Let's talk about prisoner abuse!

Let's talk about prisoner abuse!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20050326/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prisoner_abuse_iraq_9

That's really all I've got, I just didn't want this to get buried under the Schiavo non-story. I find it a little cute that Congress stepped into baseball and Schiavo to prop those stories up right as the military was legally forced to reveal the tip of this iceburg.

If documents released under a FOIA request are revealing new cases of prisoner abuse, how much more widespread is this? When and to what extent do you think it will affect our PR efforts among our allies? How do these actions check the spread of WMD, defend America, or promote freedom or democracy?
 

llad12

Diabloii.Net Member
I am not surprised at this report. It fits into a pattern of widespread systemic abuse of prisoners that we have seen at Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan, and Gitmo Bay.

IMO, those who should be ultimately responsible for these abuses will never accept it or be charged in their role. The only ones who will be punished will be the low men on the totem pole ... the grunts and perhaps a few lower-ranking officers.

-----------

Fox News adds a little more to your article:

The investigator ruled that troops were responsible for the broken jaw of a 20-year-old detainee who had been rounded up with his father, a suspected member of the Fedayeen Saddam guerrilla group.

The records released Friday also contained details of several other abuse investigations. In one case, soldiers admitted they had rounded up suspected looters near Baghdad in the summer of 2003, then stripped them naked and told them to walk home.

The staff sergeant in charge of that unit said he knew what he did was wrong but that he wanted to humiliate the looters so much they would never return. The sergeant said he was afraid another unit at their base had shot and killed a looter without being punished and would shoot others.

"I didn't want to kill him," the sergeant wrote of one looter, "so I decided to teach him a lesson."
 
Well, since some constitution-hating, freedom-loathing, authoritarian-loving right winger is going to do it anyway:

Screw them! I think what the troops did was great and they should keep doing it! Who cares about the prisoners, they're all terrorist and would do far worse to us!

Bah.
 

MithrandirX

Diabloii.Net Member
The records released Friday also contained details of several other abuse investigations. In one case, soldiers admitted they had rounded up suspected looters near Baghdad in the summer of 2003, then stripped them naked and told them to walk home.

The staff sergeant in charge of that unit said he knew what he did was wrong but that he wanted to humiliate the looters so much they would never return. The sergeant said he was afraid another unit at their base had shot and killed a looter without being punished and would shoot others.

"I didn't want to kill him," the sergeant wrote of one looter, "so I decided to teach him a lesson."

Next time, this guy will probably just kill them to avoid prisoner "abuse" scandals.
 

Steve_Kow

Banned
While I didn't bother to read the article--stripping and humiliating looters was often done by Arabs who organized themselves to protect their neighborhoods. I.E it's a common practice for those people.
 

Drosselmeier

Diabloii.Net Member
Steve_Kow said:
While I didn't bother to read the article--stripping and humiliating looters was often done by Arabs who organized themselves to protect their neighborhoods. I.E it's a common practice for those people.
Even if that is true, what does it have to do with anything?
 

ScanMan

Diabloii.Net Member
IDupedInMyPants said:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20050326/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prisoner_abuse_iraq_9

That's really all I've got, I just didn't want this to get buried under the Schiavo non-story. I find it a little cute that Congress stepped into baseball and Schiavo to prop those stories up right as the military was legally forced to reveal the tip of this iceburg.

If documents released under a FOIA request are revealing new cases of prisoner abuse, how much more widespread is this? When and to what extent do you think it will affect our PR efforts among our allies? How do these actions check the spread of WMD, defend America, or promote freedom or democracy?

Hello Duped,

From you link:

According to the report, the abuse included:

_ Forcing detainees to perform exercises such as deep knee bends for hours on end, to the point of exhaustion.

_ Blowing cigarette smoke into the sandbags the prisoners were forced to wear as hoods.

_ Throwing cold water on the prisoners in a room that was between 40 degrees and 50 degrees.

_ Blasting the detainees with heavy-metal music, yelling at them and banging on doors and ammunition cans.

If this is what entails "prisoner abuse" in the eyes of the press, my response is a big "so what".

Oh yeah, let me include a "big ****ing deal".

How do you suggest that we treat imprisioned bad guys? Should we treat them as bad guys, or should we arrage for hookers to give them blow jobs in hope that they might give up vital info in the throes of orgasm?
 
