Magic find leeching?

Ishtor

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

I am sure with this new system, MF will only effect your drops and not the other players. I am sure that is one of the reason blizzard is changing this method, so everyone gets the loot they deserve, and the people with the better MF would be the one to get the better chance to get the better loot.
 

5zigen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

I am sure with this new system, MF will only effect your drops and not the other players. I am sure that is one of the reason blizzard is changing this method, so everyone gets the loot they deserve, and the people with the better MF would be the one to get the better chance to get the better loot.
the problem with that system is that a leecher with high mf doing nothing will get better loot than one doing a majority of the killing with no MF. While it kind of makes sense, it runs counter to the idea of distributing loot to who deserves it.



 

stillman

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

That's really assuming that it will be profitable for a high level (lootwise and expwise) to solo in a max player game. If the balance is done right, soloing in multiplayer games will likely be more difficult in that is in D2, at least that is one solution I see to this problem.
One solution is to actually give the bosses so much health that no one, regardless of end game gear and build, can kill the last boss or two in 5 minutes like in d2. Of course, some would complain this is killing their boss farming experience. It also raises a problem of the boss taking an hour to kill when you arrive there first time in the natural storyline. Anyway, if the bosses had enough health, everyone would gain by doing their share of damage to the boss to quicken it up. Hence, leechers would be unliked.

It looks like no matter what Blizzard does with this there's going to be issues. Hope for the least silly issue.

Vinke07, the problem is Blizzard likes to 'encourage' partying up so in d2, we get more exp AND fewer no-drop rolls (i.e. more drops) for having more players around. Making a private game right there lessens the amount of loot that drops. Blizzard may or may not do something similar for d3.


 

Es Mors

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

That's really assuming that it will be profitable for a high level (lootwise and expwise) to solo in a max player game. If the balance is done right, soloing in multiplayer games will likely be more difficult in that is in D2, at least that is one solution I see to this problem.
Well, some sense of achievement should be in the game, and I think it highly unlikely that there won't be a possibility to become "uber" in Diablo 3. Remember all the hardcore players who will do nothing, but play all day long.


 

Kiroptus

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

Still, no player should really have the power to solo 8ppl game, its a serious design flaw in D2. In a max number of player difficult it should not be possible to solo, maybe crawl through a level but with a lot of difficult unlike what happens in D2 with Enigma + Hammerdins.
 

Galtrovan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

Most everyone is looking at this in terms of all the flaws introduced into D2: LOD. Magic find in D2: Classic amounted to a max MF in the 230ish range. LOD went overboard and allowed 1000%+, which didn't even have diminishing returns at launch (oops!). Add to that all the new, powerful items which made the game a joke -- allowing a single person to solo an 8 player game.

If there is an MF affix in D3, and the designers allow 1000%+ MF and a single person to solo a full game then they have learned nothing and failed.

Bottom line in my book:
- MF should be random affix that has a chance to spawn on items
- MF affix values should be balanced so that if a player decides to collect a set of gear where each and every item worn has an MF affix, the total MF% is manageable/balanced
- In a full game, if everyone but one person stands around doing nothing, everyone should get their asses handed to them not be rewarded with loot
 

sicilian

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

One solution is to actually give the bosses so much health that no one, regardless of end game gear and build, can kill the last boss or two in 5 minutes like in d2. Of course, some would complain this is killing their boss farming experience. It also raises a problem of the boss taking an hour to kill when you arrive there first time in the natural storyline. Anyway, if the bosses had enough health, everyone would gain by doing their share of damage to the boss to quicken it up. Hence, leechers would be unliked.

It looks like no matter what Blizzard does with this there's going to be issues. Hope for the least silly issue.

Vinke07, the problem is Blizzard likes to 'encourage' partying up so in d2, we get more exp AND fewer no-drop rolls (i.e. more drops) for having more players around. Making a private game right there lessens the amount of loot that drops. Blizzard may or may not do something similar for d3.
How about this... As more players join the game, the tactics of the Bosses (where the best loot would theoretically come from) would change. They would start to summon minions, or use more AoE attacks, or would be set to focus on players who aren't using their abilities, etc. That way, leechers would need to be able to at least kill the minions to keep them off of the main character doing the Boss killing.

I'm not sure I like the idea of making boss battles much longer. Longer definitely, and certainly more involved. but not in a way that makes them a time sink.


 

mouseman

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

Why are you all so sure that there's going to be magic find mod in Diablo 3?

The issue isn't that bad, though. Now we have weaker characters leeching AND stealing probably ALL the loot from the killing players. Now it's just more equal.

But I think the loot quality will depend on the character level. If you get rushed by a level 50 character, he will get loot for lvl 50 character, but you will only get loot for lvl 20 character because that's your level, and so on. This would solve some of the problems mentioned above.
 

