Leviticus

Underseer

Diabloii.Net Member
Leviticus

OK, I've heard liberal Bible scholars claim that the Bible doesn't teach against homosexuality. I don't have an opinion on the matter one way or another given that I'm a heathen infidel unbeliever, but I do find stuff like this interesting, for the detail if nothing else.

This taken from another board. Just sharing because I found it an interesting read.

Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.

Because these two verses in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) have been used more than any other Bible texts to condemn and reject *** and lesbian people, the following material is given to help you think objectively about traditional abusive use of the Bible regarding homosexuals.

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?

Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.

Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.

Read what **bleep** said in Matthew 7:1-5 about hypocrites who judge others. "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...You hypocrite!"

If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path. **bleep** quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18). **bleep** used Leviticus to teach love. Many false teachers use Leviticus and other writings to condemn, humiliate and destroy. I know which approach seems truly Christian to me. **bleep** never condemned homosexuals or even mentioned anything that could be taken as a reference to sexual orientation.
Sorry about all the "bleeps" but this particular board has a really aggressive language filter. Most of the bleeps are "Jesus."

Anyway, looking at this stuff I have a hard time understanding how anyone can insist that the entire OT is to be taken literally. I mean no one I know follows rules such as are described above. If the OT is supposed to be literal, then why aren't these rules followed?
 

MagiusTheGrey

Diabloii.Net Member
Everytime i think of Biblical references to homosexuals, i always seem to think of Sodom and Gmorrah(Sp?) I know homosexuality wasnt the only reason for the destruction of the city, but i know it didnt help out the cause of the Sodomites either. For this reason, ive always thought that biblically, homosexuals were looked down upon.
 

tarnok

Diabloii.Net Member
Underseer said:
Anyway, looking at this stuff I have a hard time understanding how anyone can insist that the entire OT is to be taken literally. I mean no one I know follows rules such as are described above. If the OT is supposed to be literal, then why aren't these rules followed?
That's an excellent question and there are a couple of reasons, from a Christian perspective. One is that Jesus is recorded as saying that the laws that God gave Israel were added to by man. In other words, not all of the laws as they existed in Jesus' time came directly from God. Specifically Jesus says that Moses gave the people permision to divorce their wives not because God said that's the way it's supposed to be, but because the people demanded it (Mark 10:3-9). So from one point of view it is difficult now to tell which commands are from God and which are for the convinience of the people.

Second is the decision of the apostles regarding gentile (non-Jewish) believers. When gentiles first began to believe in Jesus there was a debate among the apostles as to whether or not the new believers would be required to follow Jewish law. It was decided that only three requirements would be made of the gentile believers: to refrain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality (Acts 15:28-29).

Obviously "sexual immorality" is a fairly vague term. As for homosexuality, whether or not it is a sin is not an issue for me since I'm not ***. For those who are it is clearly a matter between that person and God. I certainly am not going to offer an opinion since the cost of teaching others something wrong about God's law is inestimable (Mathew 5:19).
 

felstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
Eventually people will figure out that it's all a fairy tale and move on to another irrational belief system.

I predict that in the future that Elvis will become the new Messiah, and people will worship the fat rhinestoned freak. People will wear little gold toilets around their necks and sing "blue suede shoes" horribly off key.
 

Koko Puff

Diabloii.Net Member
Forgive me father for I have sinned, I have sinned deeply because the lingerie I bought my mother is of mixed fabrics.
 

Nword

Banned
felstorm said:
Eventually people will figure out that it's all a fairy tale and move on to another irrational belief system.

I predict that in the future that Elvis will become the new Messiah, and people will worship the fat rhinestoned freak. People will wear little gold toilets around their necks and sing "blue suede shoes" horribly off key.
That or worship Michael Jackson. The one who found enlightenment through kids.... :teeth:
 

Underseer

Diabloii.Net Member
That's an excellent question and there are a couple of reasons, from a Christian perspective. One is that Jesus is recorded as saying that the laws that God gave Israel were added to by man. In other words, not all of the laws as they existed in Jesus' time came directly from God. Specifically Jesus says that Moses gave the people permision to divorce their wives not because God said that's the way it's supposed to be, but because the people demanded it (Mark 10:3-9). So from one point of view it is difficult now to tell which commands are from God and which are for the convinience of the people.
OK, that's one vote from the non-literalist side.

Any literalists want to explain why they don't perform animal sacrifices on the Sabbath?
 

dantose

Diabloii.Net Member
The dietary rules of the old tedtament are specifically removed in the new testament (The lord made all animals clean). the laws against homosexuality are reiterated in both Romans and 1 Corinthians.
 

Koko Puff

Diabloii.Net Member
While we're on the OT.

Reed Sea Vs. Red Sea

1. The Jews crossed the Reed sea, not the Red sea, the greeks cut off a letter in translation.

2. It's not the Red sea because the Red sea is deep and the Jews would have to rockclimb in and out of the sea.

3. A few hours earlier a volcano erupted on Cyprus which would make water recede, like in Tsunami's, hence receding waters which is prone to the Reed Sea.

Noahs Ark:

1. Since christians believe in creationism, that means god created 400 million seperate land species.

3. Food for 100 days.

4. In an ark smaller than the size of LA.

5. If noah were to load 24/7 he would need to load 500 animals a second. At a reasonable rate, it would take him 72 years to load those animals.

6. Don't give me gripe about "Noahs flood was just for that region!" The bible said god flooded the world, it's in the bible it must be fact ;)

Done ranting and raving... just blowing off steam from defending *** rights in a christian forum.
 

