Making Poison Mancer, Curious on a few questions...

Disposition

Diabloii.Net Member
I plan to go :

20Dagger
20Explosion
20 Nova
20 Golem Mastery
1 Summon Res
1 All Curses
1 Teeth
1 CE

I've never built a poison mancer before, HC Untwinked especially so where i'm curious is... Is it worth it to use the 4 extra points to get to fire golem or should I stick with clay?
 

Baltha

Diabloii.Net Member
I went with Iron Golem over Fire Golem with my poisonmancer, but ended up using Clay Golem a lot more. I also went 20 on Corpse Explosion instead of Golem Mastery: CE gives awesome killing speed and a way to deal with poison immunes.
 
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srrw

Diabloii.Net Member
20 Dagger
20 Explosion
20 Nova
20 CE
1 Clay, Mastery, Summon Resist
1 All Curses (Skip Attract and Confuse if you don't plan to use them)
1+ Amplify Damage [top choice, better CE damage, better Merc damage]
or
1+ Lower Resists [second choice, PN damage]
or
1+ Dim Vision [safety option 1]
or
1+ Confuse [safety option 2]

Or some mix of the above, whatever suites your gameplay more.

Edit:
Fire Golem is more or less useless
Iron Golem is only truly useful for Insight carry
Grumpy is god
 
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Disposition

Diabloii.Net Member
I thought that 1CE would be fine as +skills would increase radius while +20GM would give me better survive-ability?

I plan to use attract, read a guide that used it and said it was better than any other skill.
 

LozHinge the Unhinged

Diabloii.Net Member
Attract is a life saver for a non-skelly necromancer. True fact.

Far more reliable than Confuse, which doesn't always work. Dim Vision is the other life saver.

For safety, nothing beats a Clay Golem. Fire Golem is a menace, as his agro-aura attracts monsters before you are ready for them.
 

Disposition

Diabloii.Net Member
Yea, that's pretty much waht I read but where I don't know to go I guess is 20GM or 20CE, I feel like 20GM would give me way more survive ability and I don't think it would really slow my killspeed down, you still only need 1-2 corpses to start causing mahyem.
 

Baltha

Diabloii.Net Member
It's actually safer to max CE because the radius will improve dramatically, letting you kill monsters off-screen. You have to be really close to the monsters while you are nova-ing.

Oh, and get Block.
 

LozHinge the Unhinged

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm biased against CE, I just don't like it but I realise I am in the minority here. It will make you a faster killer but for my money, with 20 in CE, you'll be a corpse exploder with a poison back-up. For poison immunes, you'll be relying on your merc, either for PsnI's or for first corpses, depending.

My last poisonmancer was a full Trang-Ouls with, for S&Gs, a cold wolf merc. It was a lot of fun to play, a lot : o )
 

ffs

Diabloii.Net Member
For an untwinked playthrough CE might not be the first skill to max, but it deals massive damage irrespective of gear. There's no other skill like that and to me it's probably the single most OP skill in the game, I'd max it on every Necro at some point. The way I see it any Necro build is only different in how to get the first corpse for CE..
 

logoutzero

Diabloii.Net Member
The only reason you would really care for a golem to have such high staying power (i.e. 20 points in Mastery) is if using Iron Golem, and you don't want to burn through items as fast.

Clay golem's life and regen get HUGE in Hell. No matter which you use, if it dies, just recast it! If it survives 3 seconds or 30 or indefinitely, you'll most likely want to position him anyway, so it likely won't make a difference. I'd use those points elsewhere. Bigger Amp radius, bigger CE radius, lower resistances, or even skellies (for use as a mobile bone-wall) I think would all be more useful than those points would be in mastery.

[/.02]
 

Viva04

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm biased against CE, I just don't like it but I realise I am in the minority here. It will make you a faster killer but for my money, with 20 in CE, you'll be a corpse exploder with a poison back-up. For poison immunes, you'll be relying on your merc, either for PsnI's or for first corpses, depending.

My last poisonmancer was a full Trang-Ouls with, for S&Gs, a cold wolf merc. It was a lot of fun to play, a lot : o )
I dont like it as well! I never used it on any nec so far just because it is so op. Glad to see someone else not liking it too.
 

LozHinge the Unhinged

Diabloii.Net Member
That doesn't make any sense. Is a Fishymancer a corpse exploder with a summon back-up? Is a LS/DS trapper a corpse exploder with a lightning back-up?
Yes.

A Fishymancer uses skellies/merc to gain the first few corpses and then blows the rest of the screen up. I won't comment on LS/DS trapper as I have yet to play one, but it seems likely to be a similar case. If most of your kills come from CE, you are an exploder, the same way that a blizz-baller is a Blizzard sorc with a FB back-up for CIs. She is not a FB'er with a Blizzard back-up, is she?

