life charms or warcry gc's better?

shockerSS

Diabloii.Net Member
life charms or warcry gc's better?

what would be better, an inven with life charms or an inven with warcry grand charms with 20 lifers below them. im making a bvc barb, and am more concerned with living than making an extra 500 dmg. i want a good 7k life,
 

Ce Olba

Banned
shockerSS said:
what would be better, an inven with life charms or an inven with warcry grand charms with 20 lifers below them. im making a bvc barb, and am more concerned with living than making an extra 500 dmg. i want a good 7k life,
Plain 20s with 4 fhr scs would net you (at pure vitality) with the normal bvc pubsetup a steady 6836 life at lvl 90.

9* WC sks with with 6* life scs would net you a steady 5993 life.

A combination of wc lifers and 20 life scs will net the best results if you're looking for high life.

However, life is overrated on BvCs. I know this from good experience, been playing BvCs for the whole 1.11 -.-' Made three BvCs: 1 pure vita, 2* flexibility setup ones.
 

shockerSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Ce Olba said:
Plain 20s with 4 fhr scs would net you (at pure vitality) with the normal bvc pubsetup a steady 6836 life at lvl 90.

9* WC sks with with 6* life scs would net you a steady 5993 life.

A combination of wc lifers and 20 life scs will net the best results if you're looking for high life.

However, life is overrated on BvCs. I know this from good experience, been playing BvCs for the whole 1.11 -.-' Made three BvCs: 1 pure vita, 2* flexibility setup ones.
what do you mean by flexible barb setups? how did they work out? i just kind of thought a pure vita barb would be good, and im thinking about getting some 3\20\20 charms, i got about 30 hrs to trade
 

Ce Olba

Banned
shockerSS said:
what do you mean by flexible barb setups? how did they work out? i just kind of thought a pure vita barb would be good, and im thinking about getting some 3\20\20 charms, i got about 30 hrs to trade
You're lucky. You get a straight quote from my unfinished guide.

Here:
Ce Olba said:
The Flexibility BvC:

Strength: 103 - Stats from Hellfire Torch - Stats from Annihilus

Why this way? Why this amount? Well, you see, if you have +15 Strength from your Dracul's Grasps, you will end up with 118 Strength with this setup. It will allow you to equip your Grief and Beast with only a Thundergod's Vigor, which is a belt you will want to use at times with a Fortitude or a Duress. However if you plan to never use Thundergod's Vigor with your Axes and an additional armor (Fortitude, 120% Lightning Resistances Armor, Duress), you can instead go with 93 - Stats from Hellfire Torch - Stats from Annihilus. This however, assumes that you have a +30 Strength belt with you. This setup can be useful for some people, however myself I built my current BvC so that he can use his Axes with a Thundergod's Vigor.

Dexterity: 117 - Stats from a single Ravenfrost - Stats from Annihilus - Stats from Hellfire Torch

Why this? It will allow you to use the newly found Hsarus + CoA + Fortitude + Widowmaker setup, as you will only need that one Ravenfrost, as you will need your other ringslot for a +20 STR ring to equip your CoA with Hsarus. This allows great flexibility, the usage of such setups as Arreat's + Angelics + Widowmaker for example. It also allows Hsarus + CoA + Widowmaker + Fortitude, which is another great setup versus some opponents.

Vitality: Whatever you got left at your finishing level.

This is where you will put your points AFTER you've put the points into Dexterity and Strength. This is a no-brainer, as you gain 4 life per point in vitality, making each 5 points 20 life, which is the same as one perfect Small Charm of Vitality. With high enough levels you could support your loss of life by putting points into Vitality. For example, if you lose 60 life from using 3x 40 life GCs, you can gain it back by getting three levels. Now you will have the same life as a character of three levels lower with 3x 20 life SCs instead.

Energy: None.

Seriously, none is needed. Some people might think "How are you supposed to whirl at lower levels with low mana?". Well, the trick is here: You're not supposed to maximize Whirlwind first. You go with an order of Leap/Battle Orders -> Axe Mastery -> Natural Resistances -> Increased Speed -> WW. Why this way? It is party-friendly and it allows you to have low mana cost whirls.
As for Charms, here you go:

Ce Olba said:
Charms:

Charms can either make or break the BvC. It means, if you have good charms, you can succeed, but without good charms you will not succeed. There are several different charm setups with their good and bad sides, and I will try to examine all of them by my best ability and knowledge.

