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Meteorb vs Blizzballer vs FO/CL Sorc builds

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by MageChick, Sep 18, 2006.

  1. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Meteorb vs Blizzballer vs FO/CL Sorc builds

    OK, I wandered over to the Single Player Forum and read around a bit. There sure are a lot of Blizzard fans over there (the spell, not necessarily the company.) I figure maybe its worth a 2nd look at some blizzard builds and how they compare to the standard meteorb.

    I think Meteorb, Blizzballer and are probably the most popular and common dual tree PvM, MF builds, right? I'm not gonna compare straight blizzard or any lightning only build as that's not really an apples to apples comparison.

    Just to be clear in case someone from the SPF forum ever comes over hear to read this - I'm going to look at 1.11b Ladder builds.

    My goal is to compare dual tree builds keeping them as similar as possible. I won't be using ES for any of them, and I'll be building for max vit (not max block). I'm going to start out equipping them all pretty much the same - Full Tal + Perfect Spirit + Magefists + 2x SOJ's. I may have to drop the SOJ's for some more FCR Rings to hit the next FCR breakpoint on the CL/FO build. I'll see how it looks when I get there. I'll probably also limit my CM to slvl 17, although I know a lot of cold fans go a bit higher. I'm not going to get into weapon switch or Mercenary setups as those are pretty similar and kinda irrelevant for this comparison.

    In the end I hope to see some sort of damage per second breakout. I'm gonna assume for the purposes of this thread that higher damage per second will equate to better MFing as all the builds have similar MF%.

    I should also say that this is kinda an ambitious project that may take me a while to finish. I don't expect to do this all in 1 post - sorry.

    Gear

    Helm: Tal Rasha's (socketed P Topaz)
    Weapon: Tal Rasha's Orb (2/2/2, socketed Ist)
    Shield: Spirit Monarch (35% Fast Cast)
    Armor: Tal Rasha's (socketed P Topaz)
    Belt: Tal Rasha's
    Gloves: Magefists (up'd 2x)
    Boots: War Trav's *this doesn't much matter just using something for comparison sake
    Amulet: Tal Rasha's
    Rings: 2x SOJ's
    Charms in Inventory:
    Anni
    Sorc Torch
    Gheeds
    (Remember to add charms to hit the 86% FHR breakpoint, but again this is kinda irrelevant for this comparison)

    *** do’h now I can’t get arreat summit to come open. I’ll have to leave off here for tonight. Next step is to figure out all the + skill numbers so I know how many points to put into CM. Then I can write out the skill setups for each char. After that I’ll plug the numbers into a skill calculator and start looking at damage. Should be interesting.
     
  2. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    Looks like another ambitious project. I have my own opinion on which is the best, but I'll keep my views to myself...:lipsrsealed:

    Looking at your gear, I calculate +14 to all skills, with another +1 to fire skills, and +2 each to the masteries. Which means you'll only need 1 hard point in CM to get it to slvl 17 after + skills.

    You'll also have to consider how effective each build is in mass killing, and the number of immunes to each build's primary tree, as well as the amount of resistances monsters have against a chosen elemental skill.

    It will also make your task easier if you limit your test areas to popular areas, such as the Pits or WSK, and Andariel, Mephisto or Baal.

    Interestingly enough, Blizzballs were rarely mentioned about half a year ago... it was always Meteorbs. I don't know if my endless rantings on Blizzballs has anything to do with it, but in the past few months, Blizzballs have received a lot more and better publicity.

    Edit: Hmm, also interestingly enough, full Tal's setup seems to have become more popular as well. You might have something to do with that...
     
  3. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Hey opinions are always welcome - just be prepared to defend them with some numbers. :azn:

    I was thinking I'd show damage at 0% enemy resistance and again at 50%. This could be key, but I want to keep it somewhat simplified. I thought I knew the answer to this question already myself, :grin: but after seeing your blizzard numbers in the SPF I had to question it.:shocked: We'll see shortly...I hope!

    By the way - do blizzballers even cast Ice Bolt or Glacial Spike, or is it just Blizzard and Fireball? I better figure that one out before I try to draw conclusions.

    Oops the first line in my second paragraph should be:

    I think Meteorb, Blizzballer and CL/FO are probably... Don't want to forget a build.
     