If this is what entails "prisoner abuse" in the eyes of the press, my response is a big "so what".
Actually it's abuse in the eyes of whatever soldier wrote that particular report, so I'll assume that you hate the troops. I'm also gonna go out on a limb and guess that his point of reference for defining abusive activity came from stuff like the Geneva Convention and internal definitions of abuse since it was an internal investigation. All I'd suggest is we stick to our obligations, one of which the Geneva Convention is. At the very least I'd think we'd all want to treat captured combatants the same way we'd like our combatants to be treated if captured.

If you're looking for me to say it, yes, subjecting someone to those things for hours at a time every day would indeed be torturous, one of them is even potentially deadly. If that's your idea of a good time then consider this my idea of taking back my RSVP for your Christmas party.

Edit: Just out of curiosity, if a parent were on trial for child abuse and it was documented that he did those things to his child, would you say he's guilty or not guilty?
 

ScanMan

Diabloii.Net Member
IDupedInMyPants said:
Edit: Just out of curiosity, if a parent were on trial for child abuse and it was documented that he did those things to his child, would you say he's guilty or not guilty?
Hmmm....let's see....if the parents suspected the kid was going to go off and gun down a bunch of his classmates then I would have to say no.

I guesss it's all relative: prisoners captured as enemy combatants under the provisions of the Geneva Conventions (in the uniform of the enemy) should be treated as POW's under the rules of those conventions. Those who do not meet the specifications of "enemy combatants" under the Conventions should be treated as the Conventions say they should: summary execution.

Exactly what is the "uniform" of those blowing up civilians in Iraq?
 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
Not to condone the abuse described in the article in any way, but how do you get people to talk about their suspected terrorist activity if the worst you can threaten them with is cold water and loud music, and even that's illegal? It seems to me that if you want prisoners, who hate everything you stand for, to tell you what you want to know you have to have leverage, i.e threats you can make good on. If making prisoners sufficiently uncomfortable to talk isn't ok, then we have to be satisfied with poor intelligence. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 

Drosselmeier

Diabloii.Net Member
Moosashi said:
If making prisoners sufficiently uncomfortable to talk isn't ok, then we have to be satisfied with poor intelligence. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Information gathered using torture is not good intelligence. If I tortured you good and proper I could probably make you confess you masterminded Oklahoma City bombing.

Capturing suspected terrorists and interrogating them using these methods is just stupid. Most of them will confess something I bet, even though they might not have done anything.

EDIT: Uhhh... Spelling. Bedtime.
 

ScanMan

Diabloii.Net Member
Drosselmeier said:
Capturing suspected terrorists and interrogating them using these methods is just stupid.
That's correct...we should subject them to the punishment perscribed under Geneva......

Summary Execution.
 

maccool

Diabloii.Net Member
ScanMan said:
Exactly what is the "uniform" of those blowing up civilians in Iraq?
Hilarious! What you're saying amounts to, "we don't know who they are, but they look funny so we get to shoot them."

If those damn insurgents would just dress up proper. Well, until Jmerv gets here with his (in my opinion) increasingly irrational response, I'll make do:

some pill popping neocon boot licker on 4 May 2004 said:
I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?
They obviously deserve it. That Duped speaks of Freedom of Information and Democracy obviously means he's a terrorist. It is your duty to capture him. Dissent should not be tolerated.
 

ScanMan

Diabloii.Net Member
maccool said:
Hilarious! What you're saying amounts to, "we don't know who they are, but they look funny so we get to shoot them."
That's correct...research the Conventions as to the treatment of "irregulars"

What the Conventions say is that anyone who is "under arms" in a combat area is treated by the laws of combat.....and anyone who is "under arms" who is out of uniform is a spy or an irregular, and therefore subject to summary execution after being captured.
 

olie0923

Diabloii.Net Member
First off, the soldiers who are doing this aren't doing it b/c they think it is cool and fun. They are/were being directed to do it from higher up. Yes, there are a few who would do it just b/c but you would have that in ANY military. If anyone should be punished for the actions it should be the higher ups (ie: colonels, generals, etc.).

If it appears as if they are having fun then it is probably their way of dealing with it. I'm not saying that some of them don't get off on it but I seriously doubt if all of them do.

As far as torturing prisoners.......torturing prisoners for information is an ancient tactic used by all militaries to gain information. It has been used forever and will continue to be used, at least until they make something to read someone's mind. So, I don't really see how that can be considered stupid.
 

