low dex amazon

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

low dex amazon

I'm thinking of building a frost maiden (freezing arrow amazon) and am wondering if the elemental damage always hits regardless of % to hit. In particular, does a pierced arrow's cold hit even if the physical arrow misses? If this is the case, I'm thinking of building a low dex amazon. Obviously I'll be weak against cold immunes but I'm thinking of going with 20 points in immolation arrow without any synergies also.

My plan is to go with a unique bow/xbow (ideal would be wizendraw but right now I only have doomslinger) and put points into mana and health. I'm thinking of taking mana pretty high since freezing arrow is a mana hog but not sure how difficult this will be.

 

[Dacar92]

Freezing arrow has an area of effect that freezes and damages all critters in the range of the effect, as long as the arrow hits. The arrow does not always hit. FA is AR dependant, the spalsh damage is not. Your AR will determnine the chance for the arrow to hit.

Immolation is a slow, timed attack. Timed attacks are a pain. But just because it is a timed attack doesn't mean it is sucky. Immo zons need to use their brain. It will do heaps of damage when used with some strategy. The timer can actually be a good thing, it keeps mana costs down and forces you to make every shot count. But some will say that Blizz broke Immo in 1.07 +. Level 30 Immolation flames do under 200 damage per second even when overlapped does about 500 per second. And of course, they only last 3 seconds, further limiting their effectiveness (and for comparison, Meteor's flames last longer per skill level).


The best attack with FA, IMO, is strafe for PvM. Get some mana leech and at higher levels strafe will fill the mana bulb back up. But with low dex, you may not be able to kill very fast in hell.

Just some thoughts from a "mostly" LOD guy.

 

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

Freezing arrow has an area of effect that freezes and damages all critters in the range of the effect, as long as the arrow hits. The arrow does not always hit. FA is AR dependant, the spalsh damage is not. Your AR will determnine the chance for the arrow to hit.

So the splash damage will always hit right, while the physical and cold damage on the arrow depends on AR, right? And the cacluation is the same for pierced arrows too right? If that is the case, is it fair to simply rely on the splash damage and go with low AR?

I basically have a strafer and she is unviable in hell difficulty IMO (I really don't think there are any non-javazon amazons past a2/hell on bnet ). Even single player games with decent (though not goldy) equipment is too slow and pointless (let's not even talk about 2+ player games). So I'm thinking of going the cold route. I have never used elemental attacks iwth any of my amazons (when I used to play years ago, my #1 skill was multishot but that's even worse than strafe now).

Immolation is a slow, timed attack. Timed attacks are a pain. But just because it is a timed attack doesn't mean it is sucky. Immo zons need to use their brain. It will do heaps of damage when used with some strategy. The timer can actually be a good thing, it keeps mana costs down and forces you to make every shot count. But some will say that Blizz broke Immo in 1.07 +. Level 30 Immolation flames do under 200 damage per second even when overlapped does about 500 per second. And of course, they only last 3 seconds, further limiting their effectiveness (and for comparison, Meteor's flames last longer per skill level).

Immolation was going to be my secondary attack against cold immunes but, you are right, it will be very slow. Even at slvl20, it will be weak without synergies (I don't have points for synergies unless I completely ignore a decent valkyrie or something). Do you have any suggestions for a secondary attack (remember that this is normal diablo 2 so the game difficulty is somewhat different). How about plague javelin or something? Is there anything in the javelin and spear tree that can be used with low AR? The oft-hated impale perhaps?

The best attack with FA, IMO, is strafe for PvM. Get some mana leech and at higher levels strafe will fill the mana bulb back up. But with low dex, you may not be able to kill very fast in hell.

Strafe is a cheaper backup solution for sure. I can just put one point (or at least around 4) and use it (versus 20 for immolation arrow). But the problem is twofold. First of all, even my strafer has problems with damage so this amazon would be even worse. Secondly, going the strafe route requires AR. One of my plans was to completely ignore AR (and dex) and go what d2x guys call mageazon (although I'm not rich enough to own SOJs or stuff like that). Basically go for high mana and have enough to at least fire off a whole hoard of arrows. It'll still be tough on the mana front but I think I can live with it (I just built an avenger (paladin) and am living as a mana drunk who is hooked on mana potions ).

So I don't know. Strafe would really require a more conventional (mana-less) build I think.

I can also look into going no dex but use specialized equipment when fighting cold immunes. For example, use set items that give AR (2 sigon set items + 2 hsaru set + angelic amulet&2rings) for those fights only. This requires a lot of work but would be an interesting way to play with basically 50 dex.



My plan for a low dex build is something like this (feel free to poke holes):

str: min 40 (req for weapon; I think frostburns req 70 so need with items)
dex: min 50 (req for weapon)
vitality: 100+
energy: 150


Key skills:

20 freezing arrow
20 cold arrow
20 immolation arrow
7 valkyrie
3-6 pierce


weapon: doomslinger x-bow (ideally wizendraw if I can source it--dont think anyone keeps this around though)

key items: frostburns, eye of etlich amulet

Other items: rare items tailored towards mana and resists

 

[DougDadyUsWest]

It's tough to build a bowazon without twitch and deaths gloves/belt. I can maybe understand swapping twitch for a mage plate for the life/resists, but it is absolutely essential to have deaths glove/belt for a bowazon.

30ias/life leech/cannot be frozen/+15 resists all is by far the godliest combination of stats that a bowazon will find from those two items.

