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Magic find--My thoughts

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Toetag, Jul 17, 2010.

  1. Toetag

    Toetag IncGamers Member

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    Magic find--My thoughts

    As it is with MF, the creature you kill will drop whatever based on how much MF you have at the time of the kill. But wouldn't it make more sense to say that the creature should randomly generate what it will drop on it at the time it spawns? With this in mind, shouldn't Blizz do away with MF and start a more "drop-rate" based style for finding items?
     
  2. psyadam

    psyadam IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    No magic find was awesome and should not be messed with.
     
  3. whorhay

    whorhay IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    While what you say makes sense in terms of reality it wouldn't make sense in a computer game. In most games the items a mob is carrying doesn't affect the behavior, characteristics, or the danger in general a mob poses. So there is no advantage in predetermining what a mob will drop when killed. Doing the math to figure out each mobs loot before the game even knows if the mob is going to die takes up CPU cycles that could be doing something else. And keeping track of that information until it's no longer needed, when you close the game or kill the mob, takes up memory. So the game might as well just figure out what loot you get when a mob dies and save on system resources.

    The only two games I've played to date that did what you suggest were Fallout 3 and Ever Quest. In both games the items a mob had in it's inventory mattered because you could pickpocket them, and the mob could use them against you. In EQ this lead to some problems because initially the game server would include the mobs loot information in the data it sent to each players computer. So people would set up a packet sniffer to get this information. They got a lot more information than just the loot but it enabled people to only go after the high value mobs, and in fact you could enter a zone and immediately know if it was worth your time to go and kill whatever rare spawns were present.
     
  4. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    Psyadam, from all your post I belive you want D3 to be D2.1 , All your posts are "No! That feature was Great in D2! It must remain the same!" .... Sorry to dissapoint you but no, D2 was full of design issues that need to be looked at. TPs, Potionspam and others are being looked at. MF is not safe from it because it DID generate issues.


    MF is being tuned, Jay Wilson said that no longer people will be able to hoard MF without consequences.

    MF was a issue because the moment something enhances the main aspect of addiction of the game, which is the hope of finding better loot, it becomes a priority over things that make your character a more interesting and stronger class rather than a mod that serves nothing more than increase your chances on a slot-machine. It was way too convenient and made certain classes that could gimp themselves in order to hoard MF to be the prefered class over everyone else (Sorceress... and 1.10 Hammerdins).



    Plus it seems there are new types of MF. Extra chances of finding gems/runes/items seems to be in.

    I would rather to have them remove MF completely. In a chance based game anything that improves your chance will be prefered over anything else but the design team on D3 has plans to control it, maybe its only used on the talisman system which means its only a bonus and not on a weapon/armor mod.
     
  5. phaolo

    phaolo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    Hey, currently the game can randomly generate what the monsters will drop simply when they are killed.
    Removing MF means just to cancel it from the drop formula: there's no need to apply much more changes in the system (except for the item attributes).

    I like the idea of a fixed MF for all (probably it will be only based on character and monster level).
     
  6. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    I don't like MF for many reasons. My main problem with it is that it turns the whole game into an item hunting metagame, where I hunt for items with MF just so I can find items that I can't use, because using them would reduce my MF and consequently make it harder for me to find more of those items that I can't use, etc etc.

    In other words, it moves character progression away from using items to just finding them, because there's really no reason not to wear MF most of the time. Instead of wearing the most badass gear you have, which would've been the logical thing to do in any RPG where you're fighting evil, you instead end up downgrading your gear in favor of a stat that quite literally has no positive effect on your character's performance. It's counter-intuitive and devalues much of the items that should be more useful but aren't because hey - they don't have any MF.

    It also adds a ton of exploit-related issues because drops aren't calculated until a monster is killed or chest is opened, meaning you can swap your gear around to have as much MF as possible for those situations, adding a lot of frustration and tedium in the process. It's just one of those things that people really shouldn't do but end up doing anyway because drop rates are so low that people will start doing anything to improve their chances.

    Naturally, I can see the why the developers like MF: the nature of the stat promotes self-balancing, in that players will normally try to wear as much MF as possible and thus nerf their own stats accordingly, which makes the game more challenging without the developers having to rebalance the game. Great - it helps fight one of the greatest design issues ARPG devs face: to create a level of difficulty that can house both "weak" players and "strong" players without being too hard or too easy on either of them (the higher the difficulty setting the wider the delta between those players becomes).

