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List of Viable Solo Untwinked HC Chars

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by krzyhobo, Jun 25, 2005.

  1. krzyhobo

    krzyhobo IncGamers Member

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    List of Viable Solo Untwinked HC Chars

    As the title notes I'm interested in your thoughts regarding which character builds are realistically capable of soloing through Hell difficulty fully untwinked without any help of any sort from other characters and without the FE reduction/removal mod.

    My list so far includes the most obvious builds
    • Fishymancer
    • Hammerdin
    • Trapper or Trapper Hybrid
    • Virtually any well-built two-tree sorc
    • Berserker (Or so NF claims :D)

    I know there are lots more but I haven't tried many builds in 1.10 yet - I'd like to hear your thoughts.
     
  2. Liliel

    Liliel IncGamers Member

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    LF zon.
    Daggerzon (if you're allowed to MF for a Guilliman's Face and/or Gorerider).
     
  3. Sledge

    Sledge IncGamers Member

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    concentrate barb as well
     
  4. Quickdeath

    Quickdeath IncGamers Member

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    A Guide to SP Builds

    Here is a "guide to single player builds" that I started writing based on the input and debate of a lot folks in the SPF. No person agrees with every judgment call and every rating, but its a good consensus starting point.

    Guide to Single Player Builds

    The purpose of this guide is to provide some relative measures of how hard or easy it is to take the most popular character builds through Hell in Single Player (SP) mode. Single Player mode presents many challenges not necessarily found in multi-players games because the SP build must be able to handle all the circumstances in the game. Most of us find Normal and Nightmare levels of difficulty to be straightforward, so the hell level of difficulty is our discriminator. This guide is written specifically for V1.10 and for Softcore (SC) play.

    Criteria
    What is meant by “easy†or “hard?†In developing these ratings, the SP Forum community has had some interesting discussions on that point. Many people feel that any build is possible to take through hell with enough time and skill; other dispute that vigorously. Without resolving that dispute, we’ve undertaken to consider five aspects of the character builds that contribute to ease or difficulty of play:

    1. Killing speed. Builds with great damage and area-of-effect skills can plow through the game quickly. This is a major factor in defining ease of play. Melee builds that kill monsters one-at-a-time tend to score lower in this category than powerful builds that kill several monsters with a single action.

    2. Safety. Even in soft-core mode, getting killed is a bummer – and getting killed frequently is very disruptive to character leveling, wealth accumulation etc. So, ability to avoid being killed is an important factor. If this list were to be applied to Hardcore play, this would probably be the single dominant consideration.

    3. Versatility. Only a few builds literally handle everything with ease, most stumble over certain types of immune monsters. Some builds have trouble with the Ancients, others struggle with ranged attackers or very fast, fanatical swarms. The builds that have the fewest weak-points were considered to be the easiest.

    4. Level of twinking needed to play with ease. Twinking refers to the practice of equipping your character with equipment from outside the game –usually using the ATMA code. We assumed that most players do not have extremely powerful gear to put on their characters. Frankly, if you have all the best sets, uniques and rune-worded gear in the game then even the very hardest builds become comfortable to play –it is no longer the build skills that count, because you are playing attributes given you by the gear. We considered those builds that are easy to play with no special gear at all as easy – and the need for progressively more powerful gear tends to equate to a build that is “hard.†Some examples are many Barbarian builds which benefit dramatically from a very powerful weapon –whereas a Fishymancer build is not highly dependent on gear.

    5. Complexity of play. Some builds require complex keystroking and strategy that may be a bit hard to master. Examples include builds that lean heavily on timered spells such as Fire Sorcs, Fire Druids or Fire Bowazons, and builds where timing of the keystroke is critical to getting the desired effect – such as the Phoenix Strike Assassin. Examples of builds that are simple to play are the Concentrate Barbarian and the Charged Boltress –they are point and fire characters. This criterion was not given undue weight but was a tie-breaker – it was considered in those cases where the categorization of the build was a close call.

    And then in some un-scientific way, we combined all these factors in our discussions and produced subjective rankings of the character builds.

    Rating Definitions
    So here are the categories, or ratings we used:

    1. Easy –Untwinked If a build is relatively safe, kills fast and kills almost everything – and does so without uber-gear, then it fell into this category.