SassyChickyMomma

Diabloii.Net Member
olie0923 said:
First off, the soldiers who are doing this aren't doing it b/c they think it is cool and fun. They are/were being directed to do it from higher up. Yes, there are a few who would do it just b/c but you would have that in ANY military. If anyone should be punished for the actions it should be the higher ups (ie: colonels, generals, etc.).

If it appears as if they are having fun then it is probably their way of dealing with it. I'm not saying that some of them don't get off on it but I seriously doubt if all of them do.

As far as torturing prisoners.......torturing prisoners for information is an ancient tactic used by all militaries to gain information. It has been used forever and will continue to be used, at least until they make something to read someone's mind. So, I don't really see how that can be considered stupid.

not to mention, look at the torture our own soldiers have been put through over the many years in the many wars and conflicts. my dad told us horrific stories of the awful crimes against nature that he saw in viet nam. *(i wont go into detail about soldiers hung upside down naked with their testicles in their mouths!)* but the media has a way of turning our citizens against our military men and women. the things that were done to those prisoners, no doubt, it was terrible. but it was also nothing compared to what we have seen in our own history and our soldiers do not deserve to be treated like monsters.
 
SassyChickyMomma said:
but it was also nothing compared to what we have seen in our own history and our soldiers do not deserve to be treated like monsters.
1) The ones who torture prisoners do indeed deserve to be treated like monsters, because they are monsters.

2) I'm not really following your reasoning. You're essentially saying that we have carte blanche to do it forever because it happened to us a few times in Vietnam. That's like saying a woman got raped once so all women have the right to go out and chop men's balls off.

And Scanman, if you want to summarily execute people who are summarily executable under the Geneva Convention, by all means knock yourself out. Once they're taken prisoner, however, there are rules. "Summarily" tends to imply a fairly brief window of oppurtunity, in that it would have to be done pretty much immediately to be considered summary. Just because you could have killed them at one point and chose not to doesn't mean you can do anything you want with them later on, that's pretty much the entire point of the Convention and any set of engagement rules that have ever been drawn up.
 

maccool

Diabloii.Net Member
ScanMan said:
That's correct...research the Conventions as to the treatment of "irregulars"

What the Conventions say is that anyone who is "under arms" in a combat area is treated by the laws of combat.....and anyone who is "under arms" who is out of uniform is a spy or an irregular, and therefore subject to summary execution after being captured.

That may be the case sensu stricto and I can't dispute your personal interpretation of international laws. But the U.S. public was sold on a totally different reason for kicking the **** out of of same lame ass country. The 4th reason if memory serves. The reason after WMD, imminent threat, crazy dictator.

Shouldn't we - by we, I mean people who have the honor to serve and defend idiots like you and me - err on the side of caution? That seems like it would win more hearts and minds than panties on the head.
 

SassyChickyMomma

Diabloii.Net Member
IDupedInMyPants said:
1) The ones who torture prisoners do indeed deserve to be treated like monsters, because they are monsters.

2) I'm not really following your reasoning. You're essentially saying that we have carte blanche to do it forever because it happened to us a few times in Vietnam. That's like saying a woman got raped once so all women have the right to go out and chop men's balls off.

And Scanman, if you want to summarily execute people who are summarily executable under the Geneva Convention, by all means knock yourself out. Once they're taken prisoner, however, there are rules. "Summarily" tends to imply a fairly brief window of oppurtunity, in that it would have to be done pretty much immediately to be considered summary. Just because you could have killed them at one point and chose not to doesn't mean you can do anything you want with them later on, that's pretty much the entire point of the Convention and any set of engagement rules that have ever been drawn up.
first off, they are not monsters. they are soldiers defending our freedoms and our homeland. second, they deserve better representation in this whole mess considering that they are merely pawns in the generals game of chess. third, you took my post out of context. i do not think that we can act out any disgusting war crimes because of viet nam, OR THE OTHER COUNTLESS WARS & MILITARY ENGAGEMENTS, i am saying that the media is blowing this junk WAY out of context and that americans do not deserve the reputation for being grotesque animals. and like i said earlier, it IS terrible. but it is not NEW. the way it is being treated is like "oh my how could they do something like that!?" as in we are the first country to do it. i am not saying that it is right, or even acceptable. but i am saying it is the price of war. and as olie and many before him said, the soldiers were ordered to do it, so they are not the only ones that have to be held accountable, but even more so the chain of command should be dealt with accordingly.

AND don't get me started on the whole September 11th tragedy! my god, these guys got royal treatment compared to what OUR CITIZENS went through!
 
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