Akse

Banned
Re: Magic find leeching?

I'm not sure if it fast to kill any boss in D3. It would probably take some time to get to the boss this time rather than just teleport 30 seconds. You would have to beat all the monsters on the way to the boss and the monsters and bosses would be more challenging this time in a full game even with good gear.

So after all these the player with good gear and level would probably get frustrated of keeping the leechers with him.
 

Telzen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

^ There is no 'unpartying'. You are in the party as soon as you join someone's game, or when someone joins your game. Blizzard said the party screen was just an unnecessary step they don't want us to go through and they want to strongly encourage co-op play.
I believe they said joining a party was an unnecessary step, not the screen itself. While you are put in the group when you join I'm sure you can leave it after if you want.

I am sure with this new system, MF will only effect your drops and not the other players. I am sure that is one of the reason blizzard is changing this method, so everyone gets the loot they deserve, and the people with the better MF would be the one to get the better chance to get the better loot.
This is what I figured. I don't remember how it is in D2, but in D3 only your own MF should effect what drops for you. As for it being abused, we just need a way to vote kick someone from a party. If it was up to me though, MF wouldn't be in the game.



 

Starving_Poet

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

the leeching problem could be alleviated if the 'value' (see below) of the loot received is tied to the ratio of damage done / monster HP.

So, ignoring whether or not there will be an MF mod:
you have 4 people - one guy that does 50% , 1 guy that does 25%, 2 guys that do 12.5% of the damage.

The heavy hitter will get 4x (amount / combined ilevel / whatever mechanism you choose) as much loot as the 12.5% hitters, etc and so forth.
 

Es Mors

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

the leeching problem could be alleviated if the 'value' (see below) of the loot received is tied to the ratio of damage done / monster HP.

So, ignoring whether or not there will be an MF mod:
you have 4 people - one guy that does 50% , 1 guy that does 25%, 2 guys that do 12.5% of the damage.

The heavy hitter will get 4x (amount / combined ilevel / whatever mechanism you choose) as much loot as the 12.5% hitters, etc and so forth.
Very unlikely that this will happen, seeing how Blizzard wants to encourage party play, and this would do the opposite.

The only way to solve this, as I see it, is to balance the game so more players = hard enough so that all players have to pitch in. Unless it is possible for hardcore players to become "godly", which brings a lot of problems.


 

Wolfgang Abenteuer

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

How about this: Player that kills the mob gets full benefit of his MF, the other players get maybe half that, or maybe even divide it by the number of players in the game. That way, unless the guy with MF gear deals the deathblow, nobody gets MF benefit. Would prevent leeching at least. *shrugs*
 

KillaMike

Banned
Re: Magic find leeching?

reading thro most of posts ( too lazy to read all ) the problem is that you saying there should be 3 fully mfed chars and 1 killing... think of this this way:

1 barb with AWESOME GEAR

3 sorc with AWESOME MF GEAR

3 sorc cast staticks each 1 time....

and they kill quite a lot with staticks...

not kill but do nice blows, and staticks dont requere lods of mana

any way, i am geniuly dont see problem with that

same story with Uber Leveling, i find it time saving, yes i like compliting game, but after having 20 chars of each class it becaomes boring

(20 chars of each class = 140 games + 3 difficulties = 420 games + you doing it 2-5 time ( baal runs ) its about 1000 games of same thing, isnt that boring after some time? :-S )
 

Es Mors

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

reading thro most of posts ( too lazy to read all ) the problem is that you saying there should be 3 fully mfed chars and 1 killing... think of this this way:

1 barb with AWESOME GEAR

3 sorc with AWESOME MF GEAR

3 sorc cast staticks each 1 time....

and they kill quite a lot with staticks...

not kill but do nice blows, and staticks dont requere lods of mana

any way, i am geniuly dont see problem with that

same story with Uber Leveling, i find it time saving, yes i like compliting game, but after having 20 chars of each class it becaomes boring

(20 chars of each class = 140 games + 3 difficulties = 420 games + you doing it 2-5 time ( baal runs ) its about 1000 games of same thing, isnt that boring after some time? :-S )
What I find boring is the whole community doing the same thing, like Baal runs now. If this kind of magic/item find leeching will be possible, as described in this thread it can get much worse than Baal games are now.


