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Max Block for Blizz?

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by buttaz, Jun 27, 2005.

  1. buttaz

    buttaz IncGamers Member

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    Max Block for Blizz?

    Which way shood i go, Vitality, or Max block, granted this is my first bizz sorc, and although i have some access to gear, stuff like Stormshield would be hard for me to get. Any help is appreciated, i personally think vitality, any sugeestions are welcome
     
  2. IIDX

    IIDX IncGamers Member

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    if stormshield isn't available think of other alternatives like Whinstans Guard (Orphans Set) its resonably cheap. if you wanna block at a low str required go with this shield until you can get an stormshield (ss)

    Whinstans Guard
    129-154 Defense
    64 Durability
    53 Str Req
    67 Blocking
    Clvl req 29
    +175% Enhanced Defense
    +40% faster chance to block
    +55 Chance to Block
    Half Freeze Duration
    +5 Light Radius
    *best for max block

    Viscerataunt
    83-124 Defense
    68 Durability
    38 Str req
    50% blocking
    Clvl req 28
    +1 To Sorceress Skills
    30% Faster Blocking
    +30 Chance to Block
    +100-150% Enhanced Defense
    Attacker Takes 10 Lightning Damage

    Moser's Blessed Circle
    133-179 Defense
    64 Durability
    53 Str required
    50% Blocking
    Socketed (2)
    Clvl req 31
    +25% Resistance To All
    +25 Chance to Block %
    +180-220% Enhanced Defense
    30% Faster Blocking
    *having 2 open sockets you could add Perfect diamond for more resist, or Eld runes for better bock

    Gerke's Sanctuary
    192-268 Defense
    172 Durability
    133 Str req
    74% Blocking
    Clvl req 44
    Physical Damage Taken Reduced by 11-16
    Magical Damage Taken Reduced by 14-18
    +15 Replenish Life (1.46 Life Per Second)
    +180-240% Enhanced Defense
    +100 Increased Durability
    +30 Chance to Block %
    +20-30% Resistance To All
    *lesser str req and much cheaper than ss
     
  3. buttaz

    buttaz IncGamers Member

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    So u think Max block is better huh? i gess ill try that
     
  4. FodderCannoned

    FodderCannoned IncGamers Member

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    I have made 2 blizz sorcs now, and just started my 3rd. I have done one vit, and one block, and i liked the vit one better. Expecially for baal runs.
    You have more life to take more gloam damage.
    You can also take more hits off of the OK's magic damage.
    Also the most overlooked part, when you have to fight the second enemy set, the skeleton mages spawn cold immune, so while your merc kills them you can take quite a bit of magic damage.

    The benefits of max block is that when melee characters close in on you that you can survive multiple hits from them, but when as a sorceress are you concerned about melee hits. You should have your merc inbetween you and them and only be concerned about ranged attack.
     
  5. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    max block is unneccessary for a blizz sorc. simply use glacial spike to keep the merc alive and the monsters inside the blizzard.
     
  6. buttaz

    buttaz IncGamers Member

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    So wut i need is just enough Dex for gear and pump Vitality, also, wut shood i do with Energy?
     
  7. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    Both options are bad!

    Well, in a sense, ofc, and you have to pick up one.

    Anyway, blocking or vita is really your call here. Pros and cons exist for either of them. My only pure blizz sorc in SCL went for blocking - that was because I wanted to use a spirit shld, so I also wanted to use SS occasionally. If I make another one, I'll go for all vita and keep my base dex at 25 forever, and use a staff like Ondal's to help me level up faster (I have a +4 all skills one:).

    either way, if you play very well, you won't die. otherwise, at least when bad luck strikes a toll, you'll have to die regardless.


    PS -

    A full blocking with SS sorc can have 1.2K+ hit points (or close to 2.0K with CtA). It's more than enough to do pretty much everything in the game (suicide included, ofc!).

    Usually, if you want your sorc to be able to rush or tank big bosses or tele into a pack of cows and remain there for a while, all vita is a step closer to death.
     
  8. sasja

    sasja IncGamers Member

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    It all depends on playstyle - so basically, you have to try both and see what you like best. But as pointers, ask youself - do you play solo or small groups sometimes? If yes, that's a point for block. Also, most importantly, do you hang back in a party, and let the tanks do their job, or do you like to be in the front sometimes? Being up front requires block. Lastly, what are your end-game plans for her? If you don't have any atm, ignore this. If you want her to mf, think about the bosses you'll run: Do you need block for them? Anyway, good luck :)
     
  9. [iNsoMniaC]

    [iNsoMniaC] IncGamers Member

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    How about 50/50 energy/vitality.. How would that work with insight..?


    edit: 300 posts, woohoo
     
  10. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    1.10 pvm has changed. in fact, you can build a non-block tanking sorc without any problem now.