    I can also see why some players like MF, because in a game that mainly revolves around finding rare items, having a stat that directly affects the drop rates of said items may seem like a good idea. But in reality it doesn't really matter because the drop rates can easily be changed by the developers so you get as many items without the MF. The reason I say this is because I've seen some people argue that "I wouldn't like having MF removed because it means I'll get fewer items" which is a pretty silly argument but whatever.

    Anyways, ways to solve this? I believe Jay shares some of my concerns and I do recall him saying he wanted MF back, but not the MF we know from D2. So perhaps we might see it as highly a limited stat not found on conventional items, but rather on shrines, perhaps skills and such (Kiroptus mentioned the talisman, which I'd say is a good bet).
     
  7. kavlor

    kavlor IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    I think Ive said this in another thread but I say item hunting needs to be balanced with gameplay.FPS's get by without the need for 1000's of items which means there is room for a balance and Im not talking about taking item hunting away but I think pure item hunting is unhealthy for the mind and games should be about challenging you not about satisfying greed.
     
  8. phaolo

    phaolo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    -Moonfrost
    Nice explanation :)

    -kavlor
    Well, I agree, D2 really was a slot machine..
    Character training should be connected to quests instead of depending from infinite boss\area replays.
    (However, I love to collect items with decent drops rates, so I cannot imagine playing without a permanent big stash or an Atma-like program)
     
  9. pcguy

    pcguy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    I want to get really amazing loot by cooperating with other players to complete specific challenges. I believe quests will offer nice items in exchange for completing specific goals.

    I believe the quest system represents a better way to find magical items because it offers a more targeted approach to item acquisition.

    The Magic Find in Diablo II left much up to a random number generator, and it was difficult to find a particular item you were looking for without doing tons of runs.

    The instruction, "Do X runs, earn an item" is more suitable to quests, and in my opinion, a much more desirable system in terms of what it means for player motivation and cooperative game play.

    The instruction, "Do runs until an item appears, the amount of runs is not limited" is less conducive to cooperative play because the absence of some type of deadline or limit on the amount of run can act as a deterrent to a player who may be in the quest just to help a friend.

    My rationale:
    In Diablo II, I want to help my friend get Tal Rasha's armor. All I can do, really, is fight alongside him until Tal Rasha's armor drops. I have no idea how long I have to do this. I know that both of us will need magic find, and we will have to fight in an area where monsters can drop that particular piece of armor. Because there is no clearly defined start and end to the search, and no objectives other than, "Find Tal Rasha's armor" eventually, I will get bored and want to move on to something else.

    In Diablo III, I want to help my friend get Elite Legendary armor. I know if I help my friend clear a difficult quest, he will be rewarded with said armor. I will help my friend knowing that when we complete the quest, he will be awarded. I have an incentive to play for a longer amount of time helping my friend, assuming said quest can be completed in a reasonable amount of time and is engaging or challenging. The quest is no longer, "Find the armor" it is now, "Do X, Y, Z, for a period of time and you will be rewarded with the armor."
     
  10. Shagsbeard

    Shagsbeard IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    Your suggestion that D3 should be a co-op game is going to piss off a whole lot of players who detest play like this. There's plenty of room for co-op play in games, but no game should rely on it... not any game that wants my money.



     
  11. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    Jay Wilson already said that Diablo 3 is being heavily focused on coop btw. Solo play is possible but the game is now more tuned to be a multiplayer coop game.
     
  12. Kurtis

    Kurtis IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    Ill tell you why I liked D2s solo style so much.

    I play Halo on xbox very competitively (recently won national champs in NZ), it fully focuses on team work as you work in four man teams. This can become very stressful, because you are constantly worrying if you are doing well enough. It is also stressful because if your team mates **** up, you loose and it wasnt your fault. (its also stressful because of lag but thats a different story)

    I am now getting back into D2 for like the 5th time now, because its just such a lax game. You dont need to rely on others, you dont need to worry about your performance, you dont need to organize practice schedules or meeting times to do this that and the other. You can just come home after a busy day and just lax out, killing monsters and finding items which is a really nice bonus, makes the game pretty enjoyable IMO.