The Classic setup:
33* max/ar/life small charms (SCs)
4* FHR small charms
Annihilus
Hellfire Torch

This setup is the most common among all BvCs. It's also the oldest one. It's a decent setup as it reaches high amounts of damage (if the small charms all have +3 max damage, it will add total +108 average PvP damage), high AR and it will also hit teh 48% FHR breakpoint. However, the only places that it can get mana from would be the small charms, which is bad, as you will want to get resistances from your small charms. Also, this setup lacks any flexibility between battles, as it doesn't offer too much resistances. It's just a plain old damage setup. It works fine, but it's not the best or the worst setup.

The adapted versions of the Classic setup: The mana version and my own version:

The mana version:
3-5* life/mana small charms
28-30* max/ar/life small charms
4* FHR small charms
Annihilus
Hellfire Torch

Now, this setup is already a lot better than the Classic setup, as it offers you quite some mana depending from the amount of +mana on your charms. The additional mana will allow you to triwhirl people for longer and it will also help you last longer it duels due to needing less manapots over a certain period of time. This setup is not so common but some people actually use it. I would recommend this setup for the wealthy people as it's clearly better than the Classical setup. Let's compare:
+16 average PvP damage and 585 AR for this 203 mana. That's clearly worth it. 500 AR makes barely any difference in your chance to it and the added 16 average damage is useless in anything less than 10 hits. You will kill most of your opponents in less than 10 whirls anyways so it doesn't matter. The extra mana helps you use Trang Gloves with your pubsetup as you now can have 10k AR, 40% FCR, ~700 mana, all in 1 package. That's what I would call godly.

My own version of the Classic setup:
12* ar/life small charms
11* max/ar/life small charms
5* life/resistance small charms
5* life/mana small charms
Annihilus
Hellfire Torch

This setup might look quite ugly at first look. It loses "lots" of damage and "lots" of AR for "little" resistances and mana. However, it's actually like the ugly duckling that ended up being a beatiful swan. The setup will give you high enough mana to play with your pubsetup versus any opponents (again, ~700 mana). But also, it will give you a bit of all resistances or lots to a single resistance. This is THE setup for dueling versus fohers or T/Vs or V/Ts, as it will allow you to have, for example, +110% to lightning resistance from the 10 SCs alone. Now if you got 4x fhr/11% lightning resistance scs, you will end up with a whopping +154% Lightning resistance. This will help your stacking by quite a lot. Also, in public games, this setup will make sure that you will not depend on the Anya quests for your resistances. Also, it will add approximately the same amount of AR as the Classical setup will. The only downside is the loss of a little bit of damage. To be honest, the amount of lost damage is ~72, which means nothing until you hit multiple times. This might be new to some people and old to some people. However, I've never seen people suggest this setup, so I will present it. I haven't had the time to experiment this setup on Open, but it should and most likely will work just as fine or even better than the other setups.

Now, let's get down to the setups for people who are on a budget. This is something I've never seen in any other guides. All the other guides simply list the Classic setup as your only choice, which is by far an incorrect assumption, and I'm a living proof of that.

The Poor version of the Classic setup:
33* Life small charms with ~20 AR on each
4* FHR small charms
Annihilus
Hellfire Torch

This setup will give you just as much AR as the classic setup. However, you will not have +damage, unless of course you can have those. If you think about buying small charms, you should value them life>AR>damage. This way is the best possible as you will want to have as high AR as possible while retaining a good amount of AR for Grief to do it's massive damage. The +damage is not as necessary with Grief as it would be with Ethereal Breath of the Dying, as you already have a godly amount of damage. Remember that the +damage has to be +maximum and not +minimum. This charms setup is overall pretty fine, as it will give you lots of AR (you will be looking at ~10-11 000's of AR), high life (6200-6300), and you will also hit the necessary breakpoints.

The Grand Charm version of the Classic setup:
3* AR/life Gran Charms with ~130 AR and ~30 life each
24* life small charms with possible additional mods (mana>resistances)
4* FHR small charms
Annihilus
Hellfire Torch

This is the setup that I use on my BvC. It works really great and he has exactly 9377 AR with his pubsetup. However, he has a few other charms with +AR (such as a 20/33 life/AR small charm, a 5/15 FHR/AR small charm, a 1/12/5 max/AR/FHR small charm). This setup let's the BvC have godly AR with a small sacrifice on their life. When buying the charms, remember to make sure that you have at least 6000 life on lvl 90. If you get 3* 132/40 Grand Charms (highly unlikely though), you can just do 3 more levels and have the same amount of life as a BvC with 33* 20life small charms would have on lvl 90. I plan to base my BvC on this assumption and try to get him 132/40 Grand Charms with a ~40/~50 life/mana Grand Charm to give me ~650 mana with Pubsetup.