I'm not sure you need to be overly concerned with Attack Rating for your amazon. FA with pierce has a few chances to hit, and if your a/r gives 50% to hit and you pierce 50% then half the time you will hit every time :wink2: . But seriously, don't worry about a/r too much unless you get to the point where it's the main thing slowing you down. I doubt that it will be, though. All the constant running away from badies and trying to not die will probably be the main concern :shocked: .

If I were you I'd just avoid immolation arrow, it's a waste of 20 points. Those points are much more valuable as passives/synergies. Healthy passives/a few points into guided arrow/crushing blow (at least goblin toe boots) and you should be able to kill ci bosses in 1 player games.

Kind of sad that in talking about the legendary bowazon, I say it should be able to take down a boss in 1 player games. But that's the world we live in.

I'm inclined to say that you may be better off with a +2 20 ias bow, depending on your ias rate and breakpoints, and the base damage of the bow. Guided arrow would be a whole lot more effective if you used a +2 20ias 50 dmg rune bow as opposed to wizendraw, or maybe even opt for a 20ias 70-80+ dmg rune bow as that would add some physical dmg to your guided arrow and help with leech.

Check around these forums for a freeze arrow zon guide, should be one around somewhere. I'm not good for much advice on this topic.

 

[goomba]

quick question for those of you who have played bowazons.

if a bow addes elemental damage, does it get applied on top of say, the frozen arrow/immolation types?

just curious. I have one remaining 'decent' bow. a 123 gothic, with 50 psn dmg. I also have a set of death's gloves/belt sitting in a mule. (the dual leach 122 gothic, I didn't get as much for, as I would have liked *Shrug* )

 

[DougDadyUsWest]

I don't understand how else it would be applied? So yes, it's just an additional source of damage to the cold or fire increased from your bow skills. But 50psn dmg over x seconds isn't going to help much, I'm afraid.

 

[goomba]

I don't understand how else it would be applied? So yes, it's just an additional source of damage to the cold or fire increased from your bow skills. But 50psn dmg over x seconds isn't going to help much, I'm afraid.

the only reason I asked, is that I once made a bowazon, thinking I'd have her use rclaw, and chant her...

using strafe, she didn't fire the rclaw's exploding arrows..., which sorta negated the whole point of the experiment...

 

[WarlockCC]

The Explosions are an type of arrow fired, which in the case of the ravenclaw will 'replace' normal shooting. If you use any of the other skills, like the amazon's own exploding arrow skill, the exploding arrows on the bow won't work. You won't get double explosions. You can have normal arrows on a bowzon pierce(if you have the pierce skill) and trigger another explosion if the arrow pierces the first target and collides with another target.
Time to haxor yourself a Doomslinger ring for use on a Raven Chantress.

 

[norvi11erogers]

The splash damage is not ar dependent.

Pierce, however, IS ar dependent. You must hit in order to pierce. Annoyingly, the client sometimes will show you piercing something when you're really not. Pierce is also where a lot of this build's damage comes from - fa will destroy small packs of monsters.

I made one with a perfect wizendraw, which for the low physical damage route is probably the best bow. Higher resistances means lower cold duration, so -res effectively adds to your cold duration. The lack of real pierce is the largest drawback. So I remade using a decent gothic bow and high dex +mana leech. I'm just still having trouble with strafe though, and the 400ish max physical damage using fa just doesn't seem to offset the damage lost from not using wizendraw. she's only lvl 61, and so i can add more into penetrate, but i'd really rather not use sigons or angelics.

Edit: with this remake, i have not used death's belt, and i've not found the lack of CBF to be a large annoyance thus far (into act 3 hell now).

Also, know that not all eye of etlichs are created equal, and you can't tell without testing how long the cold duration is. it's between about 2 and 10 seconds on normal. If you're on west ladder, i have quite the collection and could certainly hook you up with a good one.

 

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

It's tough to build a bowazon without twitch and deaths gloves/belt. I can maybe understand swapping twitch for a mage plate for the life/resists, but it is absolutely essential to have deaths glove/belt for a bowazon.

30ias/life leech/cannot be frozen/+15 resists all is by far the godliest combination of stats that a bowazon will find from those two items.

That's a good combo for a conventional build but not sure about mine. There is no way I can use slvl 20 freezing arrow without mana (really need frostburns or something). I also don't think life leech makes much difference. Since I am planning to use a valkyrie, the leech isn't as important. The IAS is what I'll be missing but I'll hit decent breakpoints (since the unique bows I'm planning have IAS on them)...

I'm not sure you need to be overly concerned with Attack Rating for your amazon. FA with pierce has a few chances to hit, and if your a/r gives 50% to hit and you pierce 50% then half the time you will hit every time :wink2: . But seriously, don't worry about a/r too much unless you get to the point where it's the main thing slowing you down. I doubt that it will be, though. All the constant running away from badies and trying to not die will probably be the main concern :shocked: .

My previous amazon (a strafer, who was a failure) really didn't have much problem with monsters, but then again, I had an slvl 20 valkyrie whereas now I'm only going to have slvl 7 or 8 valk...

I think you may be right in saying that AR may be something I should not worry too much about but still not sure how important it is. Since I am planning to go with very low dex, my AR will be horrible (my guess is that my % to hit will be in the 40% range). I might end up wearing hsaru belt+boot for AR but not sure.

If I were you I'd just avoid immolation arrow, it's a waste of 20 points. Those points are much more valuable as passives/synergies. Healthy passives/a few points into guided arrow/crushing blow (at least goblin toe boots) and you should be able to kill ci bosses in 1 player games.

How about cold immunes?

Kind of sad that in talking about the legendary bowazon, I say it should be able to take down a boss in 1 player games. But that's the world we live in.