    A handy proof (or say, a test) is the base-dex sorc that I've been playing since last week. From level 27 to 39, she solo'ed everywhere in big/full games for the purpose of leveling up her act2 merc fast. She tanked all 5 act bosses, ancients, hephaesto, lister, extra fast death lords, doom knights, council members, black souls...., everything other than Nik (she didn't enter his temple). And in big cow games, she would tele right into the middle of any pack of cows and wait for her merc to make the killing - when her merc's (not her own) life bar turned yellow, she would kill the cows and tele to the next pack. She used a goethic shld for 38% resist all, and did have 8% or 15% blocking.


    High defense, high life, high FCR, high resists, plus a good merc will allow a non-block sorc to do anything that a block sorc used to be good at. This includes tanking big bosses. Based on my own exp, blocking is not needed at all for tanking all 5 act bosses on the HELL diff.


    Of course, blocking helps you tank, but a big life orb also helps you tank! And in the case of a dedicated ES-using sorc, a big mana orb is all you need to tank everything in a Hell game.



    All the above leads to one point: blocking or not is now purely a personal preference. Go with whichever option you like 1% better. If you can't decide, just toss a coin: if face is up, go with blocking; if tail, go with all vita. Very few decisions can made so easily.




    That said, if you build a sorc for rushing big HELL games (= has to tank everything you run into in HELL), blocking is still recommended. However, non-block rusher sorc is doable too.
     
  11. sasja

    sasja IncGamers Member

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    The way block works hasn't changed - but as monsters are faster and harder hitting now while our life bulb has stayed the same, block is even more important now.

    Probably her level was way over that of her foes - level has a very big role to play in whether you're hit or not. Otherwise, I have to say this is either bragging or crazy equipment.

    But you don't get a life bulb that's four times as large by putting your stat points in vita instead of in dex corresponding to the 75% hits you'll avoid with a shield. Sorcs only get a lousy 2 life per vita, so it's really not a great investment. For her dex points she gets exactly the same as other classes. A vita sorc is not as effective at tanking than a block sorc.
     
  12. kmk-soldier

    kmk-soldier IncGamers Member

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    ive only have a vita blizz sorc, and im quite happy with it
    it has 35% block but they hardly hit me cause I tele fast away

    if you are som1 with good reactions and can tele fast away I should go for vita

    mine got now 27xx life, so she can bear some dmg
     
  13. riplix

    riplix IncGamers Member

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    this has already been discussed to the max a LOT. please try the search function and you'll get hundreds of opinions about this.
     
  14. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    Blocking with a shield has changed in 1.10. To say the least, the blocking lock is no longer a big deal any more.



    A level 27 to 39 sorc - I have clearly said that in the very beginning.

    Her gear included a spirit sword, a portion of the angelic set, a tarnhelm (50% MF!), and an inventory filled up with str charms - she has only 30 str and 25 dex, without those charms she could not even use the spirit sword.

    In fact, What "crazy" uber gear can be expected on a level 27 to 39 sorc??? Her gear was fixed at level 27 until she reached NM at level 47.


    Non-block tanking sorc in NM
    ----------------------------

    Actually, I can tell you a bit more about her performance in NM:

    from level 47 to 51, she was played with an spearazon (plus a paladin until act3) from NM act1 to act4. again, she tanked almost everything: Andariel, Duriel, Mephisto, Izual, all the travincal council members, all the burning souls in act4.... The ama died a lot, the pally also died a few times, but my sorc did not die even once! And she either stayed on the very front line, or tele ahead of the party.

    The only time she was close to death was in Tal's tomb: a bad guy exploded, killed the ama and/or pally, and almost killed me!

    I adjusted her gear to have full resists in NM at level 47: occulus, lidless, peasant's crown, magefist, vipermagi, etc - they are "standard" sorc items. Again, she had lots of str charms.

    Her blocking with a lidless was close to none.


    If you cousider all this as "bragging", I cannot find a better reason than that you don't really know much on this subject. If there were a different reason, mind telling us why you said that???



    Play an all-vita, non-block sorc on LADDER at least once please! There is really no need to reach that speculative conclusion in so great a haste.



    Extra handy proof
    -----------------

    my most recent *dedicated rusher* sorcs on SCL were built to use SS and for 75% blocking, but in actual game play they do not need to use SS at all. Those two sorcs tank everything in the game from Norm up to Hell Anya Quest, no exception! Best of all, they have not died even once.

    One of the two sorcs uses full talarash's set. Nothing on her is more costly than tal's armor. She's a bit weaker, of course. But she solo'ed entire Hell (other than Hell ancients) some time ago before I traded for the full set for her. She uses a spirit shield almost all the time in her solo and rush games: 40-50% blocking.