  4. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    In light of my recent experiment, I'd add in there my FO/FB setup. With that, it is especially imperative to cast GS because you need to hold monsters in place to properly aim FO. I'd imagine if you used Meteor much that you'd need to do the same. Blizzard, while slightly better at holding a larger area of damage, would also benefit from GS. When running Baal /w my Orber, I my sequence is often Orb/GS/GS/orb/gs/gs/etc. Works well.

    Edit: shouldn't you also include a CtA/lidless switch in there?

    crg
     
  5. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    As you saw in my other thread, most of the non-CI monsters either have 0% cold resistance or 50% cold resistance. Relatively few fall between the two. I haven't done a similar analysis of fire and lightning resistance ranges, but I reckon there could be a trend. We'll have to wait for the AS to get back online. If there is a trend, then 0% and 50% would be good numbers to work with, especially for Tal's -15% to enemy fire and lightning resistance. Much easier to work with 50-15 than 33-15.....

    My two part PM to you will have more details and examples of what different CM slvls can do to monsters in terms of damage they receive.

    Heh, now this I can comment on!

    At 9 fpc, a Blizzball is able to cast 4 spammable spells in continuous succession while waiting for the Blizzard timer-delay to run its course. For example, name-lock a monster, cast 1 Blizzard, then immediately switch to IBlast, GSpike or FBall and spam 4 of them, after which the next Blizzard will just be ready to be cast again. So that is a sequence of 1:4.

    At 9 fpc, a Blizzball is able to cast 2 spammable spells in continuous succession while waiting for the Meteor timer-delay to run its course. For example, name-lock a monster, cast 1 Meteor, then immediately switch to FBall and spam 2 of them, after which the next Meteor will just be ready to be cast again. So that is a sequence of 1:2.

    I've also tested at 8 fpc, and the same rules hold true. You may want to double-check just to re-confirm. You may be able to squeeze 1 extra spammable spell in, but I doubt it.

    Good sorc players will tend to ensure that they are constantly casting spells to maximise their damage output. A Meteorb who uses Meteor will want to spam FBalls during Meteor's short timer-delay.

    Likewise, a Blizzball will be spamming IBlast or GSpike (sometimes FBall) during Blizzard's timer-delay, and also FBalls during Meteor's timer-delay when facing CIs.

    It's great when people display good skills when playing sorcs. :smiley:
     
  6. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Still can't get the arreat summit up, but I did find the stats I need.

    For the equipment setup above (all perfect gear) we're looking at the following stats:

    +5 all skills
    +9 sorc skills
    +1 fire skill
    +2 fire/cold/lightning mastery

    80% Hit recovery (add some 6% FHR from charms)
    105% Faster Cast Rate
    336% Magic Find (assuming all perfect gear + Gheeds)

    Resistances in Hell: (assuming perfect anni and torch):
    Fire: 75
    Cold: 110
    Light: 143
    Poison: 70

    Bonus to stats: (assuming perfect anni and torch)
    Str: +50
    Dex: +60
    Vit: +72
    Eng: +50
    Life: +317 + 144 = +451
    Mana: +331 + 100 = +431

    Other key mods:
    -15% To Enemy Fire Resistance
    -15% To Enemy Lightning Resistance
    +15% To Cold Skills Damage
    37% Damage Taken Goes To Mana
    Regenerate Mana 25%
    25% Faster Run/Walk
    Increase Maximum Mana 50%
    *of couse there's lots of other minor mods, these are just the most important ones

    The main thing I needed to know here was the +skills for calculating Masteries. We end up with +16 to cold and lightning mastery, +17 to fire mastery.

    Skills
    Assuming all char's at level 90 (101 skill points)

    Meteorb
    Cold Skills
    Ice Bolt (1) point. Prerequisite
    Ice Blast (1) point. Prerequisite
    Glacial Spike (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frost Nova (1) point. Prerequisite
    Blizzard (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frozen Orb (20) points. Secondary Timered Spell
    Cold Mastery (1) point.

