Mana Burn

Psyrus

Diabloii.Net Member
Mana Burn

Now we all know about how frustrating "insta-depletion" can be, but I wanted to find out why this occurs besides the one possible explanation that came to mind being the fact that most character builds leave energy at its base level.

So, according to Arreat Summit, the mana burn figures work like this:

Mana Minimum Damage: +(Minimum Damage x 4)
Mana Maximum Damage: +(Maximum Damage x 4)


Now unless I'm reading that wrong, or if my math skills are more rusty than I think, when a character gets dealt... let's say 100 damage (typical average damage in the early parts of hell difficulty), the total mana lost would be 100 x 4, and that + in front of the formula is just to keep the result positive. So the result would obviously be 400. Again, correct me here if I'm forgetting something.

Another thing that seems off regarding how mana burn works is that it seems to act differently between difficulties as well as melee and ranged monsters. It seems to work reasonably correct for all monsters in normal, but the melee variety in most of nightmare and all of hell is the culprit for insta-depletion. However, for ranged monsters with mana burn, you may notice that mana loss is not instantaneous which gives the idea that that's the way it's supposed to work in the first place. So what's going on here?

Discuss/comment...
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

The mana burn dmg gets multiplied by 256 when melee, because of blizz not realizing how their own dmg system works.
 

helvete

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

It's true. Getting hit in melee will always burn all mana. DR, ES and the like doesn't help. ES will disappear if mana reaches 0, but with meditation this can mostly be avoided.
 

SinousSiren

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

Helvete & RTB are both correct. Mana burn mechanism Blizzard Inc built is simply a mess, for melee attacking monsters.
 

zhadoom

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

What about "damage taken goes to mana" mods? I saw a belt with 50% damage taken goes to mana, and an armor i think with 45%... together thats 95%...

The main question here is: Is "damage taken goes to mana" applied bevore or after mana burn? When its after, then it should refill your mana bulb in no time... if bevore, its pretty useless i guess.

Does anyone have some experience with that?
 

SinousSiren

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

Mana Burn Bug

Melee attackers that have the mana burn boss mod will incorrectly deal 256 times more manasteal damage then they should (the damage is shifted twice instead of once)
Source: Nefarius, at PK


"Dmg to Mana" items will effect damage taken from regular Physical or Elemental Damage types; but will not effect any taken Mana Steal or Mana Burn damage.


If you don't believe me, see what getting hit by a Serpent Lord staff does to your character with 95% DgtM items.

Be hit by Special Physical Damage (Crushing Blow) and Open Wounds Damage will not trigger any increase to your Mana points, even if your DgtM is maxed out.


There's also happens to be another closely related D2 bug:

Leeching Bug

Melee attacking monsters that do life, mana and stamina steal damage do twice the amount of damage indicated (this means that those bugged mana drain bosses actually do 512 times the proper damage!!), in the function that creates pDamage after an attack hits incorrectly adds the new value to the old value, instead of setting the old value to the new value!
 
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zhadoom

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

Source: Nefarius, at PK
"Dmg to Mana" items will effect damage taken from regular Physical or Elemental Damage types; but will not effect any taken Mana Steal or Mana Burn damage.

If you don't believe me, see what getting hit by a Serpent Lord staff does to your character with 95% DgtM items.
What i thought was: Any mana burn attack is accompanied with a damage to life as well (correct me if im wrong)

So each mana burn hit has 2 parts: One part damaging the life bulb and one part damaging the mana bulb.

And with "damage taken goes to mana" mods there are 3 parts of a mana burn hit:
A. damage to life
B. (huge) damage to mana, aka mana burn
C. mana refill depending on A and "dmage taken goes to mana"-%

I dont know how the game processes them, but theire order would be cruicial:

If B occurs bevore C, then C would refill much of your mana a split second after the mana burn effect has emptied your mana.

If C occurs bevore B, u would end up with no mana, no matter how much "damage taken goes to mana"-% u have

I will try that sometime and post the results here.


 

helvete

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

If you don't believe me, see what getting hit by a Serpent Lord staff does to your character with 95% DgtM items.
What?? The 100% mana stolen per hit on the serpent lord only means that you'll gain as much mana as you do damage (vs a 100% leechable monster).

Mana leech is NOT taking anyones mana, it converts the life you take into mana.

And BTW, in hell it's capped to 1/3, and vs players it's further capped at 1/7 and THEN you factor in the PVP penalty...

So 1/7 * 1/7 * 1/3 = 1/147 whic means you'd have to do 147 *physical* damage with a freaking Long Staff to gain ONE point of mana... And that's not even counting %DR and PDR, which could double that damage.



 

zhadoom

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

Ok i tested it.

I used a 50% damage taken goes to mana belt on lvl ** necromancer. Other slots were empty.

I found a unique quill rat with mana burn in act 1 - outer cloisture. It had melee and ranged attack. I chose nightmare to be able to safely test, without beeing killed too fast, since i had to stand there without merc / pets :wink3:

Melee attacks drained all 365 mana, no matter of the belt beeing equiped or not. I retried with some blue items from larzuk that had only +mana mods. The resulting 585 mana was also drained in 1 attack. Damage to life per attack was 5-25 :shocked:

Ranged attacks drained about 30-35 mana per shot without belt and about 15-17 with the belt. This was only noticeable if mana was not at max. With mana at max, it burned 30 mana with and without belt. Damage to life was 20-25

There u go... "damage taken goes to mana" is applied bevore mana burn, so in the end it does charge your mana up bevore the burn effect occurs. Helps afainst ranged mana burn mobs. Melee (bugged) mana burn though, still drains everything... what a pitty, was starting to think about an immortal mage build :cool:
 

Alecz

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

I am glad u actually tested this and brought some results.

I have to admit I didn't understand what SinousSiren was saying with:

"Dmg to Mana" items will effect damage taken from regular Physical or Elemental Damage types; but will not effect any taken Mana Steal or Mana Burn damage.
"

In regards to your results however, it would still help if you get hit by other monsters than the mana burn one.
Example:
Quill rat pack: 10 rats, 1 mana-burner
1) u get hit by the mana burner, and lose all mana
2) u get hit by normal monsters, and recover some mana
3) mana burned
4) normal hit - mana recovered

This might help a bit, especially on guys like Baal, that burn your mana once in a while, and then use other attacks.
 

muzzz

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

The cold and hard truth: if DtgtM was useful, we'd all be building ES sorcs.
 

Alecz

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

I still find it useful in some situations.
E.g.: with a smiter in Uber trist vs Baal.
 

helvete

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Mana Burn

Yes, early on it can be great too. Nightsmoke is rlvl 20 or something, and has 50%. Great for avengers and other manadependant melee builds.
 
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