Math & history.
- Thread starter Rocksin
- Start date
Re: Math & history.
You'll have to opperationally define 'simple calculations'.
Even animals know that X > Y. Let's say a starving dog finds a big caracass next to a tiny cat. The dog chooses to go after the carcass instead of chasing the cat. The carcass is bigger, and more rewarding than the cat. X > Y.
Even single celled organisms use chemical gradients to steer them in the right dirrection which leads them to the food sources they need. The concentration of food is higher in this region than the region to the left. X > Y.
You'll have to opperationally define 'simple calculations'.
Even animals know that X > Y. Let's say a starving dog finds a big caracass next to a tiny cat. The dog chooses to go after the carcass instead of chasing the cat. The carcass is bigger, and more rewarding than the cat. X > Y.
Even single celled organisms use chemical gradients to steer them in the right dirrection which leads them to the food sources they need. The concentration of food is higher in this region than the region to the left. X > Y.
Tanooki
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
I hate to sound rude, but what did you google?
I tried "history of math" and found the Wikipedia entry
I hate to sound rude, but what did you google?
I tried "history of math" and found the Wikipedia entry
AeroJonesy
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
Same goes for the pack mentality. Ever see that video of lions and wildebeest in South Africa? The lions will go after one wildebeest, but the full herd managed to chase off the lions.
SnickerSnack
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
OP: I'm sure that homo sapiens were not the first, but even some groups of modern humans (and even some still in existence) use(d) a very simple number system. One which I read about and is currently used in some parts of the world is: none, one, many. I don't know if we'd say that even those humans make calculations. Many modern animals can perform arithmetic, but I think that only happens when humans teach them to do it.
As was said above, this depends on what you think constitutes a calculation.
Don't you think that has more to do with the wildebeests being more aggressive/defensive than most herd animals than with their ability to see that they greatly outnumber the lions? Knowledge of group size is irrelevant when the instinct is to fight. Though it would be interesting if the wildebeests only did that when they greatly out numbered the lions and not when they only slightly outnumbered them.
I don't think that page addresses his question directly, though I did only skim through it. The wikipedia page refers only to written records made by modern humans and does not theorize on computations made by pre-humans or nonhuman animals.
OP: I'm sure that homo sapiens were not the first, but even some groups of modern humans (and even some still in existence) use(d) a very simple number system. One which I read about and is currently used in some parts of the world is: none, one, many. I don't know if we'd say that even those humans make calculations. Many modern animals can perform arithmetic, but I think that only happens when humans teach them to do it.
As was said above, this depends on what you think constitutes a calculation.
WildBerry
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
QFT. I'm not sold to the idea of that showing ability to grasp abstract concept such as a whole number.
Therefore, it is appropriate to it's title, as history begins with the writing. Anything before is pre-history. Which is also why the OP's title is in need of a looser definition.
Tanooki
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
I guess I don't buy "intuition math". Theoretically, every time I throw a ball straight into the air and then catch it I'm doing "intuition physics", but I don't think you can say someone "used physics" unless they knew what they were doing - doing it on purpose with a purpose.
So technically all of creation "uses math" and has since the beginning of time - but I highly doubt anyone studied math until the Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics of about 4,000 years ago.
I go with "the question is far too vague". Did a teacher assign it to you or is this your own curiosity? If it's the former, let us know what exactly your teacher claimed the answer was.
I guess I don't buy "intuition math". Theoretically, every time I throw a ball straight into the air and then catch it I'm doing "intuition physics", but I don't think you can say someone "used physics" unless they knew what they were doing - doing it on purpose with a purpose.
So technically all of creation "uses math" and has since the beginning of time - but I highly doubt anyone studied math until the Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics of about 4,000 years ago.
I go with "the question is far too vague". Did a teacher assign it to you or is this your own curiosity? If it's the former, let us know what exactly your teacher claimed the answer was.
WildBerry
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
The paleontological evidence of people counting with whole numbers a lot earlier are there. If we're sticking with the definition of history, then your answer has something to it.
Rocksin
Diabloii.Net Member
SnickerSnack
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
OP: This might help http://www.expertvillage.com/video/160794_who-were-first-people-use.htm
All I did was google "first humans to do math." There are several more links that might be informative.
OP: This might help http://www.expertvillage.com/video/160794_who-were-first-people-use.htm
All I did was google "first humans to do math." There are several more links that might be informative.