    Fire Skills
    Fire Bolt – (17) points. Prerequisite, Synergy - keep adding here after lvl 90
    Warmth (1) point. Increases the rate at which mana is regenerated.
    Inferno – (1) point. Perquisite
    Blaze – (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Wall – (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Ball – (20) points. Main fast cast spell, Synergy for Meteor.
    Meteor – (20) points. Secondary Timered spell, Synergies for Fireball
    Fire Mastery – (11) points. - keep adding here after lvl 90

    Lightening Skills
    Telekinesis (1) point. Prerequisite for Teleport.
    Static (1) point
    Teleport (1) point

    Blizzballer
    Cold Skills
    Ice Bolt (9+) points. Prerequisite, Synergy - keep adding here after lvl 90
    Ice Blast (20) points. Prerequisite, Synergy, Secondary Fast Cast Spell
    Glacial Spike (1) point. Prerequisite, Synergy
    Frost Nova (1) point. Prerequisite
    Blizzard (20) points. Main Timered Spell
    Cold Mastery (1) point.

    Fire Skills
    Fire Bolt – (1) point. Prerequisite
    Warmth (1) point. Increases the rate at which mana is regenerated.
    Inferno – (1) point. Perquisite
    Blaze – (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Wall – (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Ball – (20) points. Main fast cast spell, Synergy for Meteor.
    Meteor – (20) points. Secondary Timered spell, Synergies for Fireball
    Fire Mastery – (1) point.

    Lightening Skills
    Telekinesis (1) point. Prerequisite for Teleport.
    Static (1) point
    Teleport (1) point

    CL/FO
    Cold Skills
    Ice Bolt (1) point. Prerequisite
    Ice Blast (1) point. Prerequisite
    Glacial Spike (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frost Nova (1) point. Prerequisite
    Blizzard (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frozen Orb (20) points. Secondary Timered Spell
    Cold Mastery (1) point.

    Fire Skills
    Warmth (1) point. Increases the rate at which mana is regenerated.

    Lightening Skills
    Charged Bold (9+) points. Prerequisite, Synergy, - keep adding here after lvl 90
    Telekinesis (1) point. Prerequisite for Teleport.
    Static (1) point. Prerequisite
    Nova (1) point. Prerequisite, Synergy
    Lightning (20) points. Main Spell, Synergy
    Chain Lightning (20) points. Maon Spell, Synergy
    Teleport (1) point.
    Thunderstorm (1) point.
    Lightning Mastery (20) points

    Damage
    OK, these are the raw numbers as given by Chippydips skill calculator. It does not allow me to factor in the +15% to cold damage from the tal orb. I should be able to simply multiply these numbers by 1.15 to get the correct total, right? (see the * row below for the added 15%) The negative enemy fire and light resistance from the orb and the CM -enemy resistance will be calculated when we look at how this is applied to monsters.

    Meteorb
    Frozen Orb: 476-498 / 487
    *Frozen Orb: 547 - 573 / 560
    Fireball: 9058-9886 / 9472
    Meteor: 19037-19837 / 19437

    Blizzballer
    Ice Blast: 2234-2302 / 2268
    *Ice Blast: 2569-2647 / 2608
    Blizzard: 3450-3607 / 3528.5
    *Blizzard: 3968-4148 / 4058
    Fireball: 4507-4920 / 4713.5
    Meteor: 10688-11138 / 10913

    CL/FO
    Frozen Orb: 476-498 / 487
    *Frozen Orb: 547 - 573 / 560
    Lightning: 19-13488 / 6753.5
    Chain Lightning: 12-6157 / 3084.5

    Code:
    	        Min     Max     Avg   0% Res  [B]25% Res  [/B]50% Res  75% Res
    [B]Meteorb[/B]
    Frozen Orb:	547	573	560	1120	[B]980[/B]	840	700
    Frozen Orb 5x:	2735	2865	2800	5600	[B]4900[/B]	4200	3500
    Fireball: 	9058	9886	9472	10893	[B]8525[/B]	6157	3789
    Meteor: 	19037	19837	19437	22353	[B]17493[/B]	12634	7775
    							
    [B]Blizzballer[/B]							
    Ice Blast: 	2569	2647	2608	5216	[B]4564[/B]	3912	3260
    Blizzard: 	3968	4148	4058	8116	[B]7102[/B]	6087	5073
    Fireball: 	4507	4920	4714	5421	[B]4242[/B]	3064	1885
    Meteor: 	10688	11138	10913	12550	[B]9822[/B]	7093	4365
    							