    2. Easy-Twinked These are builds that are straightforward to play through Hell in SP mode if they are mildly twinked and don’t have to live off the land. These builds don’t need top-of-the line gear to be easy – just a selection from decent but modest stash.

    3. Medium These builds are generally slower to play or in more jeopardy of being killed frequently than those in the Easy twinked category. In some (but not all cases) access to Top-of-the line twinked gear will make these builds fairly easy to play.

    4. Hard. These builds are not recommended for novices trying their first character. They tend to be underpowered and slow, and many have trouble when confronted with monsters with certain common types of immunities. But still, these are playable characters and can be taken through Hell with patience and skill.

    5. Insane. These builds have been taken through Hell by some of the better players in the community but are extremely demanding.

    The most popular builds are listed below, with some explanatory notes, according to this categorization scheme. We do not editorialize about which builds are fun or boring. Remember that your playing style and detailed choices of mercs, attribute point investments and auxiliary skills will affect your playing experience – as will luck! So, your mileage may vary.

    Easy Untwinked:
    Fishymancer The necromancer build that relies mainly on raised skeletons, but also a golem, and some returned monsters. If your life depended on getting through the entire game with a Hard-core Character –without being killed once – most players would pick this build. Very safe, decent killing speed and does well everywhere. A bit hard to play in confined spaces (the maggot lair).

    MeteorOrb Sorc A very strong build using area-of effect fire spells, with a large area cold damage spell as a backup to deal with fire immunes. The ability of a sorc to teleport contributes greatly to dealing with many situations. And, the ability to stand back in safety and kill large groups of monsters? Priceless.

    Hammerdin This is a paladin with the Blessed Hammer skill and synergies. He stands back in safety and spams magic hammers that are unblockable and have overwhelming levels of damage. The hammers are a bit tricky to aim at first, but eventually this character becomes unstoppable.

    Lightning Trapsin An assassin who invests in lightning traps and their synergies and in the Death Sentry trap for lightning immune monsters. Safe, and the lightning traps develop very high damage levels. Some great auxiliary skills for safety are also available to the assassin.

    Blizzard Sorc This is a sorceress who uses the area-of-effect cold damage spell named Blizzard, usually with a back-up spell such as Firewall. Static Field is also usedto assit with cold immunes. High damage spells that affect wide areas, combined with teleport capabilities, make this sorceress similar to the Meteorb Sorc – fast and safe. Both the Firewall and Blizzard spells require some practice to use to full benefit.

    Easy Twinked:

    Lightning (LF) JavaZon, Lightning/CS Spearazon
    These two Amazon builds both use lightning-damage skills on the Javelin and Spear Skill Tree. The Charged Strike skill is a great boss killer and Lightning Fury and Lightning Strike, respectively, are impressive for the ability to incinerate large crowds of bad guys. The ability of lightning to bounce off walls makes these skills especially deadly. Lightning immunes are much slower to kill, however.

    Tesladin, Frost Zealot
    These two popular Paladin builds combine one-at-a-time melee fighting with high-levels of skill-based elemental damage. Use of Zeal to deliver multiple fast blows to targets greatly increases killing speed. Tesladins have the higher average damage, Frost Zealots gain safety advantages from reducing the speed of monsters via chilling. Advocates of both types tout their advantages, but their ease of play is about the same.

    Fury WereWolf (Druid), Frenzy Barb, Fanatical Zealot (Paladin)
    These three builds have many similarities in that they allow very fast attacks with melee weapons at enhanced physical damage levels. The Frenzy Barb must use two one-handed weapons, whereas the Fury Werewolf is usually played with a two-handed weapon and the fanatical Zealot is often played with a single one-handed weapon plus shield. The Barb and Werewolf builds gain safety from having very large amounts of life – i.e., many hitpoints, whereas the Paladin takes advantage of his shield and the skill called Holy Shield to achieve nice safety levels. Their significant limitation is that each blow damages only one monster at a time –thereby limiting their killing speed somewhat.

    BoneMancer (Paladin) This build kills monsters from a distance with a combination of ranged magic damage attacks that are unblockable and are infrequently reduced by monster resistances. Bone Spirit is 100% piercing, allowing the Bonemancer to damage many monsters with each spell when they are tightly packed. Widely-spaced monsters require more time to overcome. This is a safe build which can utilize a clay golem, bone walls and the necromancer’s assortment of curses for safety and defense. However, deep in hell, the damage of the bone spells becomes underpowered and patience is required. And other than +skills mods, the modifiers on equipment and charms do not further increase the killing power of the Bonemancer. Mana management is sometimes an issue.

