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Lightning Trappers vs. LI

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by Socialism, Sep 1, 2006.

  1. Socialism

    Socialism IncGamers Member

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    Lightning Trappers vs. LI

    Hi guys, looking for experiential analysis based on how effective these different lightning trapper setups work vs. LIs.

    Untwinked!

    Option 1: Lower resist wand switch, pure lightning
    20 SW / CBS / LS / DS

    LI theory: Run around lower resisting LIs, DS. Lure hard LIs towards corpses, DS.

    Boss theory: Hefty 10 x 11 bolt CBS vs. bosses.

    Drawbacks: No additional damage source between trap spam.

    Option 2: Fire Blaster (with/without lower resist wand, possibly 2x +3 shadow on switch)
    20 FB / CBS / LS / DS

    LI Theory: Merc/SM tank under CoS, LR then toss FBs into, DS.

    Boss theory: LS vs. bosses (probably more damage than CBS sans shock web synergy), peppering with FB throughout. Probably has higher overall damage than option 1.

    Drawbacks: Requires FB leading (zzz), cuts out LS synergy, relegates CBS to synergy provision.

    Option 3: Blade fury + “Black†Flail + Treachery
    20 SW / CBS / LS / DS

    LI Theory: SM/merc tank under CoS, toss shuriken (Treachery’s 25% chance to cast venom on striking should provide some damage), DS.

    Boss theory: Crushing blow application rocks.

    Drawbacks: Junk attack rating… will it ever hit anything?

    Thanks for input in advance, pz.

    Socialism
     
  2. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    Best trapper build is (put points in this order): 20LS, 20DS, 20FB, 20 CBS, 20 Sweb.

    Put 1 point into Mindblast + (2) requisites, and 1 point onto BoS + prereq (before 30).

    This is what i use in hardcore, untwinked. Any LI, just cloak of shadows, throw up 5 - 6 fireblast and before they come down lay a couple DS. Boom.

    Note: this build solos every area of Hell difficulty games. Even in hardcore, I load up on all the MF I can find, often time having less than 0 resists. Because of cloak of shadows, I don't get hit at all. When there is a named, cloak + mindblast a nearby one and rain down traps and FB.

    I don't think there is any build in the game where EVERY SINGLE skill you use perfectly synergizes. All the traps synergize together, and BoS allows you to lay those traps and throw those blasts even faster at blind opponents who barely move...perfect. When I do specific runs, I BoS into a group of mobs, throw a few fireblasts into the air, before they hit I lay a couple DS and the second they hit everything dies. Very efficient, one of my favorite builds.
     
  3. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    Depends on what you want to do:
    In the pits (or the bulk of A1-3 really) there are frequent groups that you want to/have to kill that are LI and have no easy corpses near them. Fireblast mows through these, and the non-LIs have low HP so having a weaker LS won't slow you up very much.

    In the CS the monsters are fairly mixed, and the LIs are low HP compared to the non-LIs. This means there will generally be corpses you can get, and those corpses will easily kill the ghosts. Not only the non-LIs have highish life and are rather dangerous so you want them down asap, and full synergies helps there. I couldn't stand fireblast in the CS. The hardest LIs in a CS run are actually the packs of casters on the RoF, you're best off mindblasting and running past them with either build.

    Baal runs fireblast won't be doing much to help if the run is full and balanced, you'll be wanting the the best LS you can get.

    Solo baals are another story... everything is rather random, full synergies help with frenzytaurs, fireblast helps with gloams. Both builds can work, neither is ideal. I'd say fireblast is the better choice for getting there by a bit, synergies is the better choice for 5th wave/baal by a lot.

    E/S/P synergies all the way. There aren't a lot of LIs and you can mindblast them. Infact, I do spam mindblast on everything anyways as if everything is on my side the LS focuses on the one I'm trying to kill as it's immune. The exception being if the boss is LI, in which case I use as little mindblast as I can to get the DS chain going.

    Playing through untwinked for the sake of playing through untwinked... I'd say fireblast. Synergies will get you through just as easily, if not more so, but it involves lots of mindblast/skip and if you're going through for the sake of going through that might not sound fun.

    Either way take the LR wand along, don't forget it speeds you up on non-LIs too.