    [B]CL/FO[/B]							
    Frozen Orb: 	547	573	560	1120	[B]980[/B]	840	700
    Frozen Orb 5x: 	2735	2865	2800	5600	[B]4900[/B]	4200	3500
    Lightning: 	19	13488	6754	7767	[B]6078[/B]	4390	2701
    Chain Light: 	12	6157	3085	3547	[B]2776[/B]	2005	1234
    
    
    Stolen from Frostburn:
    Now when reading this chart, I think we should be focused around the 25% enemy resistance numbers. Most of the monsters you'll encounter will range from 0%-50%. 25% is a decent average I think. Also remember that the Blizzard and FO damage is per shard. This gets kinda subjective, but if you aim it right you can easily hit your opponant with more than 5 FO shards, probably over 10 if you can get it to explode directly on the enemy. For Blizzard you'll be hitting with multiple shards too, but most enemies probably won't survive more than a few.

    Conclusions:
    When I started off, I thought that I'd have to somewhat hinder the CL/FO build by dropping the 2x SOJ's for some FCR's. I thought that the L/CL would look overpowering and that wouldn't be accurate as it's being cast at a significantly slower rate. But in the end I don't think that the CL/FO damage holds up to either other build. It's actually kinda weak. Now in all honesty L/CL will be hitting multiple monsters with each cast. CL is well known for killing things not even on the screen yet. Maybe that makes up for it?

    I think this accurately shows the meteorb numbers that I've come to love. If you haven't spammed 10K fireballs at 105% FCR, you gotta try it. I can't imagine how it feels to spam some of the 20k PvP Fireball builds at 200% FCR. I don't think I could ever go back. The Meteorb does have about twice the fireball damage as the Blizzballer. But that Blizzard damage is kinda sexy too and its hitting lots more monsters per cast. For you Blizzballers out there - did you know that your iceblast damage is probably higher than your fireball damage? I didn't.

    I don't know If I can really declare a winner here. Pro's and con's of each. I suppose the next step is to turn this into a damage per second chart. That may take a little more work. The first thing I'd have to know (and I have no idea right now) is how many blizzard shards and frozen orb shards actually hit a given enemy; say Baal? For this example I'd like to assume that your merc is holding baal stationary and every cast hits him (not totally unlikely is it?) For the Meteorb we can just cast Meteor, 3x Fireballs, Meteor again and repeat. For the Blizzballer, cast Blizzard, then 5x Ice Blasts, then blizzard again and repeat. My thought is that Meteorb will win this competition, but it really depends on how the blizzard shards go.

    Lets try to walk through a 5 second interval and see what happens. That's 125 frames total.
    Meteorb:
    By frame: 0 Meteor; 8 Fireball, 16 Fireball, 24 Fireball, 32 Meteor, 40 Fireball, 48 Fireball, 56 Fireball, 64 Meteor, 72 Fireball, 80 Fireball, ** Fireball, 96 Meteor, 104 Fireball, 112 Fireball, 120 Fireball. That's 4x Meteor's and 12 Fireballs = 124418 damage and 1555 pyre damage per second for a total of 132190
    Blizzballer:
    By frame: 0 Blizzard, 8 Ice Blast, 16 Ice Blast, 24 Ice Blast, 32 Ice Blast, 40Ice Blast, 48 Blizzard, 56 Ice Blast, 64 Ice Blast, 72 Ice Blast, 80 Ice Blast, ** Ice Blast, 96 Blizzard, 104 Ice Blast, 112 Ice Blast, 120 Ice Blast. That's 3x Blizzard and 13 Ice Blasts. On those 3x Blizzards how many shards will hit Baal each time? I'm try it with both 4 and 5 to see what happens. Someone please sanity check this assumption. (Its 2:00AM and I have no idea anyway.) If we assume 12 shards and 13 Ice Blasts that's 123900 damage. If we assume 15 shards and 13 Ice Blasts that's 142161 damage.

    The final answer is that if 5 or more shards from each blizzard hit Baal, then Blizzballer is more efficient, if its 4 or fewer shards then the winner is Meteorb. I think its may be too close to call, but I don’t think you get an average of 5 hits per Blizzard. My thought is Meteorb.

    I have one other thought, but I don't have the energy to calculate it out. Secondary attack damage? Even at 50% resistance it looks like Blizzballer has the better back up attack (3K Fireball > 4K FO) So could I take some of Blizzballers fire attack out to boost her cold attack, sure. That may kinda even out the builds by giving the Blizzballer a stronger Primary attack and loosing a bit off the secondary attack.