I think the game is balanced for the expansion and the amazon got screwed over in the normal version (probably because you can raise your skill levels and speed in d2x whereas normal d2 only has a few unique items to do that). Based on my experience with my strafer, I would say that a bowazon is unplayable past a2/hell. I'm not an expert but that's my impression based on seeing others too (I haven't seen a single bowazon in a4/hell).

I'm inclined to say that you may be better off with a +2 20 ias bow, depending on your ias rate and breakpoints, and the base damage of the bow. Guided arrow would be a whole lot more effective if you used a +2 20ias 50 dmg rune bow as opposed to wizendraw, or maybe even opt for a 20ias 70-80+ dmg rune bow as that would add some physical dmg to your guided arrow and help with leech.

I don't think I can afford that equipment. It is improbable that I can find a 20IAS bow or trade for one. It'll either be a random imbue, a unique, or one of my existing 100ish dmg gothic bows (none have IAS or +skills).

Check around these forums for a freeze arrow zon guide, should be one around somewhere. I'm not good for much advice on this topic.

I have only seen some for d2x but not for the normal version. I used that as a guide but they don't really address some issues. The key ones are:

(i) mana: Given that slvl20 freezing arrow costs almost 20 mana per shot (so roughly 50 per second), I'm not sure how to handle mana.
(ii) cold immunes: The expansion guide I was looking at says to rely on the merc (or strafe if I go the strafe route). Not exactly ideal solutions here...

 

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

The splash damage is not ar dependent.

So is it feasible to rely mostly on the splash damage and ignore AR for hte most part (I realize your point about pierce which I will mention below)...

Pierce, however, IS ar dependent. You must hit in order to pierce. Annoyingly, the client sometimes will show you piercing something when you're really not. Pierce is also where a lot of this build's damage comes from - fa will destroy small packs of monsters.

If you have a decent pierce %, how much does the AR really matter? Yes, you will be missing way more and hence not piercing as much, but you will still get a pierce check at least for half of the attempts (say your % to hit is 50%). Is that really such a bad thing to give up?

I made one with a perfect wizendraw, which for the low physical damage route is probably the best bow. Higher resistances means lower cold duration, so -res effectively adds to your cold duration. The lack of real pierce is the largest drawback. So I remade using a decent gothic bow and high dex +mana leech. I'm just still having trouble with strafe though, and the 400ish max physical damage using fa just doesn't seem to offset the damage lost from not using wizendraw. she's only lvl 61, and so i can add more into penetrate, but i'd really rather not use sigons or angelics.

If you had perfect wizendraw (-36% cold res I think??) then it will be hard to overcome that with a typical gothic bow. I think you will probably do around average 400 cold damage with slvl20 FA + slvl20 cold arrow synergy (I think it's actually more like 600--don't remember numbers). This means you are doing around 144 damage with perfect wizendraw (36% of 400). Even an above-average rare gothic bow will have difficulties doing an average 144 damage (base avg gothic bow dmg is only 30 so even 150% enhanced damage + strength bonus will not come close). So as funny as this may sound, your 5 to 30 dmg wizendraw will do more damage than, say, 30 to 110 gothic bow (but wizendraw won't leech as much though)

I traded for a wizendraw yesterday (amazing what people will ask for useless untradable bows but fortunately ended up with it for only 3 pdiamonds ). It's on the low end with only around -25% cold res but that's what I could find for now. I'm trying to figure out if I should go with wizendraw or with Doomslinger. Doomslinger has +1 skills (which is around 15% more freezing arrow damage, plus some benefit to other skills (most notably pierce, slow missiles (lol I love this skill ), valkyrie) and has 30%-something pierce. Wizendraw is the ideal fit but how does the +1 skill & 30% pierce stack up against 25% dmg (minus cold res) & 45 mana? Wizendraw is not necessarily an obvious choice.... what do you guys think? wizendraw or doomslinger?


You haven't commented on something that I think will be the biggest problem for me: mana. How did you handle slvl 20 FA? It's like almost 20 mana per shot. Wasn't this a big problem for you?

Edit: with this remake, i have not used death's belt, and i've not found the lack of CBF to be a large annoyance thus far (into act 3 hell now).

I am one of those that does not value 'cannot be frozen'. I have nearly all my MELEE paladins playing without it so it is obviously ok for an amazon. The penalty you pay for wearing CBF is too large IMO. I would rather have, say, 25% more lightning resist than CBF.

Also, know that not all eye of etlichs are created equal, and you can't tell without testing how long the cold duration is. it's between about 2 and 10 seconds on normal. If you're on west ladder, i have quite the collection and could certainly hook you up with a good one.

Thanks for the offer... but I'm on USEast... also, I have two EoE and I'm hoping one of them is at least 5sec cold duration. Since I'm going with a low-level valkyrie, I'm not too concerned with cold duration. Sure it helps a lot but I can live with it (don't forget that I plan to wear frostburns so even in the worst case, I'll have 1sec cold duration in hell (worst case (normal dur): 2 from FA + 1 from frostburns + 2 from EoE=1.25sec hell dur). My main concern right now is mana. As crazy as this may sound, I'm planning ot put nearly all my attributte points into energy. The question is, do I go with base vitality? Am I insane?



On another note, does anyone know if inner sight and slow missiles can be active at the same time on a monster?

