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Matriarch Tempest, cb/es sorc

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Zenigma, Jul 2, 2015.

  1. Zenigma

    Zenigma Diabloii.Net Member

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    I was inspired by the great maareek to finish Tempest after he wrote up his mat thread, mentioning my specially-made toy from my post in the IFT, so I finally finished my half-geared bolting wonder. Without any further ado, I present Matriarch Tempest.

    Baal was defeated at level 86, sitting at 1.176 billion exp.

    Stats:
    STR: 10 (53)
    DEX: 25 (31)
    VIT: 10 (53)
    NRG: 435 (435)
    unused stats: 40
    (Yes, I only put into energy, because I find it to be fun to focus on only one stat point for a handful of builds, and with using es, the opportunity is one I could not pass up for the sake of it. Thank goodness for charms.)

    Life: 379 geared
    Mana: 1159 geared

    Fire Res: -20
    Cold Res: 26
    Lightning Res: -20
    Poison Res: 52

    FCR: 120 (8 frames)
    FHR: 15 (12 frames, AKA terribad)

    Skills:
    Warmth: 1 (5)

    Charged Bolt: 20 (28) (255-276, 24 bolts)
    Static Field: 1 (9)
    Telekinesis: 13
    Teleport: 1 (9)
    Lightning: 20
    Chain Lightning: 1
    Energy Shield: 20 (cast at 31) (86% absorb)
    Lightning Mastery: 20 (28)

    In the future:
    1 to shiver armor, to further aid damage avoidance by preemptively slowing melee attackers (maybe it'll be on my future 9 es memory staff :p haha)
    max telekinesis to further mitigate mana damage
    then spare points into warmth, I guess, because ...marginal benefits? I don't knows, it just seems most reasonable.

    Gear: (Wait for it, you're going to laugh at some of this junk)
    Head: Angel's Circlet of the Magus <- Super-poor-man's griffs. Actually, it's not even comparable. But it does the job
    Body: VMagi (29/13)
    Belt: Arach
    Gloves: Magefist
    Boots:
    Code:
     Carrion Brogues
    Demonhide Boots
    Defense: 32
    Durability: 12 of 12
    Required Level: 24
    Required Strength: 20
    Fingerprint: 0xd740c07f
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +10% Faster Run/Walk
    +10% Faster Hit Recovery
    +19 Maximum Stamina
    Cold Resist +37%
    Poison Resist +38%
    Ammy:
    Code:
     Raven Scarab
    Amulet
    Required Level: 50
    Fingerprint: 0xff8822ab
    Item Level: 87
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +2 to Lightning Skills (Sorceress Only)
    +10% Faster Cast Rate
    +20 to Strength
    +12 to Life
    Cold Resist +9%
    All Resistances +11
    Rings:
    Code:
     Raven Gyre
    Ring
    Required Level: 37
    Fingerprint: 0xe1e6ab4a
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +10% Faster Cast Rate
    +1 to Maximum Damage
    +98 to Attack Rating
    All Resistances +4
    Poison Resist +29%
    
    Beast Coil
    Ring
    Required Level: 37
    Fingerprint: 0x374d3b90
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +10% Faster Cast Rate
    +60 to Attack Rating
    +3 to Strength
    All Resistances +6
    Poison Resist +5%
    Level 4 Charged Bolt (30/30 Charges) 
    Weapon: Eth Infinity Scythe (-50% ELR) <- This amazing piece of equipment makes /p8 Hell a viable option.
    Switch: Spirit/Visceratuant <- Am I friggen kiddin' myself? I have ten Oculi (Oculuses? Ocula?) in my gomule stashes.

    Charms: (They're not all great, but since I'm all self-found, I'll do with what I can. Also, I know there's more room for charms, but I wanted to save the room for cube and extra space, and maybe more Sparking gcs will fill that space someday...)
    Code:
    Large Charm of Strength
    Large Charm
    Required Level: 13
    Fingerprint: 0x97cd91c0
    Item Level: 58
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +5 to Strength 
    
    Large Charm of Strength
    Large Charm
    Required Level: 13
    Fingerprint: 0xb851c219
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +5 to Strength 
    
    Lucky Large Charm of Strength
    Large Charm
    Required Level: 13
    Fingerprint: 0x9e900950
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +5 to Strength
    5% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
    
    Large Charm of Strength
    Large Charm
    Required Level: 13
    Fingerprint: 0x9f51bcdf
    Item Level: 75
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +5 to Strength 
    
    Serpent's Small Charm of Vita
    Small Charm
    Required Level: 40
    Fingerprint: 0x15d00963
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +20 to Life
    +17 to Mana 
    
    Stout Small Charm of Vita
    Small Charm
    Required Level: 39
    Fingerprint: 0x30cf90be
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +1 Defense
    +20 to Life 
    