    I suppose even with all the numbers its all still really subjective. Either one will work very well. Both are pretty cheap to build too. So sorry all but to the best of my ability THE CONCLUSION IS: NO WINNER!
     
  7. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    Right. I checked a few of your numbers, and they all seem to be accurate.

    You do realise that this is an infringement of copyright laws, don't you? My solicitor will be speaking to you shortly...:strong:

    I agree.

    Not imo. CL won't be hitting monsters off-screen all that often. The FO/L/CL build is still a good build; but it just isn't as robust as the other two in 8 player games.

    I did. :grin:

    For FO, it is up to 16 shards if the FO explodes right inside of him. It is a little more difficult to predict with Blizzard. It can be anywhere from 3 shards to 5-6 shards at any one point in time depending on exactly where Baal is positioned in relation to the Blizzard storm.

    Exactly. Also, the Blizzball is disadvantaged here with a CM of only -100%. If she had a CM of -150%, her raw Blizzard damage will improve from 1.5x to 2x. Likewise, IBlast will pump out more damage if CM is higher than -100%.

    I see it differently. Against Baal, the Blizzball will be using cold attacks while the Meteorb will be using fire attacks. Both builds tend to have a weaker secondary tree in order to have a stronger primary tree. I wouldn't be using back-up skills against Baal. I would be using the primary spammable skill and primary delay skill in conjunction against Baal.

    Actually, there is a winner, but I'm biased... :tongue:
     
  8. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    It all started out with MyLady-Knights Blizzball guide last ladder. Don't know who else played this build before, but with this guide it started to become more popular, so i gave it a try too and was impressed, still am. Then endless ranting and lamenting from people in favor of the build (yes i like to rant and lament as well) put this build into a different view up with Meteorb on the shelf of stock builds.

    Regarding the comparison:
    I agree totally with all the damage charts and the item/skill lineup. All the information is correct.

    Damage: +xx% cold/fire/lightning damage is always calculated as masteries. So yes, simply add up to masteries.

    FCR: FCR is everything, especially with CL/L. Reaching the 117% breakpoint makes at least in my experience alot of difference. It can be pretty much compared to the ecstatic feeling of a 105% or 200% Fireball. Maybe just personal opinion.

    I would not say, that CL/FO lacks behind in damage. The numbers seem lower and more devided, still you will do alot of damage. Thoughi guess that a few extra light skillers won't hurt, but those are out of the comparison here.

    Having played all three builds i would say that Meteorb and Blizzballer are pretty equal. Both are more biased on one tree and the other suffers a bit, but is something they have in common.

    CL/FO lacks behind a bit, but is still viable. There is no real winner that outplays the others with damage or killing speed in huge numbers.

    I would still ike to see a damage/sec table. Especially also taking into account FCR! 65%, 105% and 200% bps :D Since that will speed your killing immensely. NOtice this everytime when i go from 65 to 105. I never want to go back...

    P.S.: 200% FCR Testing. Does anyone of you have a Wizard Spike and Arachnid Mesh on EU L? I would just like to borrow and see what this feels like. With those 2 items my current build could reach 205% FCR, but some less +skills, but the speed would be worth seeing.
     
  9. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    I would still say calculations should be done for a maxed out Orb/FB or Met setup. From my recent testing, Orb is better at killing Baal, but bliz is better at dealing with baal's minions. Also, remember I'm looking at this from a specifically SP clvl 99 run mindset. If I can't run baal fast, it's just another way to get a hell hellforge drop.

    crg
     
  10. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Not sure I'm following you. You want me to include a single treee build? Or did you mean a meteorb type build with a fully synergized FO - or a fully synergized Meteor. Please clarify.

    On US East, sure - sorry no EU. OT - I'm thinking I may actaully want to switch realms next ladder thoughts? (actually let me ask this in the OT thread - probably more discussion there)

    Yeah I could have pumped CM a bit more, but then where do I take the points from? Probably IB or Meteor. As it stands the Blizzballer has 20 more points invested into secondary attack then either of the FO builds. Time for another comparison I think.

    I didn't mean to suggest that we should try secondary attacks against baal, I was just pointing out that the way I set them up I think Blizzballers secondary attack is stronger than the Meteorb or CL/FO builds secondary attack. Probably because I spent 20 points more in her secondary attack - hmm, not a very even comparision, but If I pull 20 points out of the Blizzballers secondary tree then the fire damage will be completely unworkable I think. Suggestions?