    Since I switched from HCL to SCL a few months ago, I have built some 15 to 20 characters. Many of them use shields throughout their lives. However, I have one and only one Stormshield. Nobody uses it. Even my Javazon has no need for a SS.

    Of all my chars, only 2 hammerdins I built earlier maintained 75% blocking for all the time. All others have at most about 50% blocking.

    my 3rd hammerdin has only 40%+ blocking with HS on. Of the 3 hammerdins I have, he is the BEST! Of course, to make him stronger, I'll find a way to increase his blocking to 75% - but i wont do that unless I can do that at zero loss of his power.


    Most of my SCL chars tank stay on the front line most of the time - that's my play style in SC (I wouldn't do this so readily in HC). And best of all, many of them have not died even once (or at most once or twice because of lag or my mistakes).


    I strong suggest that you try out a vita, non-block, tanking sorc on SCL and actually play her through the game - at least once.


    lastly, Let me repeat this point:

    In 1.10 PvM with new ladder runewords, whether vita or blocking is now purely a personal preference. Different choice can make your char different. But neither of them will make your char more effective in PvM, provided that everything else is equal or equivalent.
     
  15. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    A few # displayed in the game for the sorc I've played since last week:

    Jedi_Padme

    level 57
    SC Ladder - East

    str = 30 (when naked)
    str = 60 (with gear, including lots of str charms)

    dex = 25 (when naked, cannot go lower!)
    dex = 27 (with gear)

    chance to block = 4% (only 4%!) with a lidless wall

    defense = 2.84K with her merc aura
    defense = 1.42K without her merc aura

    (her merc's defense = 2.77K with his own aura)


    chance to get hit by

    NM Act5 Demon Imp = 5%
    NM Act5 Burning dead archer (around Edritch)= 31%
    NM ACt5 enslaves (around Shenk) = 19%
    NM Act1 spearwomen = 20%
    NM Act1 Fallen = 13%


    Blocking is totally useless for this sorc, who still uses her level 47 poor man's gear, with a full inventory of str charms - just as I described previously.

    Although her level is still low, she can already tank most NM act5 monsters (not all of them, ofc). She can tele right into the middle of Edritch's or Shenk's monster pack, and make the killing while under attack from all sides - there is no risk for her to take, unless lagged. I just did that twice in 2 games again to obtain those numbers above.


    This is a good example for anyone who still believes in getting 75% blocking for a tanking sorc in 1.10 PvM. Compared to 1.09, blocking in 1.10 has changed. In particular, its importance in PvM has dropped.
     
  16. sasja

    sasja IncGamers Member

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    So why would that make block less attractive in 1.10?
    Because the sorc is the frailest character in d2. That's as it should be, since we have the most impressive offense. Telling people that a sorc is more durable than a paladin or an amazon or trying to convince them that they can survive teleporting into a herd of cows in an 8-player game at level 27 and be able to just lounge there for a while expecting not to get a scratch (and even with an all-vita sorc - in the one case where block has the best advantage over vita, i.e. all-melee physical damage monters) is not helpful. Please, do I really need to spell out why I consider this bragging?

    That being said, once you get into your power-attacks, e.g. Frozen Orb, going back and doing any place in Normal will be very easy as you're overpowered for it. Things will just die really fast, so no need for much tanking.

    I've played all-vita sorcs both on and off ladder. I just never liked them as much as the max block variety. Personal preference and playstyle, as I've mentioned before. Is it a disadvantage in your book to have the numbers to back up my experience?

    That's a pity - why not try it out? I'm sure that if you do have an aggressive playstyle you'll be sure to feel the difference on a max block sorc.

    Again, I have done this several times - but I find they die way too easily on the front line in larger games. Give me block any day.

    I tend to agree - though I must say that if you play defensively, an all-vita sorc will be more powerful, while if you play aggressively, a max block sorc will last longer.
     
  17. Ehein

    Ehein IncGamers Member

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    I think it all depends what you are using the sorc for, my tals sorc has max block with whitstans and I find it very beneficial when doing pindle runs due to the charge skill possessed by the monsters.

    However if you have a good merc and utilize glacial spike properly it is probably better to go with vita, unless you do pindle runs without a strong merc.
     
  18. Drunken_Tiger

    Drunken_Tiger IncGamers Member

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    God... you could always do the math... for a decent shield... a sorc would need at least 200 dexterity (estimation... i'm low balling it) for max block. However, if that 175 (25 base dex) were put into vitality, she would get a bonus of 350 life. Now say the sorceress were hit four times with a 100 damage per hit monster. Let's nullify defense (because its a controlled variable for both).