    A point in dragon flight can save some frustration with the merc beating on the FI while the LS targets the LI, as can teleport charges.

    I've played both builds quite successfully, I'd recommend full synergies as in the places it speeds you up it does so by a lot, in the places it slows you down I'd rather not be. I haven't tried the blade fury one, nor have I met anyone who has, but I've heard accounts of it working nicely. It's one of those things I've always wanted to try when I had the right weapon and I just haven't gotten that weapon yet.

    Edit: Your question of "will it ever hit anything" - iirc ITD on your weapon applies to your throwing stars... with treachery I think you run into trouble. Also I believe you'd be relying on your traps for bosses as ITD doesn't work on them. Don't quote me on this though... this is mostly from reading I did near the start of 1.10 =)
     
  4. Socialism

    Socialism IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the comments--


    ITD doesn't work on bosses/uniques; I guess shopping those wands with +elemental damage / ITD could work.

    Why does Treachery run me into trouble?

    I recognize the awesomeness of LR wands; can get expensive, but worth the speeding up at points, I guess. Essentially I'm looking for a LI killer complementing a weapon switch. I.e. LR on switch; crushing blow weapon on switch, something that lets me do damage while I wait for traps to burn out on switch.

    Blade fury / Obedience would be cool if enchant did more damage... and I'm not even sure if BF can trigger the enchant.

    Hmm. Drawing board.

    Thanks again,
    Socialism
     
  5. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    I completely forgot what treachery was, I was thinking it was a CB weapon.

    No, there is no reason to not use treachery unless you need resists. If you decide to go the blade fury route flesh ripper comes to mind, it's cheap and has a pile of nice mods, but I don't recall if the -50% one carries over or not and if it does I'm not sure if it's enough or not. I always wanted to do it with ghostflame but never found one... though that'd be more for a blade fury build than a hybrid as it lacks CB.
     
  6. Socialism

    Socialism IncGamers Member

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    Would socketing a Fleshripper with "Eth" help out vs bosses and the like? It'd help to semi ITD (haha, it'd help itd) on everything else... CBS can pretty quickly take out bosses though, I'm not too worried about that. I'm just worried about the general LIs populating all the acts. I'd like to killall, if possible...
     
  7. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    I did FB build and I did all Light build. In the end I liked the light better. It was actualy alot easier for me to LR them and light them up then deal with FB. Fast foes are difficult to hit with fire blast. Wands/charges.......they cost nothing if you simply pick up some gold and take an armor to town or some other good seller like wands and staves when you go.

    I dont think there is a foe you cant kill with LR wand and all light except for the tree guys that occasionally spawn doing E/P/S......hell I see them I just make a new game they take to long to kill and its usually a boss pack.

    LI bosses.......pin them against the wall wiht Mindblast, it keeps knocking them back and your merc and shadow can beat it down for you.


    As for the Blades setup..........pretty cheap investment and ITD can help alot. You could even run some AR gear......keep Angelics handy if you want. CB and low damage tears up bosses, and most uniques that have high life but it isnt as effeective vs the normal foes.


    Many people simply dont like the Shadow Master........sure I understand the slowing down of Baal runs so just dont run her when you are in groups, but solo this ***** is bad *** and tears stuff up. The Hench + Master can do alot for you, i always had a Master, my first Trapper she was like 18 invested points.......my second one i didint go as far, I just took her up as needed to keep her "effective" I beleive in the end she was lvl 20 with all the +skills. I didnt have alot of +alls, my claws were +3 trap, same with Ammy.......might of had maybe +5-6.

    Trapper isnt an MFer..........oh sure she can do it but she cant do the main ones fast, takes too long unless you get teleport and even then you should have a Sorc for MF anyway........I never MF on my main characters......I build sorcs to do it expecting them to die a horrible death so my main doesnt.....even though they seem to just not die....


    do what you wish, do it according to how you intend to use her. If you need the FB then go FB, but if you dont, dont......In the end the Sin will fry stuff if she is maxed out if you dont go FB. Hell......you know in group Baals I rarely used anything but DS anyway.....

    If I made one today, and all I do is mostly solo, it would be all light with a Master.......
     
  8. bigD72

    bigD72 IncGamers Member

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    From my experience with my trapper having fireblast, I'd much rather have a fully synergized light trapper with a lower resis wand, shadow, and merc to take out light immunes.
     