    I have to agree with everyone that this comparison is still pretty subjective. I tried my hardest to set up the builds with similar gear and I distributed their skill points to what I thought would be the "best" mix for all around game play, but of course that skill distribution is arguable. Then I looked at how a generic build handles baal. If I wanted to do a baal damage comparison I probably should have set them up as baal runners right? Valid point and not real clear results. Time for some further testing and theory crafting - hopefully nothing that will keep me up past 2AM again (got in trouble with the wifey for not coming to bed sooner :cry: :embarassed: :undecided: )
     
  11. Crazy Runner Guy

    Crazy Runner Guy IncGamers Member

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    I was thinking a la my recent Orber project. 20 FO/IB, 20 FBolt/Ball/1+ mastery (CM to taste).

    crg
     
  12. Noite Escura

    Noite Escura IncGamers Member

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    It would be interesting to compare how these builds would work in an untwinked setup. Some spells like CL/L combo benefit more from + skills. Also I think that a +5 setup would gretly cripple the Blizzballer due to insufficient Codl Mastery? I still think Meteorb may be better such conditions. What do you think?
     
  13. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Max Damage builds

    Let’s try another test. I'm thinking I’ll see how the numbers look with some tweaking for damage - i.e. Let’s max everything out and see what happens. We’ll level everyone up to level 99 (9 more skill points into main spell synergies) and we’ll also include 6 skillers (Fire for Meteorb, Cold for Blizzballer, Lightning for CL/FO)*. We’ll also take the IST’s and P Topazes out of our Tal Set and add in 3x 5/5 Matching Facets.

    *These are still MFing builds so that means I’ll keep a Gheeds and an empty cube in inventory (along with the Torch and Anni). After cube, and gheeds there’s only room for 6 skillers, but you still have room for at least a scroll (or tome) of TP’s and you can stick some ID scrolls in the cube I suppose. If you still want as much MF as possible, you can squeeze in at least 6x 7% MF SC’s (8x if you keep your TP scroll/tome in the cube as well). We lost 78% MF from the loss of IST’s and P Topazes, so we should try to make it up somewhere.

    So that’s
    +5 all skills
    +9 sorc skills
    +1 fire skill
    +2 fire, cold and lightning mastery
    +6 to specific fire, cold or light tree (build specific)
    I’m also getting
    +15% damage from 3x Facets
    -15% enemy resistance from the 3x Facets
    +15% cold skill damage from Tal Orb
    -15% enemy resistance from Tal Orb
    I’ll add the +% damage together with mastery - groan, more math
    All the -enemy resistance will be calculated when we look at monster damage.

    Skills Assuming all char's at level 99 (110 skill points)

    Meteorb
    Cold Skills (26 total)
    Ice Bolt (1) point. Prerequisite
    Ice Blast (1) point. Prerequisite
    Glacial Spike (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frost Nova (1) point. Prerequisite
    Blizzard (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frozen Orb (20) points. Secondary Timered Spell
    Cold Mastery (1) point.

    Fire Skills (81 total)
    Fire Bolt (20) points. Prerequisite, Synergy
    Warmth (1) point. Increases the rate at which mana is regenerated.
    Inferno (1) point. Perquisite
    Blaze (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Wall (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Ball (20) points. Main fast cast spell, Synergy for Meteor.
    Meteor (20) points. Secondary Timered spell, Synergies for Fireball
    Fire Mastery (17) points.

    Lightening Skills (3 total)
    Telekinesis (1) point. Prerequisite for Teleport.
    Static (1) point
    Teleport (1) point

    Blizzballer
    Cold Skills (61 total)
    Ice Bolt (18) points. Prerequisite, Synergy
    Ice Blast (20) points. Prerequisite, Synergy, Secondary Fast Cast Spell
    Glacial Spike (1) point. Prerequisite, Synergy
    Frost Nova (1) point. Prerequisite
    Blizzard (20) points. Main Timered Spell
    Cold Mastery (1) point.