    Wind Druid A ranged attacker dealing spells that produce physical damage, with some cold damage mixed in, this druid is a safe and versatile build. The overall damage level becomes somewhat underpowered in Hell without good equipment. Cyclone Armor increases the ability to absorb elemental damage. The Wind spells can be tricky to aim and require some practice.

    Fire Sorc. The Fire Sorc relies on highly-synergized Fire damage spells to produce very high damage wide-area spells with great killing speed. Fire immunes can be troublesome, however, and are dealt with much more slowly by combining static field and the damage of the Merc.

    CL/Orb Sorc Chain Lightning is the primary killing spell of this sorc with a cold spell such as Frozen Orb for Lightning Immunes. Chain lightning is a great wide-area killer, although it consumes mana rapidly. There is an issue with this build that causes it to be ranked as harder than the Meteorb and Blizzard builds. In the meteororb and Blizzard builds, monsters who are immune to the main attack can be zapped to half-life by static field and finished off by the back-up skill. However, with teh CL/Orb Sorc, the Lightning-immune monsters who are unaffected by Chain Lightning are also immune to static field – making the job of using the back-up skill twice as hard and twice as slow.

    FurySin. This is an assassin that attacks with the Blade Fury skill. Blade Fury converts any one-handed melee weapon into a ranged attack that delivers ¾ of the weapons damage in a flying blade, at the rate of one blade every 5 frames (i.e., about five blades per second.) Thus, this build has the safety of a ranged attack the damage level of ¾ of the best one-handed weapon you can find and great attack speed. Combined with the assassin’s great utility skills like Fade, Cloak of Shadows, Mind-blast and Shadow-master this can be a very formidable and safe build. Its killing speed is only limited by the constraint that your blades must be aimed at one monster at a time. Deep in Hell, its damage limitations become more obvious and it may take some time to kill each monster

    Concentrate Barb. This build received much discussion during the ranking process, and there are advocates for it being ranked much easier and also for being ranked much harder. The Concentrate Barb is safe and straightforward to play. He is a bit slow because of his one-at-a-time attack style and playing him untwinked –without a decent weapon – will make him more difficult to play. However, the availability of even great equipment does not raise the Conc Barb to the same level that most other builds can attain with great equipment. He is viewed as being steady, safe and straightforward.

    PStrike Martial Arts Sin. Using the Phoenix Strike skill and synergies to impart wide area elemental damage onto a melee attack, this Assassin build scores high for versatility and its independence from the need for great equipment. Even though Assassins attack quickly, it is not as highly powered as some builds in this category. Its safety is improved by utility skills like Cloak of Shadows. Reliably triggering the first two of the Phoenix Strike attacks requires precisely timed keystrokes and is a bit difficult in the heat of combat –that one aspect of play makes Phoenix Strike one of the harder skills to master.

    Medium:
    Martial Arts Sin (TS/Dtail, Dtalon) These martial arts assassins are prototypical of a medium build -they are not outstanding at killing speed, safety or versatility, but neither are these factors a problem. With their multiple charge-ups and release kicks, and the various finite-term utility spells to keep track of (venom, Cloak of Shadows, mind blast) the assassin presents a bit more play complexity than some other characters.

    Strafezon Relying on auto-aiming rapid fire and a build that combines as many multipliers as possible to physical damage, the Strafezon is a bow-wielding Amazon who is built around the strafe skill. Without an exceptional unique bow or higher, this build will struggle greatly and be quite hard, but with a best-in-the game bow like Windforce the Strafezon becomes an easy build. Dealing with Physical immunes and the inherently low damage of a bow are the challenges in this build but when constructed correctly the Strafezon is very safe.

    Frost Maiden Zon This is as an Amazon who uses the Frozen Arrow skill and synergies to add elemental damage to its bow and arrows. The cold damage available to this build is low when compared to most end-game character builds, but it does have a limited area-of-effect and also slows the affected monsters, thereby improving safety. The Cold-immune monsters in Hell are a challenge for the Frost Maiden Zon. Mana management can become an issue for this build, depending upon the characters specific design.