    Burly Small Charm of Vita
    Small Charm
    Required Level: 39
    Fingerprint: 0xb658a518
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +16 Defense
    +20 to Life 
    
    Snake's Small Charm of Vita
    Small Charm
    Required Level: 39
    Fingerprint: 0xc9e00d52
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +17 to Life
    +12 to Mana 
    
    Snake's Small Charm of Vita
    Small Charm
    Required Level: 39
    Fingerprint: 0x7b5eb27e
    Item Level: 85
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +19 to Life
    +12 to Mana 
    
    Serpent's Small Charm of Balance
    Small Charm
    Required Level: 40
    Fingerprint: 0x6458ad9
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +5% Faster Hit Recovery
    +15 to Mana 
    
    Serpent's Grand Charm of Dexterity
    Grand Charm
    Required Level: 29
    Fingerprint: 0x5cd167ef
    Item Level: 80
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +6 to Dexterity
    +43 to Mana 
    
    Sparking Grand Charm of Venom
    Grand Charm
    Required Level: 42
    Fingerprint: 0xba7ee1f5
    Item Level: 60
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +1 to Lightning Skills (Sorceress Only)
    Adds 15 Poison Damage Over 4 Secs (100 Frames) 
    
    Sparking Grand Charm of Greed
    Grand Charm
    Required Level: 42
    Fingerprint: 0xa7b92fad
    Item Level: 94
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +1 to Lightning Skills (Sorceress Only)
    22% Extra Gold from Monsters 
    
    Sparking Grand Charm
    Grand Charm
    Required Level: 42
    Fingerprint: 0x657024e
    Item Level: 85
    Version: Expansion 1.10+
    +1 to Lightning Skills (Sorceress Only) 
    
    The Simpleton:
    Zanarhi - Desert Mercenary (Prayer-Normal)
    Weapon: Eth Insight Partizan (it's surprisingly strong--on par with non-eth elite insights.)
    Armor: Fort ds
    Head: vgaze (8/8/20/14...too bad it isn't eth D: )

    Build notes:
    -Insanely powerful, and as I've noted in other threads, I intended to complete all of Hell at /p8
    -Can struggle with a few monster types and boss modifiers (high-damage & ranged, drains mana, unbreakable LI, and mana burn are all things to look out for). With cautious play and patience, none of these can stop you.
    -My gear is far from optimized, and I am still blown away by its efficacy.
    -Once you break an immunity, the massive amount of -%ELR will make a previously scary monster laughably easy by comparison.
    -Any monster not LI to start often goes down in fractions of a second when telestomped, (yes, even on /p8)
    -Have I mentioned yet that I went through Hell on /p8? Because I did. And it's not because I'm a super duper amazing player. The infinity is a game-changer. Just don't teleport around recklessly, or else you will get stopped in your tracks quickly. Running around without gear makes it painfully obvious how weak you are without gear on.
    -Worth noting is conviction's and -%ELR's effect on Static Field. It's really significant. I need to learn to use it more when starting fights, because taking targets to 50% health in 1-3 casts is just too good.
    -I really want to emphasize the /p8 hell, because this is my character to do it in full.
    -About es, since it absorbs damage before resistances are applied, I didn't make maxing resists all that important to me. I probably should pull them positive though. I will do that eventually.
    -This build is perhaps the most fun one I've played. Using one skill to great effect in a variety of situations, adapting playstyle to the set of constraints at hand, it's quite rewarding.
    -The way I've done things is rather quirky (not investing hard stats in strength to open up my inventory, not getting SA earlier, wielding infinity myself...

    Quick breakdown of quest progression:
    Note, I died a lot at first until just a few days ago, because I never took it upon myself to truly learn how to play a cb sorc on anything tougher than /p1 Hell before now. On /p1, you can telestomp a group of enemies and spray in all directions and come out mostly unscathed. On /p8... not so much. You don't go engaging in the telestomping goodness even on single targets all the time. Knowing which targets are good and under which circumstances you can smash their faces in is critical to killing quickly without dying.

    Okay, so normal and nightmare were completed on /p8. Nothing special, probably died a handful of times, don't remember... I parked her in act three nm at level 61 until I made the infinity, and then I resumed her weeks or months later. Then she finished up nightmare in a hurry.

    Hell! >> I died a lot until around act 3. And I stopped playing the character for a while... until maareek decided to make one and finish it and post about it. So then I buckled down, decided I would try to not die, and hulk-smashed my way through the rest of Hell. I ended up only dying a handful more times throughout the rest of the game. Ancients were dealt with at (can you guess) /p8, no rerolls. Only Madwac was LI, but It was broken. I static'ed them and let loose the fury of the bolts, and I teleported around quite a bit, because I wanted to avoid the mana burn of Korlic and Talic. I didn't park Lister, because with a character this strong, who needs to? I drew him and his minions out in a line and kept on the defensive, because (surprise, surprise) ....mana burn.
    Oh, and Hell forge yielded an Ist. No notable drops otherwise. If there were, I'm sure I've already posted them in the IFT.

