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Magic Finding Inquiry

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by FireChoice, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. FireChoice

    FireChoice IncGamers Member

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    Magic Finding Inquiry

    I just found a Tal's armor in the pit Mfing with my bone necro (60% MF), and I gladly put it on my sorceress to give her a total of 573% MF on switch, but looking at the ATMA drop calculator, my chances for finding natalyia's mark from Pindleskin actually went down with more magic find... Is this right or is ATMA just calculating it incorrectly???
     
  2. tenaka

    tenaka IncGamers Member

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    You're right that is odd. I just checked and got the same result. I guess its possible that the chance of finding a unique going up (yes I know there isnt one, and it becomes a rare) effectivly makes a set harder but I didn't think it worked that way. Might want to post this in the ATMA sticky thread where Hakai is more likely to see it. He can at least tell you if theres a problem with the calculator if not explain the whole pheonomenon.
     
  3. Hrus

    Hrus IncGamers Member

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    I think that Tenaka is right here, you have higher chance for failed unique thus lesser chance for set item.
     
  4. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    I thought the game checked for uniques first, then sets, then rares...this sounds extremely weird...and I always thought more was better:)
     
  5. Llathias

    Llathias Banned

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    it does check for uniques first, then sets, then rares, then magic. with more MF, you're more likely to get a unique, thus less set, which comes after. however, since there's no unique of the item type (item type is determined before the unique/set/rare/magic roll), it will be a failed unique, that is, a rare with 3x durability. failed sets, on the other hand, become magic with 3x durability, IIRC.
     
  6. Thrugg

    Thrugg IncGamers Member

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    I can explain this if you like but it is pretty complicated.

    It could be summarised simply (and imprecisely) as tenaka first guessed, but that leaves part of it out.

    There is actually a cap on MF. Or rather, there is a cap on how much MF can improve your odds by (not exactly the same thing). This cap is known but doesn't get talked about much because it is on a per-quality basis, and it is unreachable for uniques (you need about 2200 MF to hit it).
    However, you hit the cap at around the 550-580 mark for sets (it is also dependent on base item qlvl).

    So what is happening here is that with Tal's armour, FireChoice's sorc is hitting the cap for sets, and so his set chance isn't increasing while the chance of not getting a unique is decreasing.

    Chimaira is correct that the game checks uniques first then sets, etc. Normally as you increase MF, the chance of a unique goes up, so the chance of it being anything besides unique (including set) goes down. However, since set MF diminishes slower than unique MF, the downward effect of higher unique chance is more than made up for by the upward effect of increased set chance. Up until the cap, where suddenyl the set chance doesn't increase at all any more with increased MF, so you see what we are seeing here.

    Or, putting it in the simplest terms I can, Atma is right ;)
     
  7. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    Yes!!! Thrugg said I was correct...no higher honour can be bestowed:)

    One thing...Is Llhatias correct when he says that a failed unique becomes a rare.. because fairness (and perhaps) logic would indicate that it would become a set, since sets are checked for first. I would feel rather cheated if my failed unique Laqcuered Plate became a crap rare Laqcuered Plate...ehrm I mean 35k gold.
     
  8. bill_n_opus

    bill_n_opus IncGamers Member

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    That made pretty good sense to me ... do I get a sticker? :jig:
     
  9. tenaka

    tenaka IncGamers Member

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    Yes, failed uniques become rares. Not because rares are next in line but because they become rares. Its just how Bliz decided to handle rolling a unique when none exists. If you want to see all the math that goes along with Thruggs explanation of my simplified guess Hakai explains it here or simply put: Joo gots to muhch emm eff!
     
  10. Thrugg

    Thrugg IncGamers Member

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    Rares originally were next in order after uniques. The original conception of rares was that they should be more powerful than sets but less than uniques (which is by and large true when you consider the pre-LoD sets). But they broke that a bit at a time by adding new, much stronger sets, and at the same time nerfing rares (though they did un-nerf them a fair bit in 1.10).

    Then they realised that people sought sets more than rares, so they swapped them around - just not everywhere in the code.
     
