give you some items or something? oh well. mf'ing has been SOOOOOO good to me lately.

    but i'm down for tonight.

    g
     
  14. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    I'm by far no expert on tc's and ilvl/qlvl, but i do know that the cows can / will drop some of the nicer items.

    the thing that confuses me about all that garbage though, is how it says the cows can drop armo87, but can't drop certain uniques from armo87.

    i'm going to link this thread in a new post at the stats forum for some help.

    g

    EDIT: Lets hope these guys help us (at least me) better understand this confusion. check THIS thread.
     
  15. Peacrusher

    Peacrusher IncGamers Member

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    I never took you up on that offer for gear but I may browse a bit... I got mules that need stuff to stay alive... lol

    Just msg me back sometime when your interested in playing...
     
  16. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    right on. i'll have to take you up on that offer, since my 1 surviving friend is rarely on....dammed wife!
     
  17. Hakai_no_Tenshi

    Hakai_no_Tenshi IncGamers Member

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    Version 1.10 introduces many new changes over version 1.09 with the biggest one being what I term the "area override" effect. Based on your question above, it is very possible for a creature to be able to drop a given base item but not able to drop the unique version of it.

    Every base item has a "qlvl" (term coined by Jarulf) which is a fixed number associated with it. It is a number used in grouping items into TreasureClasses in fixed intervals of 3 i.e armo3, armo6 .... armo87 and is also used to calculate alvl (affix levels) which determines what kinds of magical properties can show up on that item. A quick example of TC grouping would be qlvl=1-3 would be in TC3, qlvl=4-6 would be in TC6 ... qlvl=85-87 would be in TC87. (Note that in 1.09, TC90 existed but has been eliminated in 1.10 by reshuffling items into lower TCs)

    In addition to the base item qlvl, there is also a qlvl associated with unique and set items. This qlvl determines if a monster may drop the unique/set version of the base item and this only occurs if the monster level (mlvl) is greater than or equal to the unique/set qlvl. Note that in this case, a monster may always drop any base item it is capable of so long as that base item is part of a TC that it can drop. However, after a particular base item has been chosen to drop, the game now determines if it can drop the unique/set version of it by checking the mlvl against the qlvl of the unique/set. One thing to note is that in general, the qlvl for a set item is usually much lower than the qlvl of the base item so there are no issues there. However, there are several instances where the qlvl of a unique item is much higher than the qlvl of the base item.

    In 1.09, there were a few examples of how a monster may be able to drop the base item but not the unique version with the most notable example being Cranium Basher. This was a TC87 item (1.09 Thunder Maul qlvl = 87) while the Cranium Basher had a qlvl of 91. This effectively made it a TC90 item because while most creatures in A5 Hell were mlvl 90, they could not drop it since their mlvl (90) < 91. This meant that only a few creatures such as A5 superuniques, uniques, champions and Baal could drop it.

    Fast forwarding to 1.10, the "area override" effect I mentioned before means that in Nightmare and Hell, the monster mlvls are now determined by the area level. Different areas have a level associated with them and the list for this can be found here . Hence, regular creatures have an mlvl = are level, champions have mlvl = area level + 2 and uniques have mlvl = area level + 3. Act bosses are not affected by this. The other side to this is that there is also a TC upgrade for any creature that gets it's mlvl bumped up. As with 1.09, there are many examples of how a creature can drop a base item but not the unique version of it with the most notable one being Pindleskin. Nihlatak's Temple (which is where he resides) is level 83 which means that Pindleskin's mlvl = 86. While Pindleskin can drop every base item in the game, there are 3 items he cannot drop which are Arachnid's Mesh (qlvl = 87), Tyreal's Might (qlvl = 87) and Azurewrath (qlvl = 87).

    However, the funny part about this is that Mephisto can drop two of those items i.e Arachnid and Azurewrath. Arachnid's Mesh is a TC63 item (Spiderweb Sash) and Azurewrath is a TC75 item (Phase Blade) which means that those base items are within Mephisto's TC range (78). However, his mlvl (87) is high enough to drop the unique versions of those base items while Pindleskin (mlvl = 86) cannot. Mephisto cannot drop Tyreal's Might because the base item (Sacred Armor) is a TC87 item and Mephisto can only drop up to TC78.