    Zerker Barb. A Barbarian based around the Beserk combat skill, this build can be safe but somewhat slow. Use of the high-level Warcry skill can pose mana management issues. Use of other warcrys like Howl, Taunt and Battlecry provide flexibility and the Natural Resistance mastery improves safety.

    Whirlwind Barb This Barbarian build poses some unusual strengths and weaknesses. It is based on the Whirlwind Combat Skill but its damage in version 1.10 is at sub-optimum levels. It does provide a very rapid attack mode for damaging swarms of monsters but at its current damage levels the attacks must be repeated multiple times, making crowd control a bit more problematic. It has safety issues with dealing Aura-enchanted monsters with Iron-Maiden.

    Thrower Barb A rare ranged Barbarian build, this character is based around the dual throw skill and capability of a Barbarian. Capable of wielding any of the various missile weapons, this build offers more safety than most Barbarian builds but tends to have less physical damage and slower killing speeds. Still, damage can be brought to respectable levels, especially if higher-end equipment is available.

    Shockwave WereBear Uses the shockwave skill to stun wide areas of monsters and the Maul skill to inflict physical damage. This Druid Werebear build is considered to be very viable and fairly safe. However, the Werebear is slow moving and does kill enemies one at a time.

    Fireclaws Werewolf The Druid build utilizes the Fireclaws Skill and its synergies for impressive damage and the huge amounts of life available to the Werewolf build for safety. When investing skill points, however, trade-offs need to be made between enhancing life and increasing Fireclaws damage -meaning that both attributes cannot be maximized in the same character. Strategies for dealing with Fire-immunes further stress this character and/or slow its progress through Hell. However, this is a very viable build which is improved by good equipment.

    Avenger This Paladin uses the Vengeance Combat skill and its synergies and the Conviction Aura, along with a host of utility auras and skills. The Avenger uses a melee attack to deliver physical damage and three types of elemental damage at impressive levels and depresses the elemental damage resistances and defense ratings of monsters with the Conviction aura. This multi-spectrum attack means that no monster in the game is immune to the Avenger and simplifies his play style. The Avenger is a point-to-point attacker, killing enemies one at a time. Safety challenges arise when he encounters swarms of powerful monsters. Multiple utility auras can enhance his safety but also make the gameplay a bit complicated.

    VenomMancer/Daggermancer

    Charged Boltress. Spam, wipe and clean is the motto of this Sorceress. Using the Charged Bolt skill she rapidly fills an area with a large number of randomly-moving charged bolts. Although the potential total damage can reach some impressive levels the damage is not directed. In general, this Sorc build has lower killing speed than the higher-ranked Sorc Builds. The Frozen Orb skill is used to deal with Lightning Immunes, but becomes a slow method of killing as the character progresses deep into hell. Safety is reasonably high due to teleporting and ranged nature of attacks.

    Vindicator/Templar Pally

    Jabbazon Jab, Jab, Jab. With a big hurty spear weapon and large investments in the Dodge skill to help with safety, this build is an extreme example of the old saying “Do one thing and do it well.†It is conceptually simple to play, and the rapid jabbing keeps the target monster in near-continuous hit recovery. Of course it kills one monster at a time and will be slow. And swarms of monsters pose tactical problems. Getting a top-level spear weapon can be very important. But, "There is a season, jab, jab, jab..."

    Lord of Mages/Magimancer

    Time-consuming/Hard:
    Tankazon
    Meleemancer
    Templar Paladin
    Chargadin
    Tri-elementalist Sorc
    Shadow Sin (Ninja)
    Fire Bowazon
    Magic Arrow Zon
    Singer Barb
    Hunter Druid/Summoner
    Fire Druid
    Martyr Pally
    Enchantress
    Energy Shield Sorc
    Attomancer
    Iron barb
    Cleric
    Ranger (Paladin)
    Blazetress

    Insane:
    Mojomancer
    GolemMancer
    Leaper Barb
    Single Tree Pallys
    Naked Sorc
    Naked Necromancer
    BowBarb
     
  5. Wizardhawk

    Wizardhawk IncGamers Member

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    I'm thinking of starting a HC golemancer to see how I can do. What are the skill rules for one? Golems, mastery, summon resist and curses only? What about corpse explosion?
     
  6. krzyhobo

    krzyhobo IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the input guys.

    Quickdeath - Your post is about two-hundred and thiry-six thousand times more comprehensive than I was expecting. You should submit that to be included somewhere in the stickies.
     