I have played Summoner and poison necs, I've even played a golemancer to Pat. I used skellies, poison and a golem/merc combo, respectively, to beat the game, all without CE. I've played a bonemancer to Pat, without CE. He used bone spear/spirits to kill. Immunes were dealt with using the merc.

Any nec with a CE that covers a good part of the screen, is an exploder first and foremost. It's the primary source of damage. If you enjoy blowing things up, or if kill speed is important to you, fair play. This is not slight, by the way.

My background is mostly playing the game by questing with slightly under-powered, restricted or themed builds, that's my enjoyment. Some enjoy doing runs asap and finding the grail - that's good too, the game is big enough for all.
 

Baltha

Diabloii.Net Member
No!

Let's say the merc is dead. What happens to the poisonmancer / CE if he finds an unbreakable poison immune? He sucks because he can't kill anything. What happens when he finds an unbreakable fire/physical immune? He shrugs and kill him with poison.

If you like to play with slightly under-powered, restricted or themed builds, that's fine. But I don't think that's the case of the thread opener. And not using CE because it's not thematic.... that's not a sound advice, just subjective opinion. I can't argue about what you find thematic. But who needs help to come up with an under-powered themed build, anyway?
 
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LozHinge the Unhinged

Diabloii.Net Member
No!

Let's say the merc is dead. What happens to the poisonmancer / CE if he finds an unbreakable poison immune? He sucks because he can't kill anything. What happens when he finds an unbreakable fire/physical immune? He shrugs and kill him with poison.

If you like to play with slightly under-powered, restricted or themed builds, that's fine. But I don't think that's the case of the thread opener. And not using CE because it's not thematic.... that's not a sound advice, just subjective opinion.
I completely agree that CE is not thematic for a Summonancer or a Poisonmancer. And I believe that there was zero chance, bearing in mind my comments as a whole, that the OP would be influenced against CE by my opinion of it. Indeed, upon reading my posts, the OP would conclude that CE means a more efficient killer.

It's my opinion that any necro that relies on CE for most of his killing is an Exploder/other skill hybrid, with a heavy accent on Exploder. It's an opinion though, neither correct nor incorrect ... but it does have a ring of truth about it. If you don't see it that way, that's OK.
 

Baltha

Diabloii.Net Member
Don't get me wrong @LozHinge the Unhinged . I play a lot of pen and paper roleplaying games. I'm familiar with the notion of making thematic builds. But how deep you go with the theme vs how mechanically powerful is the character is a matter of opinion. Some people go 100% thematic, lore themes even if that makes the character mechanically worse, and that's fine. Other people, me included, prefer to go 75% theme if that makes the character more powerful. And that's fine too.
 

LozHinge the Unhinged

Diabloii.Net Member
While I get the principle, playing a necro without CE is like playing a barb without BO (or FI, now that CtAs fall from the sky)... you just took their best advantage over another class and removed it from their arsenal...
Yes I did. I dropped the over-powered, kill-screenfulls-of-enemies skill and now have to rely on wits, strategy, gg curses and a powerful army/poison skill. I play the game cos it is difficult, not because it is easy : o )

The game is big enough that we can all play the way we want to - naked/bling'd, single-tree/hybrid, self-found/twinked. Whatever we want.
 

logoutzero

Diabloii.Net Member
(...)@logoutzero

I didn't know his life and regen went up loads in hell without skills, appreciate that info. :)
I don't know how accurate it is these days (I'm pretty sure it was written for 1.10 final, memories fade) but according to the Necromancer Pet Calculator:
  • 1 point in Clay Golem and Golem Mastery, in Normal: 120 life, 2.1 regen per second.
  • 1 point each, in Hell: 330 life, 6 regen
  • 1 point each with +4 all skills, in Normal: 480 life, 8.7 regen
  • 1 point each +4 skills, Hell: 1320 life, 24.1 regen
  • 1/1 and +12 skills Normal: 1872/34.2
  • 1/1 and +12 in Hell: 5148/94.2
For comparison:
  • 1 point in Clay, 20 Mastery, in Normal: 500 life, 9.1 regen
  • 1/20, Hell: 1375/25.1
  • 1/20, +4, Normal: 1392/25.4
  • 1/20, +4, Hell: 3828/70
  • 1/20 +12 Normal: 3847/70.4
  • 1/20 +12 Hell: 10582/193.7
Play around with that calculator a bit, I think you'll see that the 19 extra points don't make as big of a difference as you might think, especially once +skills get involved.

Edit: Sorted the bullets to make more sense...
 
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