Dondrei
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
Wouldn't recommend getting a goat to do your calculus homework though.
I really doubt it. It isn't that abstract, you could probably teach it to a number of species, wouldn't surprise me if some could demonstrate it spontaneously either.
Wouldn't recommend getting a goat to do your calculus homework though.
Ash Housewares
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
looking up math history?
and I thought I was bored
looking up math history?
and I thought I was bored
SnickerSnack
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galois
You only think that because you don't know any math history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galois
Garbad_the_Weak
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
Nonhuman species can perform math.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071218101240.htm
I also dimly recall other species being trained to do math, such as crows. I don't recall the details tho.
Another thing that may be interesting to you is a tribe that can count without words for numbers: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080714111940.htm This has some pretty major implications on how we structure math on a meta level.
Nonhuman species can perform math.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071218101240.htm
I also dimly recall other species being trained to do math, such as crows. I don't recall the details tho.
Another thing that may be interesting to you is a tribe that can count without words for numbers: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080714111940.htm This has some pretty major implications on how we structure math on a meta level.
WildBerry
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
Interprete it for me, what does it imply? Does the fact that there are no abstract concepts (numbers) required mean that the basic mathematics isn't, in fact, abstract at all? Or what? I can't think straight today.
Garbad_the_Weak
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
Unlike science, which is driven by empirically falsifiable hypotheses, math is driven by deductions and calculations from set definitions. Math is assumed to be a universal set of understood rules/processes and that would not vary based on language/culture (ie, you may have different words for 1 but the calculation of 1+1=2 is the same in any thinking system and will always be valid). In fact I believe many of the attempts to communicate with potential alien intelligences are math because there is the assumption that our math would be the same as their math, even if our language, culture, and thinking were radically different on everything else.
This article challenges those assumptions. To the extent the tribe has no concept of numbers in our sense (no concept of 1, much less 1+1) yet can still accurately calculate and solve mathematical problems, they are using some system of math that is different than our own. If this holds, this means our math is not the one true universal way.
Or so it appears to a guy who took like one math class in college, has no background training or expertise whatsoever, and just wanted to look cool on the intarblawg. =/
P.S. Jesus, that might be the dorkiest post I have ever written. Someone add some blood and boobs to this thread ASAP. :girly:
Well, tbh I am pretty ignorant about math but I will give it a shot.
Unlike science, which is driven by empirically falsifiable hypotheses, math is driven by deductions and calculations from set definitions. Math is assumed to be a universal set of understood rules/processes and that would not vary based on language/culture (ie, you may have different words for 1 but the calculation of 1+1=2 is the same in any thinking system and will always be valid). In fact I believe many of the attempts to communicate with potential alien intelligences are math because there is the assumption that our math would be the same as their math, even if our language, culture, and thinking were radically different on everything else.
This article challenges those assumptions. To the extent the tribe has no concept of numbers in our sense (no concept of 1, much less 1+1) yet can still accurately calculate and solve mathematical problems, they are using some system of math that is different than our own. If this holds, this means our math is not the one true universal way.
Or so it appears to a guy who took like one math class in college, has no background training or expertise whatsoever, and just wanted to look cool on the intarblawg. =/
P.S. Jesus, that might be the dorkiest post I have ever written. Someone add some blood and boobs to this thread ASAP. :girly:
Ash Housewares
Diabloii.Net Member
SnickerSnack
Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Math & history.
EDIT: Yup, they use a partially ordered set of quantities. The numbers we are used to are totally ordered. If you take any two numbers, one is bigger than or equal to the other, always (or, in totality).
EDIT: I think this is the group of people I referred to in post #5. Thanks for the article link.
That was boring, huh? Well, I guess your bar is set pretty high for interesting reading.
1+1=2 is set a very specialized case of "normal" addition of integers. In general, 1+1 doesn't mean anything until to define what + is. I haven't read the article you linked (yet), but I'd be willing to bet that they are doing math in that same way that we do math, they just use a different set of items to calculate with. The field of mathematics is very wide and most of them don't use numbers as the basic items to do things with. Heck, even the "real numbers," properly defined, are not a set of particular numbers like integers are, but a field of equivalence classes.
EDIT: Yup, they use a partially ordered set of quantities. The numbers we are used to are totally ordered. If you take any two numbers, one is bigger than or equal to the other, always (or, in totality).
EDIT: I think this is the group of people I referred to in post #5. Thanks for the article link.
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