 

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

hmm... just checked Arreat Summit for the freezing arrow damage numbers... I think wizendraw is far more powerful than I thought... check this out (someone let me know if there are any errors--not sure if I'm doing the minus cold resistance properly):

Freezing Arrow slvl 20: 315 avg cold dmg
synergy: +12%/slvl cold arrow = +240% cold dmg

Total dmg = (1+2.4)*315= 1071
Perfect Wizendraw (-35% cold res) = +35% more cold dmg = 374.85!!!
My wizendraw (-25% cold res) = +25% dmg = 267.75

Unless I'm doing something wrong with my calculation, that's amazing... best case of 375!!! That's better than slvl 20 freezing arrow without any synergies!

If my calculation is right wizendraw is a must for frost maidens... but you'll have massive problems with mana and against cold immunes...

 

[Sebbie]

If my calculation is right wizendraw is a must for frost maidens... but you'll have massive problems with mana and against cold immunes...

Same is true for javazon and lightning immune you know. But for the mana situation I would try to stack as many mana as possible. Say a 3 saphire helm and maybe frostburns too. My javazon uses a 3 saphire helm and I went death set + twich with her. Your spell cost twice as much and deals less damage. So you need more mana. Also for your frostmaiden since she uses a bow I don't know how attack speed works here. And you have only 2 synergies instead of the 4 of the javazon. So you will have a valk right?

If you have a valk then maybe you could ignore your own hp a bit and even put some points in energy. Sounds bad I know! And wearing rings and ammys for mana. Pretty sure you can have a big mana bulb if you sacrifice attack rating and your hp. That is if your attack rating doesn't matter like the javazon. Plus if you have a valk maybe she could take care of the immune to cold... yeah right!

Also I don't wanna piss you but I found a wizendraw the other day which was in the 30s and I trashed it... If I find another one I'll keep it and give it to you. By the way I know how people are annoying when it comes to trades. The way you need to see it is that they kept an item in their stash for a while so you should pay them for that. It's like a service they do for you. And that's why I play online you know. If I need an item I can probably get it by giving a better item which is useless to me. For instance I've traded shards for twich numerous times. Getting the fair trade is just too long and annoying I could be mfing during that time.

 

[norvi11erogers]

-Re your post.
Yeah, wizendraw is huge. You aren't even taking into consideration its effects when a monster is somewhat resistant (but not immune) to cold.

Doomslinger is good for the pierce, speed (very close to max for xbows), and skill. Just check the posts i've made. WarlockCC and I talked about weapon choice for this and other builds in two different threads, one started by me, about a month ago. I did some calculations based on a 65% base chance to pierce and for differing cold resistances for wizendraw vs doomslinger. I think doomslinger is probably a better choice for a hybrid type build (immo/fa or exploding arrow/fa). The +skill/pierce would seem to reduce the number of skill points one would use.

Also, for an effective FA, one really can get by with 12 or 15 points in ice arrow (or whatever the name of the synergy is). 20 is obviously better, but whatever.

But now, in terms of pierce, ar is important. Also keep in mind, you will not have a 50% chance to hit monsters if you go no dex/no angelics. The monster levels in hell are very high (unreasonably afaik), and your ar will be abysmal. Arrows only pierce if you can hit monsters, so the chance to pierce is actually:
(chance to pierce)x(Chance to hit)

So if your chance to hit is <40%, which is sort of likely, honestly, and even if it is as high as 60%, the difference between 30% pierce and 100% pierce really doesn't matter.

But seriously, piercing is huge. It's what separates this build from a glacial spike sorc that doesn't teleport. It allows you to do double, even triple damage, with just a few skill point investment. Either you have to get your zon high level in comparison to monsters (making it hard to level), or you need dex and/or ar items.


-mana.
My zon was constantly drinking mana potions. this proved even more annoying because i was using deaths belt. I put points into nrg and I used rings/boots, etc, with +mana. Frosties are ok, but they really have zero useful mods. You will be better served by 1) set gloves with no +mana but cool mods or 2) rare gloves with +mana and good mods. Even with all this stuff though, i still went through mana potions way too fast.


-Remake
I figured I would go the dex route, thus increasing ar w/o need for +ar per level set items. With high dex, i figured I might as well use a high damage bow, thus making strafe a sort of viable alternative. With high damage, I could then use leech to regain mana. Thus, i would replace points to energy with points to dex/str, and, through leech, still have less dependence on mana pots.

or so i thought.

My mana leech (around 10% i think, maybe higher), with the penalties in hell difficulty, is just not enough to make up for the mana cost of FA. In expac, with all the ridiculous bows, this strategy probably works, but in classic, it just slows down the use of mana potions, much like adding points to nrg. In addition, even with 200+ (i think even 250) in dex, and even with a few points into penetrate, I still only have 75% to hit act 2 monsters. Part of that is a function of my level (only 61), but it's still annoying. I may end up adding ar items, like sigs gloves/helm. Also, as i mentioned, the physical damage just doesn't really make up for the lack of -35% resists.

-Future plans, and advice to you:
If you want a functional pierce (which you really should), you need to get ar. If you don't want to spend points in dex, you will need to wear ar items. My advice would be either sigs gloves + helm/boots/belt/whatever and/or angelic ring(s) and armor. I am using a nice priz +1 cold dmg ammy, but seriously, having a long cold duration hugely increases the survivability. Eye is better, even with no res to speak of. After that, use wizendraw, add a couple to penetrate, and then, use exploding arrow. I haven't tried it or immolation, but seriously, you'll fire twice as fast with exploding arrow, and you'll do ~half the damage. Get the ice arrow to 10+, then get the fire arrow of your choice to an appropriate level. Physical damage zons are just not effective when you need to use equipment that enhances FA. Either that, or sink points into LF and have a stack of javs in your inventory to switch when needed. switching weapons is lame, but LF really needs very few points to be pretty successful.