    Fire Skills (46 total)
    Fire Bolt (1) point. Prerequisite
    Warmth (1) point. Increases the rate at which mana is regenerated.
    Inferno (1) point. Perquisite
    Blaze (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Wall (1) point. Perquisite
    Fire Ball (20) points. Main fast cast spell, Synergy for Meteor.
    Meteor (20) points. Secondary Timered spell, Synergies for Fireball
    Fire Mastery (1) point.

    Lightening Skills (3 total)
    Telekinesis (1) point. Prerequisite for Teleport.
    Static (1) point
    Teleport (1) point

    CL/FO
    Cold Skills (26 total)
    Ice Bolt (1) point. Prerequisite
    Ice Blast (1) point. Prerequisite
    Glacial Spike (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frost Nova (1) point. Prerequisite
    Blizzard (1) point. Prerequisite
    Frozen Orb (20) points. Secondary Timered Spell
    Cold Mastery (1) point.

    Fire Skills (1 total)
    Warmth (1) point. Increases the rate at which mana is regenerated.

    Lightening Skills (83 total)
    Charged Bolt (18) points. Prerequisite, Synergy
    Telekinesis (1) point. Prerequisite for Teleport.
    Static (1) point. Prerequisite
    Nova (1) point. Prerequisite, Synergy
    Lightning (20) points. Main Spell, Synergy
    Chain Lightning (20) points. Main Spell, Synergy
    Teleport (1) point.
    Thunderstorm (1) point.
    Lightning Mastery (20) points

    Damage:
    This will get a lot more complicated than before because I have to basically add in 15% to the respective masteries (to account for the facets). The calculator I’ve been using (Chippydips) doesn’t allow for this, so I’ll have to do some number crunching manually. Anyone know of a better calculator? I used to have one that allowed for +% damage gear, but now I can’t find it.
    Because I’m math long hand I better write it all out.
    [base skill damage] * [synergy mod] * [mastery mod + (+% skill damage)] = [total damage]
    The problem is that every time I do this long hand I get slightly different numbers than the skill calculators do. The difference is pretty small, but I’m assuming the calculators have it exact, and my calculations are off a bit. Here’s an example of calculating minimum damage on a level 41Fireball with 40 synergy points and 19 mastery points (not counting the facets yet)

    573 * (1+ 40*14%) * (1+303%) = 15240.65

    The calculators say 15253 damage. That’s a difference of 17 points! or about 0.1% I suppose I can just ignore this small difference, but its still annoying.

    Now when we add in the facets the formula looks like this:
    573 * (1+ 40*14%) * (1+303% + 15%) = 15807.92

    Let me show you one more just because I’ve been having a problem with it. Here’s an example of calculating maximum damage on a level 40 Lightning with 38 synergy points and 20 mastery points (not counting the facets yet)

    912 * (1+ 38*8%) * (1+542%) = 23654

    The calculators say 24122 damage. Here the difference is 468 points! That’s almost 2% of total damage. Still kinda small, but that pretty much negates the extra 15% damage from facets.

    Now when we add in the facets the formula looks like this:
    912 * (1+ 38*8%) * (1+542% + 15%) = 24207

    Don’t worry I won’t walk you through the math on each spell, but I did want to show you that I know what I’m doing (at least I think I do).

    Code:
    	        Min	Max	Avg	0%Res	25%Res	50%Res	75%Res
    Meteorb							
    Frozen Orb 	476	498	487	974	852	731	609
    Frozen Orb 5x	2380	2490	2435	4870	4261	3653	3044
    Fireball	15808	17132	16470	21411	17294	13176	9059
    Meteor	        32504	33758	33131	43070	34787	26505	18222
    							
    Blizzballer							
    Ice Blast	4637	4761	4699	9398	9398	9163	7988
    Blizzard	6787	7053	6920	13840	13840	13494	11764
    Fireball	4507	4920	4714	5421	4242	3064	1885
    Meteor	        10688	11138	10913	12550	9822	7093	4365
    							
    CL/FO							
    Frozen Orb	476	498	487	974	852	731	609
    Frozen Orb 5x	2380	2490	2435	4870	4261	3653	3044
    Lightning	27	24207	12117	15752	12723	9693	6664
    Chain Light	17	9619	4818	6263	5059	3854	2650
    
    Man, now this is some sexy damage. Let’s see if I can do the Baal damage thing like before. (Actually lets do it for a 0% and a 50% resistant monster). Fortunately the casting ratio’s are the same. It’s just a matter of multiplying by a different number.