    If they turn D3 into a WoW style you-are-shooting-yourself-in-the-foot-if-you-dont-play-coop thing, ima be pissed off. I think D2 had it perfect, where if you played together everything was harder, and you had a slightly increased chance at better items, but it didnt make it hugely more advantageous over playing alone. You could still play by yourself and do just as well and two people playing.

    MF should be in, but not on every item! this is where the downfall is. I think maybe only jewely and charms should add magic find, then maybe shrines and stuff can add temporary buffs on top of that. But no MF on armour and weapons etc. This way you can slightly limit yourself for increased MF, but you dont have to full **** yourself over or anything
     
  13. Kingu

    Kingu IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    And I think you are overreacting. I see it, they focus on coop, so it is better chance for a good coop with random people, unlike it is in D2. And it can't be wow style, as D3 don't have Wow class roles like (tank, nuke, healer, and rest), every one here is just dps in one way or another.

    But I agree with you MF idea.
     
  14. Pyrohemia

    Pyrohemia IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    All that MF needs is balance. Suppose that the absolute highest MF bonus you could acquire, going all out on MF gear, was 100%. The killing speed loss would make this useless and players would use balanced gear with a slight preference for MF if available. Suppose that the MF stat was also properly spread around items types and functions rather than dramatically favoring casters. I think that MF could be balanced and work well, or it could even be nerfed to the power level of +to light radius. All that it takes is careful design and itemization.
     
  15. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    I would prefer one of these two:

    1) MF being restricted to shrines, quest rewards, the talisman and such, so as to not conflict the gear that makes the biggest impact on your character's looks and performance (weapons/armor).
    2) MF having a hard cap (e.g. 50%) that's fairly easy to hit, letting players improve drop rates but still have plenty of room for customization.

    To put things in perspective, Titan Quest had no MF and I can't say I missed it. Moreover, it also introduced a skill bonus cap of +4, meaning that skills could only be boosted to 4 levels higher than their hard point cap (in D2 this would be slvl 20/24). While this last part is somewhat OT, I wouldn't mind seeing some hard caps in D3 that discourage people from stacking MF, +skills or other, similar stats.
     
  16. greyskin

    greyskin IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    I've allways thought that one of the biggest problems with MF in D2 was that it didn't gimp you enough. There simply was too many of the best items that included MF.

    The challenge as I see it should be to still be able to kill monsters with a character with a lower damage output, maybe lower defences as well, and then reep the rewards by gaining better loot. But in D2 this simply wasn't the case as you could easily stock up on MF with out lowering our damage output much.

    One way to solve this could be to make damage and MF go hand in hand, so that if you had 20 % mf you would also have 20% less damage to deal out. This I am sure will never be implemented, but it would solve the issue with trying to make items with MF weak enough to make it challenging.

    If it should be 20% to 20% or 200% to 20% I don't know, that depends on the way they choose to implement MF I guess. But I think for me the most important thing in order to make MF make sense is to make sure that you gimp yourself by using it.
     
  17. Zeek

    Zeek IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    No way. IMO that makes the game solely reward time spent playing the game. Obviously that's the goal in a subscription based game. I just hate the idea that the only way to be the best is to spend the most time playing the game. Sorry but I don't have the time to devote to a videogame.

    In D2 the more time you spend you're far more likely to have the best gear. It is not a given however. There is a lottery aspect to the game and some guy who plays 1 hour a week could find a zod. I like that aspect of D2. You feel a sense of amazement and luck with a great item drops. Not just a sense of "there finally I did run #X". That's how I feel when I reach level 90. There are you happy I did a kajillion baal runs can I have my skill point now? That's not fun. That's a grind.



     
  18. ThomasJ

    ThomasJ IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    Leave magic find alone. It worked just fine for over 10 years. No need to change everything if it isn't broken.
     
  19. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    i rather they remove magic find all together personally. it makes no sense at all in a roleplaying world imo. how can an item you have increase the chances that a mob you are killing will drop a better item? i dont know, if it is in the game (will be) i wont mind but i rather not have it.
     
  20. Zeek

    Zeek IncGamers Member

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    Re: Magic find--My thoughts

    Yeah it's obviously going to be in the game, but like someone said there's talk of magic find for gems and specific item types like that. So, maybe they can make it along the lines of resists. Give you 4 categories and put a cap on them. Maybe just something like 75% max. Then there's no reason to dump all your gear just for mf gear. You can only get to 75% and then you might as well focus on other bonuses.



     

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