That's my advice. I'm just disappointed by my FA/strafe hybrid. I'm not sure which skill is best.

 

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

Same is true for javazon and lightning immune you know. But for the mana situation I would try to stack as many mana as possible. Say a 3 saphire helm and maybe frostburns too. My javazon uses a 3 saphire helm and I went death set + twich with her. Your spell cost twice as much and deals less damage. So you need more mana. Also for your frostmaiden since she uses a bow I don't know how attack speed works here. And you have only 2 synergies instead of the 4 of the javazon. So you will have a valk right?

Yeah.. going with a low level valk... Mana would probably be much worse than the javazon but we'll see... I have an avenger who is a mana hog and I literally have to drink one potion per monster (or pack at best) so I can handle it. But unlike hte avenger, I am thinking of going low health so that will be a big strategic shift (the avenger probably has 200 to 300 health less than my other melee paladins but that makes little difference to me)...

If you have a valk then maybe you could ignore your own hp a bit and even put some points in energy. Sounds bad I know!

I would really like to fire around 25 arrows without emptying the mana bulb. If slvl 20 FA costs 20 (it's actually something like 18.5??) then I need 500 mana. My avenger (paladin) had 200 mana with base energy, but with some +mana rings. So I probably need to put at least 100 attribute points into energy.

The real question is whether I should go base vitality or low vitality. I will probably end up with around 200 health at clvl 60 with base vitality (just guessing on the numbers). That's almost like one hit deaths by everything in late hell difficulty. Based on my strafer experience (no act4/hell experience), I rarely get hit. Even when my strafer does get hit, I usually die since hit recovery is so slow for me (I should note that the strafer had more points in dodge and stuff whereas this one won't). So I'm thinking I can play with low health.

And wearing rings and ammys for mana. Pretty sure you can have a big mana bulb if you sacrifice attack rating and your hp. That is if your attack rating doesn't matter like the javazon.

As others point out, attack rating makes a difference for pierce but I really don't know how those guys play with low mana (but with high pierce). You know how I have my martyr (paladin) using set items for AR and it is a huge negative trade-off. I would prefer to have enough mana to continuously fire freezing arrow even if I miss more (due to lower AR). I don't know. Maybe I am underestimating the power of pierce but just not sure right now.

Plus if you have a valk maybe she could take care of the immune to cold... yeah right!

Valkyrie isn't that bad. I know slvl 20 valk can actually kill monsters very slowly. But slvl 7 valk probably won't do enough damage. I really need a back up. If the mana strategy is confusing, well, the backup attack is even mroe confusing. Based on the discussion here, as well as my research, I am more confused than ever. I'm leaning towards immolation arrow or plague javelin. Both will be very slow but I don't see too many other choices. If I went for normal dex or high dex, then strafe would probably be a sufficient back up.

Also I don't wanna piss you but I found a wizendraw the other day which was in the 30s and I trashed it... If I find another one I'll keep it and give it to you.

:bangs head on wall: hehe... Anything in the 30's is good. I just checked mine yesterday and it's -26% cold res. Not great but in the middle of the range... BTW, are yo uon USEast?

By the way I know how people are annoying when it comes to trades. The way you need to see it is that they kept an item in their stash for a while so you should pay them for that. It's like a service they do for you. And that's why I play online you know. If I need an item I can probably get it by giving a better item which is useless to me. For instance I've traded shards for twich numerous times. Getting the fair trade is just too long and annoying I could be mfing during that time.

I guess I should approach it that way... it's just that I hate it when someone asks for some ridiculous thing for something that hardly anyone uses. I was actually surprised to find someone have this bow. Most people just throw away all the bows because there aren't too many bowazons on battle.net.

 

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

Good post norvi11erogers... it sort covers the key issues... some questions before I respond...

1. How feasible is a low health/base vitality amazon? Can you actually see someone putting all their attributte points into (shudder) energy? I'll probably have around 200 health at clvl60 so it's almost one hit deaths from everything but I'll have low level valkyrie and a lame decoy. I know I will face a million deaths against bosses but I usually don't fight them most of the time. Can you see this working? I am seriously thinking of going with base vitality.

2. If weak pierce is the main downside to having low AR then does having high mana compensate for it? With your FA builds, were you able to continuously fire FA non-stop (while drinking potions)? I can wear set items to get AR (2 hsaru item, and/or sigon helm+armour; no angelic though since I need the ring/amulet slots for mana and resistences). However, I am just concerned that I won't be able to fire off enough arrows to kill even one monster. I would really like to hear how many arrows you were able to fire and how your mana situation worked out.

3. Strafe is out of the question as a backup for a low dex build. Similar to many people here, I also don't like immolation arrow. The timer makes it less ideal as a backup attack (unless I switch to a third attack during the timer i.e. immo->3rd attack->3rd attack->immo->repeat). However, immolation arrow would be ideal with no equip switch, little need to change attribute/skill allocation/etc. I have no problem switching gear for backup attack. Given that, is lightning fury the best backup? Slvl 20 immo does around 300 + 100/sec, while LF does aroudn 300 with potential multiple hits.

Doomslinger is good for the pierce, speed (very close to max for xbows), and skill. Just check the posts i've made. WarlockCC and I talked about weapon choice for this and other builds in two different threads, one started by me, about a month ago. I did some calculations based on a 65% base chance to pierce and for differing cold resistances for wizendraw vs doomslinger. I think doomslinger is probably a better choice for a hybrid type build (immo/fa or exploding arrow/fa). The +skill/pierce would seem to reduce the number of skill points one would use.