  9. Omikron8

    Omikron8 IncGamers Member

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    fire blast + 1 pt shadow master + merc (might or holy freeze)

    i put 20 in fireblast myself for the DS synergy
     
  10. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    I don't see why people are differentiating between fireblast and LS builds. All LS + synergies also synergize FB. So if you wanted the strongest FB, along with the strongest LS, you max the exact same skills.

    And I'm not sure why people say trappers don't run areas fast, or as fast as other builds. For running areas like WSK or the Pit, a good trapper has to be in the top 2. My Javazon (LF + CS/FA + CA) comes close, but 1) requires very good gear to be able to have bow on switch for FA for the LIs and 2) many LI's have more inherent cold resist than fire resist. You have to keep in mind even on Bnet the best way to MF in areas (e.g. Pits) is in 1-person games: uniques/champion drop rate is always the same regardless of players in game, and these are where your uniques will predominantly drop. Having corpse explosion simply destroys any single player game with incredible speeds.

    Like I said, after I got very accustomed to running the pits with my trapper, my LS % usage dropped significantly. Cloak of shadows allows you to take on any range and it keeps them in place for FB when they're LI. I would run into a screen of mobs, throw up a few 4K Fireblasts, and before they hit lay a couple DS's. Boom, entire room cleared, including uniques and champions.

    So remember to keep in mind a FB build can be a fully synergized LS build. Together those skills and synergies work tremendously well together. It is the most complete package for taking on any enemy, in any part of the game, out of all the classes.
     
  11. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    Although this is indeed a fully synergized LS build it is also not a very strong build for full games.

    Regardless of wether drops by uniques and bosses are the same in 1 or 8 player the player didint ask for 1 player game build for MF.

    I will doubt this builds livabilty in all situations.......no fade, no weapon block, no shadow.

    Oh sure, this will kill but it is in fact a glass cannon! Now wiht cloak and MB is is a rather defended glass cannon but it is still a glass cannon......good softcore build.

    False claim
     
  12. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    His build also requires level 95, just for the record.

    And yeah, I like the shadow, but I've decided I prefer the warrior. It only mindblasts when I want it to mindblast.
     
  13. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    I dont like the Warrior putting my traps where she wants them, I like them where i put them.....both have nice things about them.....The Master just does better solo than Warrior IMO
     
  14. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    It is THE FASTEST assassin build for killing in an 8-player game, both bosses and packs of mobs. How is that not strong for a full game?

    I don't get hit. When I run the pits, WSK, or anything else, I simply do not get hit. Any trapper build is safer than any build in the game because of 3 things: 1) laying traps around corners when you can see an enemy and 2) Cloak of Shadows: I use this skill every 20 seconds. When it is on cooldown, I use 3) Mindblast. What's better than having the enemy tank for you? And when you have uniques/champions, you can sit there mindblasting, keeping them back (e.g. minions) while traps kill faster than any assassin build.

    Now you say it lacks survivability because it has no weapon block, fade or SM. I always use a shield; it allows me to frontload my resists onto the shield (e.g. moser's + 2pdiamonds) so that I can use MF gear in other slots. While I do lose some +skills, I have fully synergized LS to make up for that. In previous builds I had put a point into fade, but once I had 75% lightning resist, I never used it, so this time around I have not put a point into it. One point is going to be worthless if you're getting it for the DR, and if you have 75% LR, then you don't need it for the resists. Why else put a point into it? With BoS, I can lay traps and FB those immunes much faster, killing them faster and in turn take less damage. Now you could argue "get gear so you reach fastest throwing breakpoint, then use fade for resists," but why not get resists, and use BoS and save yourself a skill point?

    As for shadow, some swear by them, others don't. Even maxed out, I never liked her very much. In any game above 3 players, she rarely adds any utility or killing speed. She doesn't tank very well. And, YOU DON'T NEED A TANK. Between mindblast holding enemies back + enemy tanking for me, my merc, cloak of shadows and max block on a shield with resists, you have more survivability than ANY CLASS. A Panzer tank? Yes. A glass cannon? no.