    Plans for el futuro
    -being badass
    -pooping on baal and diablo and cows
    -improving gear--griffs, more gcs, hopefully a 9 es staff for switch, maybe replace inf stick with eschutas/spirit for 200 fcr fun and some hella damage. That would require replacing insight on merc, however. Oh, and my merc is going to upgrade to eth CV insight when his strength is high enough. That ought to be good. There is a lot to improve.

    It's 2:46 AM, and I'm tired, so I'm sure I missed a few things, I'll edit it later tomorrow, maybe at lunch or perhaps after work. Or perhaps not at all. We will see.

    As always, criticism and questions welcome.

    Thank you for reading!
     
    Pyrotechnician, Grape, Korlic and 2 others like this.
  2. BBS_Agonistes

    BBS_Agonistes Diabloii.Net Member

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    Awesome work, and great writeup!

    I might have to make one of these, and I've been meaning to try ES sometime, and I've never made a lightning sorc. Also, I love making sorcs that use huge two handed weapons. Even if she didn't hit anything with it, it'd still be a nice touch.

    Would sacrificing the -50% enemy LR offset the 200 fcr? I'd be interested to calculate which would actually inflict more damage, although obviously 200 fcr would be great for static field.

    The biggest difference between your write up and maareek's?
    I'm sure @maareek would have said "So, with much ado without nothing, I present Matriarch Tempest" in order to have two Shakespeare allusions in this line.
     
  3. Zenigma

    Zenigma Diabloii.Net Member

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    God, I haven't reread this since I posted it, and I'm not going to for now, because I feel like there's a lot of stuff that I'd have to fix in it. I thank you for saying that it's a great write-up though.

    I love Charged Bolt, and wield Infinity used to be but a dream. But then I discovered LK runs and runes started coming my way, so I could feel the very real possibility of finally making her. I am neither disappointed nor regretful of my decision. ...However, I guess it isn't for everyone... Before you inverst in the gear for her, I'd suggest getting to normal baal and doing some runs with a 105% fcr build. (Try some combination of Spirit/Occy, VMagi, Lidless, Magefist, fcr circlet, caster belt, and jewelry to hit that breakpoint. It's really easy to achieve.) See if you like the playstyle.

    200% puts her at 7 frames per cast, versus 105% at 8 frames per cast. so that's around 14% more damage output right there. Combined with up to +5 skills (Spirit and Eschuta's) and +20% lightning damage, and a 5/5 facet because let's say I have one of those lying around for argument... It will probably be better against anything not lightning immune, but it might suffer against broken LIs without that (up to) 60% ELR debuff. I've heard that 200% fcr is great fun though, so it could be worth trying for giggles. This is all speculative; I've never played with such gear, but one day, I might. If I do, I'll try to do a comparison. I think I would probably miss having the insight on the merc though--it combos so well with ES, it's criminal. I can take a few hits, walk away, and regain my mana in short order. On top of that, you get to double dip on prayer because of synergies. Basically, you get two level 18 prayer auras going at once.

    maareek's character is pretty similar to mine. Except he hasn't put down on ES. Because my gear isn't all up to snuff, his actually does way more damage. He has 10 more -% ELR, and more +skills (I lack a Griffon's Eye, he has Spirit/SoJ/BK equipped, and he's using more skillers than I have). Since he's using infinity on his mercenary, he doesn't lose that aura, in fact, it might hit more relevant targets, assuming he shoots off around where his merc is. Plus he gets cb on his merc that way.

    If I find a Grif's, I'd put thought into using Frostburn for once. 40% more mana would be very welcome. Perhaps Bloodfist because I need fhr, and 40 health doesn't hurt. Walking away is good enough for now to escape chained hit recovery, though.

    P.S.: I ran Mephisto a couple of times. Destroy him in a fraction of the time. Even /p8 Mephisto goes down in a few seconds. She can do Pindle, Diablo, Baal, Mephisto, and probably any other boss you want to run. BUT, she lacks mf. I'm sure I could fix that at the expense of survivability, but when you have a meat shield and kill quickly, who needs to survive?
     
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  4. Maltatai

    Maltatai Diabloii.Net Member

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    So did you play on /players8 or something? Didn't quite catch that :D

    Sounds like you had a good time playing the character despite the deaths. And poor equipment is never something to laugh at, just all the more impressive!
     
  5. maareek

    maareek Diabloii.Net Member

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    Awesome! Glad to hear you enjoyed her so much; it's always great when a plan comes together. That amulet is quite nice, and that perfect Serpent's SC of Vita is drool-worthy. Good writeup, too.