  7. Quickdeath

    Quickdeath IncGamers Member

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    Golems have verrry low damage and a viable Golemmancer is a very hard build.

    Nightfish has probably done the best with this - he maxed Iron Golem and Fire Golem (for its damage synergy to Iron Golem) and then used good weapons to form Iron Golems that deal high damage. His golemmancer defeated Hell Baal. But Nightfish twinks his characters out the wazoo - this build would be harder untwinked.

    So as I remember, he maxed IG, FG, Golem Mastery, and put about 6 points into Summon resist. He had points in one of the good curses, as well, - Amp Dam, or Decrep or Life Tap or Attract.
     
  8. seige

    seige IncGamers Member

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    You also mentioned a Tankazon is time-consuming and hard Quickdeath. Thanks, that's my next nekkid project along with a Meteorb.
    Nice write up, well written :thumbsup:

    - Jas :howdy:
     
  9. fredsta54

    fredsta54 IncGamers Member

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    ive seen a good golemmancer before. of course with godly gear it will only kill about as fast as a skelemancer with sub-par gear. i seen 1 w/ a might pride merc, +44 summon skills, teleport, bo, etc.

    Iron golem can reach about 18k life, massive thorns, nice defence, and with an ebotd thunder maul with synergy from fire golem, might+ conc and amp, he can solo hell pits and kill most monsters in 1 golem hit.

    Obviously its underpowered and not worth it to build, but with crazy funds yopu can make it work. Btw, your golem will not die, its almost impossible. w/ 18k life, decent defence, and resists + life steal he is indestructable.




    Fred
     
  10. sunbearie

    sunbearie IncGamers Member

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    :eek:

    I think I found my new pit-runner. Massive mf, maxed CE, IG.

    Back to topic, I would like to add that 2-elements sorcs tend to do well untwinked if you can survive until you get your skill of choice.

    A venommancer should be relatively easy untwinked too if slow, esp if he has a couple of summons.

    Quickdeath, you listed a bonemancer as a paladin. :lol:
     
  11. Quickdeath

    Quickdeath IncGamers Member

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    No wonder he wasn't easier to play!

    Seriously, my bad! I'm an old guy and sometimes my neurons misfire.
     
  12. crazy_bear

    crazy_bear IncGamers Member

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    Something tells me you meant Bonemancer (Necromancer) :lol:

    That list turned out very well Quickdeath. I remember you putting it together a while back. :thumbsup:
     
  13. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    What builds you can consider viable depends on several things.

    1) Are you willing to scan every boss for FE and stand back and let your merc handle things in case the boss is indeed FE? If the answer to that is "no" then pretty much no melee build is viable. If the answer is "yes" then pretty much every build is viable.

    2) Are you willing to put a lot of time into MFing? Life in melee is so much easier with a shaftstop and a string of ears. Are you willing to sacrifice days and maybe even weeks to get those for example? If so, then again, a lot of builds are viable. If not, then the list is shortened

    3) Are you patient? If you are just interested in beating the game and not having uber kill speed the list increases tenfold again.

    4) Do you exploit poor AI? Do you split up packs? Do you park monsters? If you do that again the list is much longer than it would be if you just charge everything without exploiting poor AI.

    5) Got reflexes? Often a disregarded aspect of playing D2 is your actual skill with the game. True, it's not really a jump & run game but you can do a lot if you've got a hot hand on the keyboard and mouse. Again, the better you are, the longer the list.


    If the answer to all of these is "Yes" then the list of viable builds is incredibly long. I would certianly consider at least all of my septuple sept chars viable under these circumstances.
     
  14. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    As Nf said, given enough time, and enough skill/tactics, you can do very well untwinked with most characters. Only a few require a specific item (wolfbarb and IK barb being the most common) and of course, these can be attained by running bosses with your untwinked character, it'll just take a while.
    Realisitcally, think about:
    Can skills alone give you alot of safety whilst still being able to kill?
    Can your character work with immunes using just skills or merc?
    Is your character fun to play? this is important since untwinked generally take more time and effort, so if its boring, your not going to enjoy it.
    Can your character MF? If your building it to MF for other characters, it needs to be a fast boss killer who can afford to have lower res or life.
    If yes to all 4, i say you should have a go at him untwinked.
     