If you have mana problems on either of the setups, replace three (3) small charms with a life/mana GC that's as close to 45/59 as possible. This will give you ~600 mana with your pubsetup. If you now decide to wear Trang-Oul's Gloves (which is for the best), you can use your pubsetup in TvTs and versus ANYTHING due to having enough FCR and mana to effectively chase Bonemancers and Sorceresses.

About Hellfire Torch, Annihilus and your Stats:

If you want the best effect on the BvC, you should go for +20 stats and +20% all resistances on both your Hellfire Torch and your Annihilus. However, if you cannot afford this, you should go with plain +20 stats on both. This is top priority. For example, if your BvC has +19 stats Hellfire Torch and +20 Annihilus, he will lose ~19 life. This might not look too bad, but when you multiply that by 10, it IS bad. So Stats>Resistances. Go for highest possible +stats and after that go after +resistances. For the flexibility setup, you should assign your stats as pointed in the start of this guide, where "- stats from Annihilus" and "- stats from Hellfire Torch" are the numbers of +stats you gain from them. For example, with +15 stats on your Torch and +20 stats on your Annihilus, you should have base stats of 68/62, assuming +20 Dexterity from 1 Ravenfrost. This setup has ~96 less life than a BvC with +20 stats from Hellfire Torch and +20 stats from Annihilus would have. This can turn into trouble, especially with the Poor charm setups.
Note: Only doing this because I have a maths test tomorrow and I simply cannot re-write all that. Hope it makes enough sense.
 
isn't it silly to suggest pumping dext by 20 to use a ring with 20 str to equip CoA? I mean, you end up with the same vita whether you put that 20 to str and used a second ravenfrost or used a 20 str ring and pumped 20 dext. Plus, a raven is cheaper and will net you more ar.
 

Ce Olba

Banned
AllGeekedUp said:
isn't it silly to suggest pumping dext by 20 to use a ring with 20 str to equip CoA? I mean, you end up with the same vita whether you put that 20 to str and used a second ravenfrost or used a 20 str ring and pumped 20 dext. Plus, a raven is cheaper and will net you more ar.
Let me explain.

With 20 more STR, you wouldn't gain a thing. Or well, you could use your CoA, but it's not necessarily needed.

Pumping more stats does not even help you at all. At this point, you're flexible enough already.

Also. You add the dexterity so that you can use Widowmaker. This setup can be used vs. V/Ts for example (CoA for DR, Fortitude for LR and max, Widowmaker to get them from fohing to smiting, hsarus + raven to net you a high AR). Also, compared to the angelics version of this (which btw would be 43/67), you gain nor lose nothing. Except that with the Angelic version, you cannot use your CoA without Enigma, which cripples you. You will at least need 63/67 unless you never use TGod's + Fortitude, which I doubt, and that's already 10 stats worse than 63/57. More life=better.

Also, of course you COULD have a crazy rare with 15 dex, 20 str, 120 ar, 60 life, 90 mana and 10 fcr, but that's not even realistic, so I won't even consider it.
 

shockerSS

Diabloii.Net Member
what is a 3\20\20 sc going for these days?

what about a 20 life and 20 are charm?

im wealthy but im not loaded to the titties, i got a 403% ebotdz that i plan on trading for charms, so i hope that gets me a good start.

also, with a beast zerker, does the +dmg make to much of a difference? i got a good grief its +391 but my beast is only 246% but i figure that the beast isnt really there to deal the main dmg, the grief just uses the fant and then works with the beast. right?
 

Ce Olba

Banned
shockerSS said:
what about a 20 life and 20 are charm?
if you can get ~+20 of them, then yes. As you can see, my BvC uses a different setup.

also, with a beast zerker, does the +dmg make to much of a difference? i got a good grief its +391 but my beast is only 246% but i figure that the beast isnt really there to deal the main dmg, the grief just uses the fant and then works with the beast. right?
Grief+Beast does the best damage over time. EBotdZ+Beast after that. And the ED% does not matter, the STR does. My BvC has a 246/38 one. Beast's OW, CB, +STR, fanatiscm all add to the overtime damage, making it greater.
 

rykuss

Banned
Nice info there Ce Olba, I like in-depth discussion especially when it comes to inventory and stash gear. I made pretty much the classic setup you described as it will be my first atempt. Wish I'd saved those huge life/mana GC's now though.(I should've known they'd have a use for something) I'm looking forward to the guide. :thumbsup:

To shocker, if I may make a suggestion on a good way to obtain charms, I would suggest running NM cows. Sure it may sound crazy, but I've run it all season, like I do every season. Hell cows are good too but not nearly as easy as NM, oh and give the pit a try as well. I just hate trading for things that can be easily found. :wink3:

Ce Olba said:
Grief+Beast does the best damage over time. EBotdZ+Beast after that. And the ED% does not matter, the STR does. My BvC has a 246/38 one. Beast's OW, CB, +STR, fanatiscm all add to the overtime damage, making it greater.
If you'd be so kind as to hit the "Ladder Reset" button on your way out, I'd be eternally grateful. I have a BvA on Ladder and NL and it'd sure be nice to have all the possible switch gear on one char. :tongue:
 

Ce Olba

Banned
rykuss said:
Nice info there Ce Olba, I like in-depth discussion especially when it comes to inventory and stash gear. I made pretty much the classic setup you described as it will be my first atempt. Wish I'd saved those huge life/mana GC's now though.(I should've known they'd have a use for something) I'm looking forward to the guide. :thumbsup:
Well then pay a visit to the PvP forum and vote. That will settle if I will put a partial guide here or not.

As to really answer: I like to explain whatever MCM, Luis and Blobs all left un-explained: The reasoning behind the things. I do not want there to be masses a questions left, as it gets boring and repeatitive to answer the same questions over and over again.

If you'd be so kind as to hit the "Ladder Reset" button on your way out, I'd be eternally grateful. I have a BvA on Ladder and NL and it'd sure be nice to have all the possible switch gear on one char. :tongue:
Sorry, I'm not going out. Plus I see no Ladder Reset-button anywhere.
 

Ce Olba

Banned
shockerSS said:
what are those charms worth? my quesiton is still unanswered. 3\20\20 and a 20\20
3/20/20 is a popular dupe, so it's not to be traded on these forums. Also, I have no idea of Ladder or any other realms outside of my own. On Ladder, a pure 3/20/20 will most likely be a bunch of currency.

As for 20/20, a lot less. You shouldn't ask such questions in a barbarian related topic, no offense.
 

shockerSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Ce Olba said:
3/20/20 is a popular dupe, so it's not to be traded on these forums. Also, I have no idea of Ladder or any other realms outside of my own. On Ladder, a pure 3/20/20 will most likely be a bunch of currency.

As for 20/20, a lot less. You shouldn't ask such questions in a barbarian related topic, no offense.
whats wrong with asking questions?? i thought thats what forums were for. i cant afford a lot of max dmg ar and life charms, so the life ar charm is a good alternative.
 

rykuss

Banned
shockerSS said:
whats wrong with asking questions?? i thought thats what forums were for. i cant afford a lot of max dmg ar and life charms, so the life ar charm is a good alternative.
We have a Trade Values forum here for those questions. Might want to go over the rules to see what is and what is not allowed to be discussed here as well. :wink3:
 

skilledlord

Diabloii.Net Member
I can use the extra str for extra damage. helps .

Ce Olba said:
Let me explain.

With 20 more STR, you wouldn't gain a thing. Or well, you could use your CoA, but it's not necessarily needed.

Pumping more stats does not even help you at all. At this point, you're flexible enough already.

Also. You add the dexterity so that you can use Widowmaker. This setup can be used vs. V/Ts for example (CoA for DR, Fortitude for LR and max, Widowmaker to get them from fohing to smiting, hsarus + raven to net you a high AR). Also, compared to the angelics version of this (which btw would be 43/67), you gain nor lose nothing. Except that with the Angelic version, you cannot use your CoA without Enigma, which cripples you. You will at least need 63/67 unless you never use TGod's + Fortitude, which I doubt, and that's already 10 stats worse than 63/57. More life=better.

Also, of course you COULD have a crazy rare with 15 dex, 20 str, 120 ar, 60 life, 90 mana and 10 fcr, but that's not even realistic, so I won't even consider it.
 

Ce Olba

Banned
skilledlord said:
I can use the extra str for extra damage. helps .
The effective increase of 20% ED would be~2.31%s. Now, is 2% more damage worth 192 life? If it was, then you would have to make a Titan barb. Oh, and this number is based off my own BvC while he is wearing Enigma.

The meaning of the certain amounts of increase are the SEVERAL things you gain. With 63 str, you can do this:
Use CoA + Hsarus + Fortitude + rfrost + hl + 20 str/ar ring
Use CoA + TGod's + ravens/angelics + Fortitude + gores + Dracs
Use Arreat's with only Dracul's and your charms.
Use any desirable Enigma (63+ 40+15 = 118, should be enough for any desired Enigma (Usually AP))

With 57 dexterity, you can:
Use CoA + 1 Raven + any ring + Widowmaker
Use Arreat's + any rings + Widowmaker
Use Arreat's + Angelics + Fortitude + Widowmaker vs hammerdins

Now, that's already quite a few things.
 
Top