    As for 200% FCR: the damage increase is roughly equivalent to ~1.75 skill points, based on just pure average damage and not taking resistances into the equation. So the exact gear differences are pretty key. I can definitely imagine gear tiers where 200% FCR is probably better (of course all this is assuming Infinity; without it a Crescent Moon setup is unbeatable I'm pretty sure) in terms of damage to non-immunes, but I think 105 FCR will be better in more circumstances. For general questing there's probably not a big enough difference to really worry about, I'd guess.
     
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  6. Zenigma

    Zenigma Diabloii.Net Member

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    Oh yes! I may have forgotten to mention that I played her on /p8. Thank you for reminding me!

    I'm glad it was impressive despite the deaths. For what it's worth, I rarely die with her now, still working on my tactics, though. I hope that figure eventually hits 0. I'm confident that with more practice it will, and mayhaps some upgrades to my gear.

    Thank you for your feedback, guys.

    And I love that sc. I found one on bnet like 6 years ago, so it's nice to have it again in the permanence of SP.

    When it comes to the best of the best gear, I am pretty sure that you can get a 200% fcr setup that will out-dps 105% fcr setups. The more damage you do, the more significant the one frame becomes in terms of scaling damage. Combined with better mobility and maybe even better survivability, it seems like a no-brainer at that point.
     
  7. Grape

    Grape Diabloii.Net Member

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    Thanks for the great write-up! Completing /p8 Hell is always a nice feat.

    I have had lately a lot long hours (CS runs *cough*) to think about what I want to try out in D2. Self-wielding Infinity build(s) is one of them for sure. Thanks for inspiration :)
     
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  8. maareek

    maareek Diabloii.Net Member

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    I mentioned resistances in my previous post, and they're going to be the lynchpin of what I'm about to say. It has always been my understanding that lowering resistances is almost always the most efficient way to increase damage ("always" isn't exactly accurate, in fact I should probably just reword this all to "because resistances affect final damage, lowering a monster's resistances by an amount will beat out anything short of providing a commensurate positive boost to final skill damage [which is incredibly hard to do for anything other than cold skills because of the way masteries work]" but that's wordy as all hell so bleh). As I say, though, that's been my understanding from what I've read about the way resistances work; I have never mathed it out, so I figure given the situation here I'd run some numbers and see what they say about my assumption. This also has the benefit of being a little easier to follow in terms of an explanation if things work the way I think they do.

    First of all it's necessary to get a baseline for the damage, and for that I needed to confirm that the basis of my calculations (that is to say the german skill calculator) was accurate on this skill. After doing that (which I did by confirming the calculator's claim of a base damage of 13.5-15.5 for slvl20 Charged Bolt without any modifiers by calculating it out after pumping Lightning and Lightning Mastery to 20 each; in other words 13.5*2.2*3.78=112, 15.5*2.2*3.78=128, confirmed by mathing it out myself, looking at the calculator and then looking at it in-game.)

    Second, it's important to get a few base damage points, from which we can compare. I elected to start off by grabbing the damage with 8 plus skills because it's what Tempest has. Clearly you already listed that amount, so I was able to move on quickly to some other points.

    Code:
                      Base damage       Final damage
    slvl28             24.5-26.5          255-276
    slvl28(+15%LSD)    24.5-26.5          263-285
    slvl34             36.5-38.5          438-462
    slvl34(+15%LSD)    36.5-38.5          450-475
    slvl38             44.5-46.5          581-607
    slvl38(+15%LSD)    44.5-46.5          596-623
    slvl35             38.5-40.5          472-497
    slvl35(+15%LSD)    38.5-40.5          485-510
    slvl37             42.5-44.5          544-569
    slvl37(+15%LSD)    42.5-44.5          558-584
    slvl36             40.5-42.5          507-532
    slvl36(+15%LSD)    40.5-42.5          521-546
    
    The first is Tempest's skills. The second is BoltOnBoltOff's. The third is a 105FCR setup with HotO and 4 skillers. The fourth is a 200FCR setup with HotO, 2skills+fcr amulet, and 4 skillers. Fifth is a 105FCR setup with Crescent Moon, 2skills+fcr amulet, CoH and 2xbeta BKWB and 4 skillers. I included the last one after I finished up and was curious about that exact slvl at 200FCR. The 15%LightningSkillDamage is assuming Griffon's (I'm assuming a Griffon's with +15/-20, whether that's from socketing or not).

    Now I needed to take the above damage per bolt and adjust it for resistances. Since the range of resistances on basic monsters ranges from 0-95 I figured it was easier to just pick a single resistance point and compare each against it. 75 seemed quite straightforward to me since that's where any 0 resistance Lightning Enchanted enemy would end up and there are multiple enemies with that level naturally. Note that I assume Infinity in all these calculations, which provides -85% resistance, and additional boosts where noted (+15%LSD numbers get a -20% buff from Griffon's and CM builds get that -35%boost).