    Meteorb
    0% Fire Immune monster: That's 4x Meteor's and 12 Fireballs = 429212 damage and 3007 pyre damage per second for a total of 444247
    Damage per second: 88849
    50% Fire Immune monster: That's 4x Meteor's and 12 Fireballs = 264131 damage and 1850 pyre damage per second for a total of 273383
    Damage per second = 55139


    Blizzballer
    0% Fire Immune monster: That's 3x Blizzard and 13 Ice Blasts. On those 3x Blizzards I’ll assume 4 shards each hit for a total of 12 shards and 13 Ice Blasts for a total of 288248
    Damage per second: 57650
    50% Fire Immune monster: That's 3x Blizzard and 13 Ice Blasts. On those 3x Blizzards I’ll assume 4 shards each hit for a total of 12 shards and 13 Ice Blasts for a total of 281042
    Damage per second: 56208

    CL/FO
    (I didn’t do this last time, but at 13 frames per cast, you’ll get a total of 10 spells off in 5 seconds. If we could get to the 117% breakpoint we would loose +2 skills, but we would take only 12 frames per cast. That would get us a total of 11 spells cast in 5 seconds. In this example we actually loose damage. * 125% FCR Lightning)
    0% Lightning Immune: That’s 10 Lightning for a total of 157518 (*156070)
    Damage per second: 31504 (*31214)
    50% Lightning Immune: That’s 10 Lightning for a total of 96934 (*96043)
    Damage per second: 19387 (*19209)

    The conclusion here is that for anything less than 45% resistant to your main attack, Meteorb will kill it faster. For monsters at 50% and higher, Blizzballer will be faster. So in terms of a Chaos or Baal run where there is a mix of monsters? I don’t know, but it’s probably real close. At the lower resistances Meteorb will do much better, but when you have to switch to your backup spell, Blizzballer will probably come out ahead. (If you look at say a 25% resistant random monster you’ll see that meteorb’s FO (assuming 5x shards hit) will do just over 4k damage. Blizzballers Fireball will do the same damage, but its much quicker to cast. Perhaps a detailed analysis of what monsters you’ll encounter on each type of run will give meaningful results, but I don’t think so. All we can really tell by maximizing our builds for damage is that they do significantly more damage, but its still a toss up for a clear winner. Regardless the CL/FO build trails pretty far behind.
     
  14. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    I basically think you're right. I don't see FO/CL getting any better at lower skill levels. Doing a lower skill setup would probably hurt blizzballer more than meteorb for just the reason you said. You'd have to take points out of blizzards synegies to spend them on boosting your CM in addition to the lower base spell damage. Meteorb will loose about an equal abount of base spell damage, but you don't have to give up any synergy points - you only loose some % off your mastery. It will probably be pretty close again though. Sorry I just don't think I have the energy to try another detailed comparison. But anyone else is welcome to try their hand at it. It's really just a skill calculator and a spreadsheet.
     
  15. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, but except for the plus to skill this won't really matter much. I didn't bother to calculate the total life or mana for any of the builds - but it should be the same for all builds so nothing to compare really.
     
  16. xix sephra

    xix sephra IncGamers Member

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    my mf'er doesnt have the room to be carrying + skills or to waste my soj's on him so his mana or damage is a little higher.. hes carrying loot that i dont want to be muleing every two seconds.

    ohh and if you got the cash to put cta on switch.. you dont need to mf... and these builds your talking about.. all mf chars....if your looking for pvp.. straight blizzard straight fireball straight lightning....
     
  17. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Um, yeah. Did you read the beginning of the 2nd paragraph? Did you notice that I did 2 comparisons? The first didn't include any skillers or something like that.

     
  18. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    This thread is about damage comparison with identical gear. And its about PvM. So please read the whole thing and then respond coherently. Thank you.
     
  19. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Someone pointed out my math error on post #13.

    yep, double checked the skill calculator. I must have had 39 synergy points (probably put 1 in nova on accident).

    I knew I had an error somewhere, just couldn't find it. As such the lightning and chain lightning damage is about 1% lower than what I listed. I'm sure you all really cared. :rolleyes: But these are things that keep me up at night (oh, that and a crying 6 week old :grin: )

    I had to revisit this thread to grab some of the formulas for my next comparison. I'd hate to have someone quote a bad number years from now.
     

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