    The exact definition of TCs is a little complicated since it is not really how most people think of it i.e not a straightforward definition of "creature X drops from TC Y". The TC a monster drops from is based on a recursive definition of TC groups such that following the tree down to it's roots tell you if a creature can drop from a particular TC. You can go to the Phrozen Keep if you wish to learn more of this. Anyway, 1.10 introduces the concept of "levels" within a TC group such that if a creature gets it's mlvl bumped up by the area override, then it's TC group also gets an upgrade and can drop better base items.

    Based on the info above, we find that the Moo Moo Farm in Hell is level 81 which means that all regular cows are mvl 81, champions are mlvl 83 and uniques are mlvl 84. Regular 1.10 cows drop from a TC group called "Cow (H)" which includes armo87 and weap87. While this means that they can drop any base item up to TC87, they however have a hard time dropping unique versions of the top end items. In particular, they cannot drop these unique items:

    The Gladiator's Bane (qlvl 85)
    Arkaine's Valor (qlvl 85)
    Schaefer's Hammer (qlvl 83)
    The Cranium Basher (qlvl 85)
    The Grandfather (qlvl 85)
    Warshrike (qlvl 83)
    Tomb Reaver (qlvl 86)
    Azurewrath (qlvl 87)
    Tyrael's Might (qlvl 87)
    Souldrainer (qlvl 82)
    Executioner's Justice (qlvl 83)
    Wisp Projector (qlvl 84)
    Mang Song's Lesson (qlvl 86)
    Ethereal Edge (qlvl 82)
    The Reaper's Toll (qlvl 83)
    Hellrack (qlvl 84)
    Alma Negra (qlvl 85)
    Shadowkiller (qlvl 85)
    Griffon's Eye (qlvl 84)
    Crown of Ages (qlvl 86)
    Andariel's Visage (qlvl 85)
    Dragonscale (qlvl 84)
    Medusa's Gaze (qlvl 84)
    Ravenlore (qlvl 82)
    Boneshade (qlvl 84)
    Wolfhowl (qlvl 85)
    Kira's Guardian (qlvl 85)
    Ormus' Robes (qlvl 83)
    Stormlash (qlvl 86)
    Halaberd's Reign (qlvl 85)
    Dracul's Grasp (qlvl 84)
    Templar's Might (qlvl 82)
    Arachnid Mesh (qlvl 87)
    Metalgrid (qlvl 85)
    Arioc's Needle (qlvl 85)
    Wraithflight (qlvl 84)
    Headhunter's Glory (qlvl 83)
    Rainbow Facet (qlvl 85)

    They can, however, drop *any* set item in the game since every set item in the game has a qlvl less than 81. I hope that helps.

    --T
     
  18. gvandale

    gvandale IncGamers Member

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    Excuse me for drooling, but can we change your name to

    Hakai_I_FUXING_ROCK!

    I don't mean to be offensive.

    g
     
  19. Hakai_no_Tenshi

    Hakai_no_Tenshi IncGamers Member

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    One other issue you need to take into account is that a lot of data on d2data.net is plain WRONG. In fact, most drop calculators out there are also wrong too because they do not take the area override into account. If you check out the Single Player Forum, there is a sticky for a Single Player muling program called ATMA that I wrote. The latest version (5.04) includes a DropCalc that supports 1.07 - 1.10 and it takes into account all the intricacies of 1.10 that most calculators screwed up. Good luck.

    --T
     
  20. Cpkiller

    Cpkiller IncGamers Member

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    wow thanks guys for the ideas i was doing all kinds of runs for runes fogetting all about the cows and i did two runs on my break here at work, lol had to get the stony field waypoint, and got a sheal rune in just two runs. I know what i'll be doing tonight. Thanks again :clap:
     

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