    Code:
                     Final damage      Res. adj. damage
    slvl28             255-276            280-303(weapon/spirit)  408-441(-50%Infinity)
    slvl28(+15%LSD)    263-285            341-370(weapon/spirit)  473-513(-50%Infinity)
    slvl34             438-462            635-669
    slvl34(+15%LSD)    450-475            742-783
    slvl38             581-607            639-667
    slvl38(+15%LSD)    596-623            774-809
    slvl35             472-497            519-546
    slvl35(+15%LSD)    485-510            630-663
    slvl37             544-569            788-825
    slvl37(+15%LSD)    558-584            920-963
    slvl36             507-532            557-585
    slvl36(+15%LSD)    521-546            677-709
    
    And then last of all, I needed to compensate for casting rate.

    Code:
                    Res. adj. damage          Adj. DPS
    slvl28             280-303(w/s)          873-945(8frames)     999-1081(7frames)
                       408-441(-50%Infinity)1272-1375(8frames)
    slvl28(+15%LSD)    341-370(w/s)         1063-1154(8frames)   1217-1320(7frames)
                       473-513(-50%Infinity)1475-1600(8frames)
    slvl34             635-669              1981-2087(8frames)      
    slvl34(+15%LSD)    742-783              2315-2442(8frames)
    slvl38             639-667              1993-2081(8frames)
    slvl38(+15%LSD)    774-809              2414-2524(8frames)
    slvl35             519-546              1852-1949(7frames)
    slvl35(+15%LSD)    630-663              2249-2366(7frames)
    slvl37             788-825              2458-2574(8frames)
    slvl37(+15%LSD)    920-963              2870-3004(8frames)
    slvl36             557-585              1988-2088(7frames)
    slvl36(+15%LSD)    677-709              2416-2531(7frames)
    
    Just so we're all clear here, what I'm using to double check the skill calculator is the formulas found here. Once you have final damage you can multiply that by the bonus from the enemy's resistance (for instance, given the tests I did above a monster with 75 res affected by Infinity is just final damage*1.1; adding Crescent Moon means you multiply by 1.45, etc.) and then that figure gets multiplied by the attacks per second (I used 3.12 for 8 frames per attack and 3.57 for 7 frames per attack, though that is truncating some numbers that I'm not 100% sure the game truncates...though the damage difference would be tiny).

    And one last note, because it may be a little opaque I'm going to outline the gear I'm thinking of for each build. For the +15%LSD build, the hat becomes Griffon's.

    1.
    Skill/fcr hat
    fcr amulet
    HotO
    Vipermagi
    Spirit
    Arachnid's
    fcr gloves
    fcr rings

    OR

    setup in the first post, for Infinity version
    2.
    Skill/fcr hat
    mara's
    Crescent Moon
    Vipermagi
    Spirit
    Arachnid's
    gloves
    2x1skill ring
    Battle Command
    4 skillers
    3.
    skill/fcr hat
    2skill amulet
    CoH
    HotO
    Spirit
    Arachnid's
    fcr gloves
    2x1skill rings
    Battle Command
    4 skillers
    4.
    Skill/fcr hat
    2skills/fcr amulet
    HotO
    Vipermagi
    Spirit
    Arachnid's
    fcr gloves
    2xfcr rings
    Battle Command
    4 skillers
    5.
    skill/fcr hat
    2skill/fcr amulet
    Crescent Moon
    CoH
    Spirit
    Arachnid's
    fcr gloves
    2xbeta BKWB
    Battle Command
    4 skillers
    6.
    Exact same as #4, except with a 2/20 amulet on the Griffon's version, with an SoJ switched in for one of the rings.

    I would like to hammer home again that these numbers are specific to monsters with exactly 75 resistance, but I felt that was common enough to be a good marker. Still, this should be reasonably indicative for monsters where -res builds don't bottom out at -100%. Also, normal caveats of me derping on the math and so forth apply.
     
  9. Zenigma

    Zenigma Diabloii.Net Member

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    I am a big fan of numbers, but have you considered eschuta's? As hoto, 3 skills, 40 fcr, but with 20% light damage for argument's sake, and a possibility to socket for more damage.

    Here's what I was thinking would do the most damage at 200% fcr:

    Head: Griffon (facet)
    Body: Vmagi (facet)
    Ammy: +2 skills, 20 fcr
    Rings: SoJ and fcr
    Gloves: Mages/Trangs
    Belt: Arach
    Weapon: Eschuta (facet)
    Shield: Spirit
    BO switch

    Then fill up your inventory with as many light gcs as you desire

    +skills on gear: 11 (12 with bc)
    With gcs, that goes up to 21 +skills

    -%ELR: (20) Griffon + 3x(5) Facets = -35% ELR (with infintity on merc, -120% ELR total)
    +%LSD: (15) Griffon + 3x(5) Facets + (20) Eschuta = +50% LSD

    If you care to take the time/resources to max out damage, I think you'll find it in this setup.