 

Galtrovan

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

I fail to see how mine doesn't promote party play.
Your idea fails to promote party play because whoever does the most damage gets the most loot. In your own words, one person gets "4 times as much" which is complete bologna. Why? One example, you and I stand toe to toe with a boss, we are both in harms way, both hit the boss the exact same number of times, but your weapon/skill/class setup can dish out more damage than me -- why should you get more loot than me? I was right there with you. And my damage output being lower than yours could not even my fault. Using a D2 example, you are a Hammerdin spamming hammers and I'm a Barb swinging a Eth, BotD Beserker Axe. My damage output compared to yours is not my fault. Talk to the idiots that balanced the game, or rather completely ignored game balance.



 

Starving_Poet

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

Your idea fails to promote party play because whoever does the most damage gets the most loot. In your own words, one person gets "4 times as much" which is complete bologna. Why? One example, you and I stand toe to toe with a boss, we are both in harms way, both hit the boss the exact same number of times, but your weapon/skill/class setup can dish out more damage than me -- why should you get more loot than me? I was right there with you. And my damage output being lower than yours could not even my fault. Using a D2 example, you are a Hammerdin spamming hammers and I'm a Barb swinging a Eth, BotD Beserker Axe. My damage output compared to yours is not my fault. Talk to the idiots that balanced the game, or rather completely ignored game balance.

You also failed to understand that I didn't specify quantity - there can any sort of modifier - it can be a summation of ilvls, it can be a magic find bonus, it can be anything.

For example a player who does little to no damage can still get the same amount of items, but they'll all be white, or it'll only be health globes.

It's a ratio, friend. If someone does twice as much damage as you, he deserves twice as much. If, in your situation, your buddy does 55% of the damage and you do 45%, then he gets 10% more. It's not like you can see who gets what anyway. This simply solved the problem of people who do no damage getting loot - and it also solves the problem of people running in to get the last hit to get the bonus / loot / whatever - which is a common problem in many online rpgs.

My approach will make it so that everyone in the party will really want to get in on that big boss kill, because if they don't, they won't get anything.

It will really encourage people to party with people of equivalent levels, equivalent abilities.

Of course, you could still be rushed, you'll just have to rely on the kindness of your 'rusher' to trade you the good items he finds.



 

5zigen

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Magic find leeching?

You also failed to understand that I didn't specify quantity - there can any sort of modifier - it can be a summation of ilvls, it can be a magic find bonus, it can be anything.

For example a player who does little to no damage can still get the same amount of items, but they'll all be white, or it'll only be health globes.

It's a ratio, friend. If someone does twice as much damage as you, he deserves twice as much. If, in your situation, your buddy does 55% of the damage and you do 45%, then he gets 10% more. It's not like you can see who gets what anyway. This simply solved the problem of people who do no damage getting loot - and it also solves the problem of people running in to get the last hit to get the bonus / loot / whatever - which is a common problem in many online rpgs.

My approach will make it so that everyone in the party will really want to get in on that big boss kill, because if they don't, they won't get anything.

It will really encourage people to party with people of equivalent levels, equivalent abilities.

Of course, you could still be rushed, you'll just have to rely on the kindness of your 'rusher' to trade you the good items he finds.
your formula does not promote group play. It does have some interesting implications in that players will be competing for loot with each other, which ultimately just sort of sets the clock back to D2 in a way.

Here are the major problems I see with the system:

1) It overvalues instant damage. I am guessing there will be DoT skills in the game, that are probably powerful but take some seconds to kill the enemy. In a group setting, a DoT character would be getting no loot if there was an instant damage character running around whacking anything before the DoT's ticked for much damage. Note that it would also penalize slower skills like meteor and blizzard, which don't do damage immediately.

2) It discourages using debuffs and party buffs. We already know that some will be in the game in the form of time stop and terrify. However, because using these skills doesn't do damage, the person using them will be left out. Even if the person using them can get some damage in, a person using support skills + damage will never do nearly as much as someone who is taking advantage of the support skills but not doing any themselves. For example, take a conviction avenger paladin, paired up with a lightning fury javazon (in d2 terms). The convic paladin is enabling the javazon to do massive amounts of damage, but it is unlikely that he will be able to even attack anything before it's dead. Why should he get not loot?

3) It will be a strong strong incentive for cookie cutter play. It's one thing to do as much damage because you aren't playing the most uber build, but to get penalized in loot because you are not is just another thing altogether.

4) for anything that isn't a boss, it is likely that the fastest character will get all the loot, because likely it isn't going to take a team effort to take down every solitary enemy.

Aside from that, it's a very heavy handed way of allocating loot, and, in the case of non boss kills it is likely to be cumbersome in having to do an extra calculation for every mob that dies.

You MIGHT be able to have some constants in it to account for everything, but in doing so you would either water it down completely, or simply have a formula that is way too complicated because it has to check for damage done plus level difference between party members and monsters, plus every potential party buffing and monster debuffing skill in the game. For that reason, it is likely simply impractical.



 
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