  11. Llathias

    Llathias Banned

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    also, if the game were to try to get sets instead of failed uniques, there'd be a high chance that the set didn't exist too, so it'd have to downgrade twice (especially before all the expansion sets came out). i guess it's to get the item in the second roll at most, since every item can be rare or magic. (well, not runes, but they can't be anything else as well, which is the reason they're unaffected by MF).
     
  12. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    So the age old question "how much MF should i wear" can be answered as "about 580 if your looking for set items, or as much as possible if your looking for uniques" right?
    :jig: hehe, the jig smilie, great for all occasions.
     
  13. FireChoice

    FireChoice IncGamers Member

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    I've been fooling around with this for a bit, looking over some of the different high level sets and uniques, and for the most part, adding MF is better, 270 MF gives the best possible chances to find Nat's Mark (1/8886) While 573 MF gives (1/8967) this is just a little more than 1 percent difference, and the benefit of finding more uniques and more of certain set items outweighs this in my opinion. Interesting that the optimum number would be so low. The optimum for IK armour is higher than this however. I think I'll stick away from just MFing for one item for now. By the way, I found a windforce and a warshrike just recently :)
    I guess doing hundreds and hundreds (going to shoot for 5000 a month) Pindle runs pays off. I actually don't see how windforce is so good.... I put it on my necro's Fire Arrow merc!
     
  14. Hakai_no_Tenshi

    Hakai_no_Tenshi IncGamers Member

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    Blasphemy !

    Another mitigating factor is that you need significantly less MF in 1.10 to achieve the same results in 1.09

    --T
     
  15. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    Cool. Is she performing well with it? Any socket in it? Any extra IAS from helm/armor?

    I am just curious to know, because the damage from a Windforce clearly beats that from the Cruel elite bows my rogues tend to end up with.
     
  16. HBeachBabe

    HBeachBabe IncGamers Member

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    my understanding was that the game checked for unique status then set then rare etc. independantly not as a piece of a whole. that is, that it's not like there is a scale of 1 to 100 and a a roll of 100 is a unique, 90-99 is a set, 80-89 is a rare, 50-79 is magic and 1-49 is normal (and thus increasing the chance on uniques would thus cut into the chance for a set) but that there was x% chance an item was unique, y% chance for it to be a set, z% chance for it to be rare and xx% chance for magic with each checked individually. so more MF does increase the chance of set items but only once you get passed the increased chance of it being unique

    if you look at a theoretical 1000 found items with say 5% chance for unique and 10% chance for set you'll win up first with:
    50 uniques (5% of 1000 items)
    this leaves 950 to be checked for sets, 10% of which is 95 but 95 is only 9.5% of 1000

    now increase uniques to 15% and sets to 20%
    15% of 1000=150 uniques
    20% of 850 remaining=170 set 170/1000=17% of all items will be sets

    so increasing the overall MF increases the chance of uniques doesn't "cut into" the chance of an item being a set, it just leaves fewer items to be checked for being a set
     
  17. FireChoice

    FireChoice IncGamers Member

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    My merc is doing pretty good. I wish I knew what the rogue speed breakpoints were'. The bow is shaeled, and she is using an ethereal black hades chaos armor with 3 jewels of fervor in it as well as Tal's helm with a jewel of fervor. I am contemplating using an amn rune in the bow if it wouldn't make a difference.
     
  18. Thrugg

    Thrugg IncGamers Member

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    Well, an act 1 merc is a rogue not an amazon, but wish granted anyway :)

    Act 1 merc with Hydra Bow
    IAS fpa
    0 % 17
    5 % 16
    11 % 15
    22 % 14
    34 % 13
    50 % 12
    78 % 11
    120 % 10
    215 % 9

    Windforce has 20 natively, 4 Fervour jewels gives you 60 more making the total 80 which just reaches the 11 fpa BP. The extra Shael is doing nothing.
    Amn away.
     
  19. FireChoice

    FireChoice IncGamers Member

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    Nice' Thanks man. Can you give me the resource you used to find this out?
     
  20. Hakai_no_Tenshi

    Hakai_no_Tenshi IncGamers Member

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    The German weapon speed calculator webpage has it .. do a google search

    --T
     

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