    The calculator I found has a level 41 charged bolt with level 20 lightning synergy and level 41 lightning mastery at 699-727 damage.
    Frankly, I don't know how the 50% LSD bonus applies, whether it's cumulative or gets added to lightning mastery. My inclination is to add it to the lightning mastery, but I would need an expert. Also, I'm slightly intoxicated right now so I can't be bothered to look it up myself (sorry). Regardless, I'm seeing a whole lot of damage from this setup as is, and consider it with an inf on the merc, thought I'm sure that goes without saying. :) [Though in case it must go with saying, I changed the -%ELR section to reflect what an inf on merc would contribute.]
     
  10. TheNix

    TheNix Diabloii.Net Member

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    Congratulations, a very nice looking Mat!

    I noticed you only mentioned mana burn a few times and didn't seem to have too much of a problem with it. It's the thing that I most worry about with my Enchantress, and I will get back to her someday!
     
  11. maareek

    maareek Diabloii.Net Member

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    +%Lightning or Fire Skill Damage get added to their respective mastery. That's why +%Cold Skill Damage is so much more powerful comparatively. The calculation for final damage on the CB sorc you list (slvl42 light skills, -35%eLR, +50%LSD) is as follows: min damage=52.5*2.2*6.92=799; max damage=54.5*2.2*6.92=829. 2.2 is the synergy bonus (120% from Lightning, the only synergy) and 6.92 is the mastery bonus (542% from slvl42 lightning mastery+50% from +Lightning Skill Damage). You then mulitply those numbers by the resistance penalty or boost (1-((monster res-(-eLR)/100) to get the damage adjusted by resistances. For instance: min damage=799*1.45=1158; max damage=829*1.45=1202. 1.45 because the resistance of a monster with 75% resistance after conviction and -35%eLR is -45% (75-85-35). Then you multiply those numbers by the attacks per second to get your damage per second. min damage=1158*3.57=4134; max damage=1202*3.57=4291. There are 25 frames in an in-game second, so a 7 frame attack attacks 3.57 times per second (25/7; I truncate past the hundredths because the german IAS calculator does).

    The additional boost from Eschuta's is one and two-thirds skill points of Lightning Mastery. Personally I never rate that higher than HotO's resistances, life and mana but your mileage may certainly vary. As you say, though, it does provide another slot for a facet, which is a significant source of damage.

    The below table is taking its cue from your gear above. Griffon's and facets are all perfect, as are Eschuta's and fcr amulets. I'm counting a perfect Griffon's with a perfect facet in every build, so I only mention 2x and 3xfacets for differentiation purposes. I'm still using a monster with 75% resistance as the basis for the numbers.
    Code:
           Base Damage Final Damage Res.adj.damage adj.DPS    Notes
    slvl42   52.5-54.5    799-829    1158-1202    4134-4291   200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;3xfacets
    slvl42   52.5-54.5    793-823    1110-1152    3962-4112   200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;2xfacets
    slvl42   52.5-54.5    770-799    1078-1118    3848-3991   200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;HotO;2xfacets
    slvl40   48.5-50.5    680-708    1156-1203    3606-3753   105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(nofacet)
    slvl40   48.5-50.5    686-714    1200-1249    3744-3896   105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(facet)
    slvl41   50.5-52.5    722-750    1227-1275    3828-3978   105fcr;CM;CoH
    slvl41   50.5-52.5    755-785    1094-1138    3905-4062   200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;3xfacets
    slvl41   50.5-52.5    749-779    1048-1090    3741-3891   200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;2xfacets
    slvl44   56.5-58.5    852-882    1150-1190    3588-3712   105fcr;HotO; CoH;2xSoJ
    slvl44   56.5-58.5    883-915    1236-1281    3856-3996   105fcr;Eschuta;CoH;2xSoJ;2xfacets
    slvl43   54.5-56.5    808-837    1373-1422    4283-4436   105fcr;CM;CoH;2xbeta BKWB
    slvl43   54.5-56.5    844-875    1223-1268    4366-4526   200fcr;2/20amu;Eschuta;3xfacets;beta BKWB
    slvl43   54.5-56.5    838-868    1173-1215    4187-4337   200fcr;2/20amu;Eschuta;2xfacets;beta BKWB
    