Doomslinger would be good if you value pierce. You like pierce a lot but I'm thinking of almost ignoring pierce (just 3 or 4 points to get it up to 50% pierce but with horrible AR). This might be a bad decision but I'm not sure. After playing my strafer, I don't know how much pierce matters when you can't even kill the first monster.

Also, for an effective FA, one really can get by with 12 or 15 points in ice arrow (or whatever the name of the synergy is). 20 is obviously better, but whatever.

Keeping FA low will avoid mana issues, but you will only do half as much in damage. I want damage. The main reason for going this route is because I was dissapointed with my strafer's damage so I will have to max FA... since I'm going wit ha low damage weapon, max FA is also the right thing to do...

But seriously, piercing is huge. It's what separates this build from a glacial spike sorc that doesn't teleport. It allows you to do double, even triple damage, with just a few skill point investment. Either you have to get your zon high level in comparison to monsters (making it hard to level), or you need dex and/or ar items.

I know pierce is important but how do you build this amazon without running into mana problems. Even putting all attr points into energy likely isn't enough. Going with set items will be too much of a pay-off I think. For example, I can wear sigon helm+another sigon but I would prefer to use a rare helm with +mana and resists or even a 3ptopaz (or 3 pskull) helm. I may end up wearing one set combo (maybe angelic armour + ring, or hsaru belt+shoes, or sigon helm+boot/armour) but I can't see myself concentrating on getting AR.

I know pierce can theoretically double or triple your effective damage but I'm just concerned about killing the first monster and having enough mana to do it comfortably.

rings/boots, etc, with +mana. Frosties are ok, but they really have zero useful mods. You will be better served by 1) set gloves with no +mana but cool mods or 2) rare gloves with +mana and good mods. Even with all this stuff though, i still went through mana potions way too fast.

Frostburns also give increased cold duration. It's kind of low (1s to 2s in normal) but that's not bad. I think Frostburns will matter if you have high mana. If I put a lot of points into energy I can see it working. I'm planning to go with it.

My mana leech (around 10% i think, maybe higher), with the penalties in hell difficulty, is just not enough to make up for the mana cost of FA. In expac, with all the ridiculous bows, this strategy probably works, but in classic, it just slows down the use of mana potions, much like adding points to nrg. In addition, even with 200+ (i think even 250) in dex, and even with a few points into penetrate, I still only have 75% to hit act 2 monsters. Part of that is a function of my level (only 61), but it's still annoying. I may end up adding ar items, like sigs gloves/helm. Also, as i mentioned, the physical damage just doesn't really make up for the lack of -35% resists.

I haven't played the expansion (except a tiny bit a long time ago) but I think one big difference is that the expansion lets you boost skill levels to high values and to boost your attack speed... When I first thought of building this char, I was thinking of a high-dex conventional build but dumped that idea when I realized that mana leech will be difficult. It can be done but you probablyl need around 25% mana leech (this is like 8% leech in hell)... so my plan now is to have high mana (not mana leech)...

If you want a functional pierce (which you really should), you need to get ar. If you don't want to spend points in dex, you will need to wear ar items.

Still not sure if it's worth going for AR and hence pierce. I think I'm just going to build it with low dex and then if I think pierce is better when I get to hell, I'll use some set items.

That's my advice. I'm just disappointed by my FA/strafe hybrid. I'm not sure which skill is best.

You might be dissapointed with the combo but I'm dissapointed with strafe itself. Strafe just sucks now. I wouldn't build any hybrids using that. Even for bosses it probably sucks. Even with goldly items it probaly isn't good. The main reason I'm going with FA is to avoid strafe; I want to get as far away from strafe as possible. Strafe has been corrupted beyond recognition--and don't let me get strated with multishot, my former favourite a long time ago




My current plan...

I'm thinking of a low dex, low AR, low health, high mana bowazon.

40 to 60 strength (for equip; too bad frostburns req str)
50 dex (for equip)
base vitality (or maybe 100 if I find it hard)
rest energy (will probably be around 200 to 300 points)

bow: wizendraw (-26% enemy cold res)
key items: frostburns gloves, EoE amulet, rare +mana rings (with res hopefully and 30+ mana), +mana rare armour/helm/belt/etc (or 3pskull or 3ptopaz helm)

In hell, I will probably have around 200 health and probably 300 to 400 mana. Initially I was thinking of going with manald heal rings but I think rare rings may be better if I can find something with 30 or more mana (I also get res from rare rings).

Backup skill is still a total uncertainty...

 

[norvi11erogers]

1. How feasible is a low health/base vitality amazon? Can you actually see someone putting all their attributte points into (shudder) energy? I'll probably have around 200 health at clvl60 so it's almost one hit deaths from everything but I'll have low level valkyrie and a lame decoy. I know I will face a million deaths against bosses but I usually don't fight them most of the time. Can you see this working? I am seriously thinking of going with base vitality.

My zons have some in health. I just like the feel of ~400 health instead of 200. Also, isnt decoy health based on yours? Also, you get health quicker than you get mana, and while there are items that boost a % of mana, there are none such for health. I would aim for about a 400/400 split health/mana. 500/500 woudl be better of course

2. If weak pierce is the main downside to having low AR then does having high mana compensate for it? With your FA builds, were you able to continuously fire FA non-stop (while drinking potions)? I can wear set items to get AR (2 hsaru item, and/or sigon helm+armour; no angelic though since I need the ring/amulet slots for mana and resistences). However, I am just concerned that I won't be able to fire off enough arrows to kill even one monster. I would really like to hear how many arrows you were able to fire and how your mana situation worked

Yes, i could fire FA nonstop, but i drank potions a lot. My pierce wasn't great (due to low ar), but seriously, i cannot stress enough how important pierce is. When monsters are in a clump, it can double, triple damage to all of them. When monsters are spread out, aiming so that you can clip melee monsters that are close to you while still keeping annoying archers frozen is huge. And of course, this still damages all of the monsters.