    And I stand by my opinion that this build is the most complete, synergized package for taking on every area and enemy in the game. You have no skills that don't synergize. You can take small areas, maggot lairs and immunes with no problem. Even FI + LI can be taken down just by leading them over nearby corpses + merc. I can't think of any build that completely synergizes that comes close.

    I plan out my builds to the end. Because I said max in the specific order, I thought people would understand you Max LS, DS, FB, CBS, and then put your remaining points into Sweb. Most guides include a spell to put the rest of your points into, because I don't know if he wants a 70, 80, 90 or 100 skill build.
     
  15. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    This is beside the point, it is still just FB and not fully syngergized until 95. It might eventually give you a fully synergized LS, but for most it will still just be a FB build.
    Not true, +skills adds to the DR... it is not a synergy.
    Less resist gear, more skill gear.
     
  16. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    Believe me, this build is still primarily LS. It will be used for everything in conjuction with FB only when there are immunes.


    On a side note, those speaking of builds that SOLO 8-player hell games in CS and the like, what are you talking about? Monsters have about 80K HP in there, and many resist resist all 75%, and most other mobs/immunes have resists around 50%, with absolutely rediculous regen rates. I doubt any class, with any gear or build, could solo that.

    Builds that can solo it in 1-3 player games almost require infinity conviction from what I've seen. But even with conviction, in an 8 player game, I have my doubts about anyone class/build.
     
  17. Socialism

    Socialism IncGamers Member

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    Hammerdin, summoner necromancer, bone necromancer, wind druid? (ok I've never played a druid, don't know about this one), Blizzard/fireball sorceress, Meteor/Orb sorceress, Orb/Light sorceress, Poison/Summon necromancer, Poison/Lightning amazons, bow amazons...
     
  18. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    But you've got a gimped LS, making you an FB build, until 95. Unless you pump FB last, in which case you're an LS build not FB. Either way, until 95, you're not both which is why we've been differentiating.
    You greatly overestimate the CS.
     
  19. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    So a build isn't an LS build untill LS and all its synergies are maxed out? So if I put a point into Mind Blast, BoS, Fade, maybe a few into Weapon block, and I have 20 LS/20 DS/20CBS/15 Sweb, it isn't an LS build? Or what if I decide to go 20 LS/20 DS/20 CBS/10 Sweb and 10 SM...that isn't a LS build?

    A build is generally what skill it relies on: if I have 20LS/20DS/20CBS/20Sweb and 20FB, it is stilled called a LS build because that is what I rely on to do my killing.

    About the CS: it is a tough place. I find running WSK/Pits a ton easier. Mobs HP ~10,000, with 8 players it's x4.5, right? 45,000 HP Pit Lords with 75% resist all are tough guys. Throw in immunities to fire, cold and lightning and any build will have difficulty (except maybe hammerdins). E.g. on my LF Javazon, I use 20FA/20CA to take care of LIs. When it takes 3 - 4 hits in a 1-person game to kill a couple, that means it is going to take 13.5 - 18 to kill one.

    As for trappers, I think only with infinity's conviction on merc can they run CS on 8-players...those pit lord guys will regen almost as fast as an 8 - 9K LS can do damage, and corpse explosion is greatly affected by the 8player and fire immunity.
     
  20. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ IncGamers Member

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    The difference is you can have 20/20/20/20/1 and 1 in every Shadow Discipline (minus venom) by 80. The trip to 80 is a one day sort of affair, the trip to 95 not so much.

    But on top of that you're misinterpreting my use of the "LS build", obviously you'll be using LS and DS primarily whether or not FB is maxed, I was simply using "LS build" to distinguish between a trapper with maxed FB and one without, and, as mentioned, they are being distinguished between because until 95 you're not going to have both. I haven't looked at the ladders recently as I haven't played since November, but how many 95+ sins are there? And even out of those that are, how many do you think considered their build done at 95, and how many do you think were going with the 'rest of points to ____' after somewhere in the 75-90 range?


    Edit: The first post you made said something like "you almost need conviction to do it in 1-3 player games" which is a complete joke. You also said "I don't think any build with any gear can solo it in 8 player games". This is also a complete joke. Changing it to "needing infinity for a trapper to do it in 8 player games" however is a bit more reasonable... still harder than you're making it sound, but at least not a complete joke.
     

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