    Of course all of that is assuming 10 skillers for each setup. What happens if we adjust that to 8, so you can have the cube and actually pick things up?
    Code:
           Base Damage  Final Damage Res.adj.damage adj.DPS     Notes
    slvl40   48.5-50.5     712-742      1032-1075   3684-3837   200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;3xfacets
    slvl40   48.5-50.5     707-736       989-1030   3530-3677   200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;2xfacets
    slvl40   48.5-50.5     686-714       960-999    3427-3566   200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;HotO;2xfacets
    slvl38   44.5-46.5     601-628      1021-1067   3185-3329   105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(nofacet)
    slvl38   44.5-46.5     606-633      1060-1107   3307-3453   105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(facet)
    slvl39   46.5-48.5     640-667      1088-1133   3394-3534   105fcr;CM;CoH
    slvl39   46.5-48.5     671-699       972-1013   3470-3616   200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;3xfacets
    slvl39   46.5-48.5     665-694       931-971    3323-3466   200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;2xfacets
    slvl42   52.5-54.5     764-793      1031-1070   3216-3338   105fcr;HotO; CoH
    slvl42   52.5-54.5     793-823      1110-1152   3463-3594   105fcr;Eschuta;CoH;2xfacets
    slvl41   50.5-52.5     722-750      1227-1275   3828-3978   105fcr;CM;CoH;2xbeta BKWB
    slvl41   50.5-52.5     755-785      1094-1138   3905-4062   200fcr;2/20amu;Eschuta;3xfacets;beta BKWB
    slvl41   50.5-52.5     749-779      1048-1090   3741-3891   200fcr;2/20amu;Eschuta;2xfacets;beta BKWB
    
    So yes, it would seem that we can conclude a 200fcr setup with 3x facets will deal the most damage to monsters at 75% resistance (and presumably to those with less as well) so it would seem that's where you want to be for just damage. Keep in mind of course that the most powerful 200FCR setups require a 2/20 amulet, which is, to put it mildly, insanely rare. If you don't have one of those, the damage between the 2xfcr rings 200FCR setups becomes much more comparable to the 105fcr ones, and requires you to only use facets in the gear (no boosting resists or getting any MF) to stay ahead.

    Lastly I figured I'd go ahead and point out the differences between the setups in terms of dealing with broken immunities. "Min. Immune DPS" marks the DPS against monsters with the minimum immunity value (100%resistance) while "max. immune DPS" marks the DPS against monsters with the maximum immunity value that can be broken by Infinity (115% resistance). For space reasons I omitted the "res. adj. damage" value from the above tables, but Infinity's Conviction is always -17%eLR against an immune, which is added to the gear -eLR then subtracted from the monster's resistance to get the value to multiply as above (do note that this is just in terms of this calculation; in game terms the -resistance from Conviction is completely different than the -eLR from gear and they inhabit completely different parts of the resistance formula). For example: min damage=712*.52=370*3.57=1320. .52 is the amount of damage getting through to the monster (100 base resistance - 52eLR=48% resistance) and 3.57 is the attacks per second.
    Code:
           Final Damage  Min.Immune DPS Max.Immune DPS   Notes
    slvl40     712-742     1320-1374        938-978      200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;3xfacets
    slvl40     707-736     1185-1231        806-838      200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;2xfacets
    slvl40     686-714     1149-1195        781-813      200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;HotO;2xfacets
    slvl38     601-628     1441-1506       1160-1213     105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(nofacet)
    slvl38     606-633     1547-1619       1266-1322     105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(facet)
    slvl39     640-667     1535-1600       1235-1288     105fcr;CM;CoH
    slvl39     671-699     1242-1295        885-921      200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;3xfacets
    slvl39     665-694     1113-1163        756-792      200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;2xfacets
    slvl42     764-793      998-1038        642-667      105fcr;HotO; CoH
    slvl42     793-823     1160-1204        789-820      105fcr;Eschuta;CoH;2xfacets
    slvl41     722-750     1731-1800       1394-1450     105fcr;CM;CoH;2xbeta BKWB
    slvl41     755-785     1399-1456        996-1035     200fcr;2/20amu;Eschuta;3xfacets;beta BKWB
    slvl41     749-779     1256-1306        853-888      200fcr;2/20amu;Eschuta;2xfacets;beta BKWB
    
    So, again, resistances make a major difference. The more broken immunity monsters you face, the stronger a build using Crescent Moon becomes in comparison and the less impressive 200FCR is. It does still win out in pure damage in a vacuum with the right gear, but what you plan to do with the character still matters a ton since running areas with immunes makes 200FCR much less enticing and 200FCR asks much more of you in terms of what you put on your char and may leave you wishing you had more in some areas (resists, mana, mf, etc.).

    That said, keep in mind that all of the calculations above are per bolt, and slvl22+Charged Bolt spits out 24 bolts. You won't hit every target with all of them, but it's not outside the realm of possibility to figure you'll hit with at least 10 a good portion of the time, which would amplify each delta by 10 (or what have you).

    Lastly, there's a non-zero percent chance that I herped, or possibly even derped, in the math somewhere.
     