In terms of compensation, you're asking, essentially, does it compensate for dealing less damage to be able to deal damage for longer. I mean, sort of, but clearly the more effective build will do more damage more quickly.

I am considering, whenever i have time, to put sigs gloves+helm on my old zon. Either that, or angelic armor+ring. Maybe even both.

3. Strafe is out of the question as a backup for a low dex build. Similar to many people here, I also don't like immolation arrow. The timer makes it less ideal as a backup attack (unless I switch to a third attack during the timer i.e. immo->3rd attack->3rd attack->immo->repeat). However, immolation arrow would be ideal with no equip switch, little need to change attribute/skill allocation/etc. I have no problem switching gear for backup attack. Given that, is lightning fury the best backup? Slvl 20 immo does around 300 + 100/sec, while LF does aroudn 300 with potential multiple hits.

Yeah, i think LF might be the way to go.

Doomslinger would be good if you value pierce. You like pierce a lot but I'm thinking of almost ignoring pierce (just 3 or 4 points to get it up to 50% pierce but with horrible AR). This might be a bad decision but I'm not sure. After playing my strafer, I don't know how much pierce matters when you can't even kill the first monster.

You will be an effective killer of monsters, but you will be more effective with pierce for reasons stated previously.

Keeping FA low will avoid mana issues, but you will only do half as much in damage. I want damage. The main reason for going this route is because I was dissapointed with my strafer's damage so I will have to max FA... since I'm going wit ha low damage weapon, max FA is also the right thing to do...

No, i meant keeping the synergy a little lower. i agree that one should max FA. Mana will be an issue, straight up. Just have a lot of pots, and have a large bulb. Hopefully, you'll only be forced to go to town to get pots as often as for arrows.

I know pierce is important but how do you build this amazon without running into mana problems. Even putting all attr points into energy likely isn't enough. Going with set items will be too much of a pay-off I think. For example, I can wear sigon helm+another sigon but I would prefer to use a rare helm with +mana and resists or even a 3ptopaz (or 3 pskull) helm. I may end up wearing one set combo (maybe angelic armour + ring, or hsaru belt+shoes, or sigon helm+boot/armour) but I can't see myself concentrating on getting AR.

Sigs helm has mana. not much, but meh.

I know pierce can theoretically double or triple your effective damage but I'm just concerned about killing the first monster and having enough mana to do it comfortably.

Get pierce get pierce get pierce get pierce.

Frostburns also give increased cold duration. It's kind of low (1s to 2s in normal) but that's not bad. I think Frostburns will matter if you have high mana. If I put a lot of points into energy I can see it working. I'm planning to go with it.

I tried frosties, but i found the added cold duration to be too little (14 vs 12 seconds, or a quarter that in hell, so an increase of half a second). The added mana was nice, but i found that firing so slowly just annoyed the crap out of me.

You might be dissapointed with the combo but I'm dissapointed with strafe itself. Strafe just sucks now. I wouldn't build any hybrids using that. Even for bosses it probably sucks. Even with goldly items it probaly isn't good. The main reason I'm going with FA is to avoid strafe; I want to get as far away from strafe as possible. Strafe has been corrupted beyond recognition--and don't let me get strated with multishot, my former favourite a long time ago

Yeah, i wish i had known this before i remade. Oh well.

 

[norvi11erogers]

update,

just put a couple angelic rings +armor on my old fa zon. Dumped some extra stat points into energy, and put some skill points into LF. Haven't tried LF yet, but it's only lvl 11 or so. She's lvl 67, and she's pretty effective. I mean, it's a bit of a sacrifice not to get resists from rings, but they do give you 10 dex each, which is nice. and freezing monsters should hopefully keep you from getting hit, meaning you don't need all of your res maxed. Right now, here's what i'm looking at:

ammy: eye
armor/ring(s): angelic
gloves/helm: irathras (gives 20/30% ias gets to the same breakpoint)

and then the rest will fill itself out.

 

[KoalaBearThirtyThree]

I levelled up my amazon a lot. She is like level 40ish now I think. You guys are going to hate me but I can see why Blizz nerfed her so much (compared to the past). She is just way too powerful for someone who does not get hit (this is assuming you have a valkyrie or a decent decoy). Now, this is just nightmare and we all know that she sucks in hell, but nevertheless, I can see the reasoning for making her weak (although Blizz went overboard for the Classic version in hell).

I started using wizendraw but have not used any other "final" items. I don't want to peak too early. I have something like 6 in valkyrie (final), 5 in pierce (final), 10 in cold arrow and probably 10 in freezing arrow (around 10 skill points unallocated now). My attributes are something like 40/60/base/100 (with around 100 unallocated). No secondary attack yet. Ran into cold immune Radamant but was able to just use normal attack to get rid of him (I think it was just a 1 player game--not sure). Immolation (or even exploding arrow) is the ideal fit but lightning fury will be more powerful. One wild idea I have is to boost the synergy for immolation arrow or exploding. I think I'll have extra skill points so I can probably put 5 points into immolation or exploding arrow's synergy.