Underseer

Diabloii.Net Member
tarnok said:
I don't think that's what I said.
Then you sacrifice animals on the Sabbath and avoid mixed fabrics? You believe there is a firmament separating the sky from the water above? You believe the Sun orbits the Earth? You think it's OK to dismember children when they make fun of bald people?

Every Christian has to look at some part of the Old Testament and not take it 100% literally. How much of the Old Testament falls under that category will vary widely from Christian to Christian, but I find it hard to believe anyone takes the entire thing literally.
 

felstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
dantose said:
The dietary rules of the old tedtament are specifically removed in the new testament (The lord made all animals clean). the laws against homosexuality are reiterated in both Romans and 1 Corinthians.
So Paul is speaking for Jesus. Jesus = Paul. I see.

And you are all willing to take the word of a guy who was in all probability a closted homo himself.

Sure thing. I mean how many guys a week do we get that claim to speak directly to Jesus? With the exception of GWB.. that is.

Funny how that works. Statistically, the most agregious pedophiles are white male, and often devoutly Christian, usually figurehead of the Church.

What is that saying?

Oh yes.

"Jesus loves the little children."
 

tarnok

Diabloii.Net Member
Underseer said:
Then you sacrifice animals on the Sabbath and avoid mixed fabrics? You believe there is a firmament separating the sky from the water above? You believe the Sun orbits the Earth? You think it's OK to dismember children when they make fun of bald people?
First off, that's some horrible butchering of the text. Second, no, I don't make sacrifices etc, but as I said that is because it was decided that gentiles were not required to follow Jewish law, not because I think the OT is supposed to be metaphorical or something.
 

dantose

Diabloii.Net Member
felstorm said:
So Paul is speaking for Jesus. Jesus = Paul. I see.

And you are all willing to take the word of a guy who was in all probability a closted homo himself.

Sure thing. I mean how many guys a week do we get that claim to speak directly to Jesus? With the exception of GWB.. that is.

Funny how that works. Statistically, the most agregious pedophiles are white male, and often devoutly Christian, usually figurehead of the Church.

What is that saying?

Oh yes.

"Jesus loves the little children."
I was in the middle of writing a point by point response to this when I realized it would be more effective to simply report the post.
 

Underseer

Diabloii.Net Member
tarnok said:
First off, that's some horrible butchering of the text. Second, no, I don't make sacrifices etc, but as I said that is because it was decided that gentiles were not required to follow Jewish law, not because I think the OT is supposed to be metaphorical or something.
OK, the NT says there are parts of the OT that you don't have to follow. Which means you're not interpreting those parts literally. QED.

Now, explain the firmament part and the Sun orbiting the Earth.
 

tarnok

Diabloii.Net Member
Underseer said:
OK, the NT says there are parts of the OT that you don't have to follow. Which means you're not interpreting those parts literally. QED.

Now, explain the firmament part and the Sun orbiting the Earth.
I think you and I are operating from different definitions of the word "literal." Tell me which verses you are talking about, because specifically I don't recall anything regarding either the earth or the sun orbiting anything, and I think you have muddled up the bit about the firmament.
 

felstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
dantose said:
I was in the middle of writing a point by point response to this when I realized it would be more effective to simply report the post.
Struck a nerve have I?

Like I said.

Christians can dish it out, but they really can't take it.

Allow me to cry you a river. :hanky:
 

tarnok

Diabloii.Net Member
felstorm said:
Struck a nerve have I?

Like I said.

Christians can dish it out, but they really can't take it.

Allow me to cry you a river. :hanky:
Actually I have to agree with dantose. You're pushing blatant flaming/trolling.
 
I have a question. This is a little off topic but I've been wondering this. My friend said you MUST be baptised to be able to go to heaven. Is this true? I asked him where it said that in the Bible but he wasn't sure.

Oh one more thing. The same person said your not supposed to have a kitchen in the church grounds(not inside just in the church complex). What about this, is it against God to have a kitchen in your church?
 
Koko Puff said:
While we're on the OT.

Reed Sea Vs. Red Sea

1. The Jews crossed the Reed sea, not the Red sea, the greeks cut off a letter in translation.
How can you tell for sure they cut off the e? The words for reed and red are fairly different in latin.
Koko Puff said:
2. It's not the Red sea because the Red sea is deep and the Jews would have to rockclimb in and out of the sea.
So? It does not give a time frame for this event. It could take days.
Koko Puff said:
3. A few hours earlier a volcano erupted on Cyprus which would make water recede, like in Tsunami's, hence receding waters which is prone to the Reed Sea.
If you are saying they crossed the shallow Reed sea then how do you explain the Egytion army not attacking them. Since you don't beleive miracles such as the parting of the sea then you obviously don't beleive in the firewall.

Koko Puff said:
Noahs Ark:

1. Since christians believe in creationism, that means god created 400 million seperate land species.
God is just that a God. He could do what ever he wanted.
Koko Puff said:
3. Food for 100 days.
Read on.
Koko Puff said:
4. In an ark smaller than the size of LA.
Read on.
Koko Puff said:
5. If noah were to load 24/7 he would need to load 500 animals a second. At a reasonable rate, it would take him 72 years to load those animals.
Read on.
Koko Puff said:
6. Don't give me gripe about "Noahs flood was just for that region!" The bible said god flooded the world, it's in the bible it must be fact ;)
It could in fact just be that area. The "Noah" story has been found all over the world. Including in the Americas.
Koko Puff said:
Done ranting and raving... just blowing off steam from defending *** rights in a christian forum.
Since when did this thread become dominated by Christians? As far as I have seen the people that beleive in any higher power here are outnumbered greatly.
 
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