  12. Zenigma

    Zenigma Diabloii.Net Member

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    Yes, very good points, and thanks for confirming what I thought about +%LSD. I have considered those facets of enemy resistance (which is one of the reasons why I chose to wield the infinity).

    Benefits of wielding infinity:
    ·High -%ELR
    ·35% frw
    ·Good vitality by level
    ·Frees up merc weapon slot

    That last one is big.

    I'm going to be keeping my general setup for quite a while, anyways, because having an eth cv insight on my merc is so helpful. Granted, losing cb on the merc isn't great, but cb scaling down at higher player settings means that isn't too huge a loss.
     
  13. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    Zenigma is obviously trying to contend with maareek for the title of "The Great". There can't be more than one "The Great" can there????

    Also I like this current trend of CB sorcs, nice job.

    I unfortunately had to much to drink recently so I can't even begin to understand what you typed, can you give me a TL;DR by chance of what you found out?
     
  14. Zenigma

    Zenigma Diabloii.Net Member

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    Findings: CB is pretty badass.

    /approved

    Also, I glossed over Nix's concerns:
    Manaburn was annoying infrequently. After learning the more approriate times to telestomp enemies, i rearely had my mana drained to it. If it did happen, I would do my best to walk out of the fray and tele away shortly after. Insight on the merc is a godsend here, because I certainly gained some degree of tankiness from it combined with ES. The biggest scares came from hit recovery lock, andf the key is the same--walk away ...and hope that enemies target your merc as you slink away from the middle of the fight.
    Ultimately, I find myself watching for modifiers that most often prove troublesome: mana burn, drains mana, and lightning immunity that doesn't break under the mostly unrelenting pressure of conviction.
    When it comes down to it, mana burn is mitigated by a handful of factors: distance, awareness, and a meat shield.
     
  15. TheNix

    TheNix Diabloii.Net Member

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    I was sort of hoping it wouldn't come down to this :). When I said Enchantress I actually meant to say ES Enchantress. I was planing to go melee using my 1.07 eBOtDz, so distance is going to be a problem. Also, because I tend to just rush blindly into battle before even looking at a monsters abilities, one just might say that my awareness is a little lacking. I guess I'll need a bloody good meat shield then!! ;)
     
  16. maareek

    maareek Diabloii.Net Member

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    If we take our cue from either dictators or magicians, then yes, in fact there can be legion. "You get a 'the great!' And you get a 'the great!' Everybody gets a 'the great!'"

    TL;DRing isn't really my bag, but I'll give it a shot.

    For low to intermediate +skills, a -eLR build with either holding Infinity or using Crescent Moon will out-damage 200%FCR against the majority of monsters. For high +skills (high 30's and above) a high-end 200%FCR build starts to out-damage a -eLR setup against most monsters, but even at its best it's still weaker against broken immunes. Also, facets are very good. Against immunes, a facet is more impactful than a skill point, though against non-immunes the skill point is more valuable.

    For instance, the following tables compare similar 200%FCR builds, the first with 3 facets, the second with 2 facets and the third with 3 facets but one less +skill. In the first table I'm comparing total damage per bolt against a monster with 75% resistance, while in the second I'm comparing total damage per bolt against monsters with 100% resistance ("Min Immune DPS") and 115% resistance ("Max Immune DPS").

    Code:
              adj.DPS      Notes
    slvl40    3684-3837    200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;3xfacets
    slvl40    3530-3677    200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;2xfacets
    slvl39    3470-3616    200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;3xfacets
    
    Code:
            Min.Immune DPS  Max.Immune DPS  Notes
    slvl40  1320-1374         938-978       200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;3xfacets
    slvl40  1185-1231         806-838       200fcr;2/20amu;SoJ;Eschuta;2xfacets
    slvl39  1242-1295         885-921       200fcr;Eschuta;2xfcr rings;3xfacets
    
    The difference isn't enormous, but it is both there and acts as the base of a multiplier (remember, this is the per bolt damage, so the delta is multiplied by however many bolts connect), and is consistent between either the 200FCR setups (above) or the 105 FCR setups (for instance compare the "105fcr;CM;CoH" numbers vs "105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(facet)" and 105fcr;CM;Vipermagi(no facet)."

    On the whole it's nothing surprising, and makes sense given what we know about resistances already, but it can be helpful to have some comparative numbers available.

    If that's still not clear let me know and I'll try to get someone smarter than me to do a better job of explaining it all. Shouldn't be too hard to find literal anyone. ^^
     
  17. Pyrotechnician

    Pyrotechnician Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    Nope, don't need anyone smarter to explain it, I just needed to read what you typed at a time when I wasn't stupider than I normally am. Pretty much it boils down to the normal conclusion that against lightning immune monsters more -elr usually has the upper hand except in extreme cases with disparity between skill levels.

    The amount of calculations that you performed is impressive though and more effort than I normally would exert so I thank you for doing it for us.
     

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