Another decision I have ot make is with AR vs speed vs mana. I may end up wearing 2 set items to get around 500 AR (still not sold on this though)... The IAS I need are: 10, 20 or 40. I'm not going for speed at the expense of others so 40 IAS is out of the question (unless I dump frostburns and use sigon glove). So do I go for 20 IAS (need to lose armour slot with twitchthroe ) or 10 IAS (goldwrap and lose belt slot)? Each speed break is around 10% to 15% more damage (roughly) so this will depend on how damage works out in hell.

So far I think freezing arrow is "better" than strafe. But I should note that FA is not weapon dependent while strafe totally depends on the bow (rich characters with goldly bows may like strafe much better). One little thing I like about FA is that splash damage can be used defensively. If a monster actualy comes close to you, if you aim at that monster then the others that are approaching and almost next to you will freeze too.

My zons have some in health. I just like the feel of ~400 health instead of 200. Also, isnt decoy health based on yours? Also, you get health quicker than you get mana, and while there are items that boost a % of mana, there are none such for health. I would aim for about a 400/400 split health/mana. 500/500 woudl be better of course

I was actually surprised to find that mana isn't THAT big of a deal (I have 100 points in energy but with no frostburns or any +mana items yet). My FA is only like level 10 so it requires half the max, and I kill monsters far faster than I will in hell, but still... I may not need to take mana too high. If I can live with this, then as you suggest (i) can have much higher life, (ii) can dump frostburns and can go with IAS or resist gloves. But I really won't spend my attr points or decide on final equip until I get to hell. We'll see...

I also find the cold duration to be no problem. Note that I have 2s (normal) from FA only, which is like 0.5s in nightmare. This is basically how it will feel if I'm in hell and wearing a couple of cold duration items (2s more normal). Longer is obviously better but I think I can live with 0.5s in hell.

Yes, i could fire FA nonstop, but i drank potions a lot. My pierce wasn't great (due to low ar), but seriously, i cannot stress enough how important pierce is. When monsters are in a clump, it can double, triple damage to all of them. When monsters are spread out, aiming so that you can clip melee monsters that are close to you while still keeping annoying archers frozen is huge. And of course, this still damages all of the monsters.

If you are having any impact on my thinking, it's with pierce and AR. As you have recommended, I think I'll try to maintain a decent % to hit and get a decent pierce. I'll have around 50% pierce no matter (I always put around 4 to 6 skill points in pierce for all bowazons) what but the question is AR. I am leaning towards wearing 2 set items and getting around 500 more AR and may be even putting points into penetrate (but this depends on what happens with my secondary attack).

I am considering, whenever i have time, to put sigs gloves+helm on my old zon. Either that, or angelic armor+ring. Maybe even both.

I think the sig helm + glove is a good combo for this amazon (IAS & mana is nice) but the real question is how much it will matter. If you notice more damage (over time) then it may be worth it. I really don't like the angelic combo (I usually rely on rings for resists, or mana in this case). I'm not sure what you are using for boots and belt but you may also look into hsaru belt+boot. Your resists will drop but at least you get some resists.

Yeah, i think LF might be the way to go.

I'm leaning towards exploding arrow or immolation but don't have my mind made up yet... this will be the path of a purist

No, i meant keeping the synergy a little lower. i agree that one should max FA. Mana will be an issue, straight up. Just have a lot of pots, and have a large bulb. Hopefully, you'll only be forced to go to town to get pots as often as for arrows.

I think if you want to be more rounded, with a stronger secondary attack or something, then limiting the synergy wouldn't be bad. However, for a primary frost maiden I think both need to be maxed to get the max damage. I'll see. So far I'm surprised that the mana cost isn't that bad. I was using my avenger (paladin) as a reference (who drinks like one mana potion every few monsters) but the amazon isn't bad. I think one reason is because the avenger has to melee mana burn and mana leech monsters (ghosts for example) whereas my amazon doesn't come into contact with them on a regular basis (I do notice that slvl 6 valkyrie is very weak compared to slvl 20--I notice a big difference). I also have 100 points in energy but that's only like 150 more mana so that probably isn't it.

Sigs helm has mana. not much, but meh.

Yeah... it's not bad... 30 or something like that... lol you can fire one more shot of freezing arrow...

I tried frosties, but i found the added cold duration to be too little (14 vs 12 seconds, or a quarter that in hell, so an increase of half a second). The added mana was nice, but i found that firing so slowly just annoyed the crap out of me.

What was your IAS? Until I figure out the mana situation, I won't decide on IAS.

Yeah, i wish i had known this before i remade. Oh well.

Strafe used to be an amazing skill. I always liked multishot much better but both of them were amazing skills pre-expansion...

just put a couple angelic rings +armor on my old fa zon. Dumped some extra stat points into energy, and put some skill points into LF. Haven't tried LF yet, but it's only lvl 11 or so. She's lvl 67, and she's pretty effective. I mean, it's a bit of a sacrifice not to get resists from rings, but they do give you 10 dex each, which is nice. and freezing monsters should hopefully keep you from getting hit, meaning you don't need all of your res maxed. Right now, here's what i'm looking at:

ammy: eye
armor/ring(s): angelic
gloves/helm: irathras (gives 20/30% ias gets to the same breakpoint)

I really don't like the angelic combo but many people love it. What are you using for belt and boots? Have you considered hsaru belt + boots, and using rare rings or something (won't give as much AR though)? I think it all comes down to playing style. Some people rely on belts & boots for resists while I tend to rely on armour and rings for resists.

 

[WarlockCC]

Note that Angelics 10 dex bonus is gold, therefore you only get that once even when wearing two rings. The AR bonus is green, so you get that per ring. And 12 ar per level per ring is allways a nice thing.