    Vitality Sorceress... let's give her 25% block (I know I'm giving her a lot of credit...)
    She takes 300 damage, but since she has the 350 life bonus, she gains a net of 50 life.

    Dexterity Sorceress loses 100 life.

    Well in this case the Vitality Sorceress wins. However, do all monsters really only deal 100 damage? In Hell? No... In Hell, the monsters will deal quite a bit more.. and therefore, in the end, the Dexterity Sorceress will prevail.

    example: 500 damage, 4 swings

    Vit: 1500 damage...350 life bonus...1150 loss of life
    Dex: 500 damage...0 life bonus...500 loss of life

    Sure you may consider teleporting around. So what, there's stun and crowds. If you seriously want to take the time to take one monster out at a time... go ahead with vitality. But if you value time, and like to play aggressive, why not teleport in the middle, then blizzard?

    I guess I am biased toward sasja a bit for her meteorb guide, which by the way is an excellent guide and all of you should check it out ^_^

    Hope this helps.
     
  19. riplix

    riplix IncGamers Member

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    first:
    +++USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION+++.

    second:
    +++USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION+++.

    third:
    well really everything has been discussed lengthly and this thread will not yield ANY new information. So please
    +++USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION+++.

    this has to be the most redundant information-thread in here.

    fyi: there are very few monsters exceeding 100 dmg in hell act5 (average is rather 50-60) and if you do the math you have to consider elemental dmg as well.

    thx ;)
     
  20. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    of course!!! What can be bragged about a low-level sorc???

    Also, of course I really wish to "brag" about your young sorc, but the problem is: how do I know how you played your sorc from level 27 to 39? I used my own sorc only as an example, because I know her so well and it was so handy.

    She did not die so easily under attack from all sides - that's only because she did not get hit very often, and even if she did get hit, it was okay for her to take some damage.

    of course, she's still a young, weak, little sorc, and cannot be expected to be as strong as a level 90 sorc. But as a young sorc, she's been tanking very well in the game without blocking, and without dying either!






    That's NOT what I did with this sorc. To level up her merc, she tanked for her merc, waiting on her merc to make the killing, and did not open fire right away.

    In that "Act1 to Act4" NM game, my non-block sorc tanked everywhere because other chars were obviously weaker (though they both were melee builds of similar levels).

    Check the numbers that I listed for this sorc. Despite her 4% blocking, how can she tank and die easily in NM?





    In SC/L, all sorts of sorc die every day. Even in HC/L, sorcs die too. The number of how many sorcs one has played does not matter here. Only the number of deaths that a sorc has had on her path to level 99 matters here.


    (I've played HC/L for years and over a dozen HC/L sorcs, including an untwinked, no-vita sorc in 1.09 HC who solo'ed entire Hell back in 2002 or 2003 - not to mention all the sorcs I did in SP/SC. I've never lost a sorc in HC/L - they only expired with their accounts. If you consider this as bragging, so be it: I was proud of that! However, I won't play HC any more. So I won't talk about them any more. - Anyway, a level 27-39 PvM sorc in SC has absolutely nothing to deserve bragging)


    You don't have an all-vita, tanking sorc. This is essentially telling us that you prefer max block over all-vita mainly because of your limited experience. - however, how to effectively build an all-vita sorc not afraid of tanking is a different subject. If you are interested, we can talk about it elsewhere.



    Here, the real question is not your preference or play style. The question is:

    does 75% blocking provide a 1.10 PvM tanking sorc with any *net* advantage or net benefit over all-vita for the same tanking sorc?

    I've done my work here to prove: no, it does not.


    This statement is as true as the following:

    if you play defensively, a max block sorc will be more powerful (due to extra protection from blocking), while if you play aggressively, an all-vita sorc will last longer (due to the fact that she can absorb much more damage without dying).



    More Numbers for Max Block Believers
    ------------------------------------

    A sorc can easily achieve close to ~10000 defense and 1500+ hit points without BO/Oak (or with 2000+ mana + fully max'ed ES), if built for all-vita.

    compared to a max block sorc, how can such a sorc die easily in any Hell game?


    Both block and vita are equally effective in Hell. They fit into virtually all types of play styles. Which to choose, however, is more or less a matter of personal preference. That's why so many debates have been made on this subject without a consensus.


    However, if you do PvP, blocking may be preferred if your sorc is built for dueling bowazons and such. Otherwise, again a matter of personal perference.


    BTW, tons of damage you take in Hell cannot be blocked. If you like me do lots of solo and rushing in hell, you'll know all this by heart. 75% blocking is not bad, but 2% blocking with high defense and tons of hit points may actually allow you to survive longer and play more aggressively (depending on how good your gear is).
     

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