  15. BuFa

    BuFa IncGamers Member

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    Erm this thread raised a little doubt in my mind.
    When you make an HC char, what are the customs?
    I hear it's to make them untwinked (as in using what you find from the game only, no use of ATMA or other means), but are you allowed to spend some time MFing for better gear for your character? Or are you only allowed to use what you find in your first go through the game? (like no rerunning areas for loot).
    I'd hate to reach guardian status (yeah right my barb isn't even a slayer yet -.-) and call myself untwinked, and discover I'm not.
     
  16. Shakes

    Shakes IncGamers Member

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    The only universal custom for hardcore is to try to never die. ;)

    It's up to you whether you go untwinked or not. Obviously your first HC character is going to have to start out untwinked, since you have no items to twink with! Whether you later trade items between your characters and twink or not is up to you. Some people find the game more fun playing with only what their character finds, others think it a waste to find a good item that's no good for their current character and see it just go to waste.

    As far as a list of "viable" characters ... pretty much anything is viable. Viable just means capable of surviving. Most builds can do that, with sufficient patience and skilled play. Of course, some may be tedious beyond belief, or require endless magic find runs to obtain items to make them work. I think you need to define more clearly what you're looking for. It seems most people say viable when they're actually looking for builds that are actually both good and fun, not merely viable. :)
     
  17. Quickdeath

    Quickdeath IncGamers Member

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    All Builds are NOT Viable

    Just because something is theoretically possible does not mean it is viable. When new players come on the forum and ask for help, why must other players respond with the philosphical statement "All Builds are Viable" These words should be banned from the forum because:

    - they are not helpful to the person who asked for advice, and
    - they are not true.

    What a wicked, stupid, evil thing to say! All builds are not viable. I will give $100 U.S. to the first person who takes an untwinked, merc-less, naked Hardcore Bowbarb through the entire game and kills Hell Baal on Single Player mode. My money will stay in my pocket, because it can't be done. A MeteOrb Sorc is viable, Shakes, a Fishymancer is viable too, But a Hardcore untwinked merc-less, naked Bowbarb is not viable. Period.
     
  18. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    Quickdeath, what shakes said made perfect sense unless you try extremely hard to misunderstand it. Which you managed, I think. ;)
     
  19. crazy_bear

    crazy_bear IncGamers Member

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    I think Quickdeath has a good point here. When someone comes and asks for viable builds, about the least helpful thing someone can say is "all builds are viable."

    For experienced players like yourself, you could take most builds through the game with enough patience, but for new (or at least less experienced) players they are going to get very frustrated just trying any old build.

    I really think some guide links should be included with Quickdeath's List, and then it would be a good sticky for new people to read because this is a common question.
     
  20. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    Dunno, I think the main point is that there's a difference between viable and overpowered. If I ask for viable builds I want that, and not just:

    fishymancer, meteorb sorc, hammerdin, LFzon, winddruid. END OF LIST.

    Imo it's a mistake to enforce just a few cookie cutters and declare all other builds as reserved for pro gamers only. That's really wrong. I think you should encourage people to try various things instead of just saying outright that only very few things work. That is true if you are very inexperienced but by the time somebody starts playing HC I'd assume he has a vague idea of what gloams do and how an Amp Damage curse looks on your char. Failing all else, there's always guides or people that can give pointers.

    Reread the initial post of this thread. It did not ask for beginner chars. It did not ask for the fastest or easiest way to beat HC untwinked. It asked for a complete list of chars that have a realistic chance at beating HC untwinked unmodded. And that list is definetly a lot longer than you think. It is just a matter of how patient you are, both in questing and MFing.

    I think that's generally an important thing: make your answer fit the question. Nobody asked for the top 5 MF chars or the top 5 easiest chars. If you want chars that can wear >700% MF and kill at respectable speed in HC, then you get a short list.


    As for quickdeath's guide... I personally disagree with how a lot of the builds are placed. Imo it would be a better idea if somebody compared that stuff who actually played all or at least most of those. Otherwise it's just an (un)educated guess.

    Prime example is the golemmancer. I am pretty sure he never even played one or that wouldn't be labeled as insane. That I can say for sure because I recently played one and he was just a tiny bit harder than a fishymancer. What is true is that you need a few (around 10 for the whole game) decent items to turn into iron golems. And in all honesty, who doesn't have a couple IK Mauls to spare if he's done a bit of MFing?
     

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