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late game suggestion

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Picasso, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. Picasso

    Picasso Diabloii.Net Member

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    late game suggestion

    I find the following appealing, but i want to know how other people think about it:

    Consider being a high lvl character with powerful equipment. Maybe having friends with equally strong characters. Until very recently, in diablo2, what you could do was ... boring, because there was no challenging late game. Then Uber Diablo was introduced, and later uber tristram. These two are entertaining to a certain point. I say to a certain point, because Uber Diablo required a lot of luck to encounter him, and uber Tristram required a lot of preparation work (searching the keys).

    My suggestion is now the following:
    Diablo3 needs a place where you encounter difficult enemies, without having to go your way through myriads of weak creatures.
    I have in mind something like a tower where each level is as big as catacombs-lvl-4(andariel), and where each level contains (at least) one tough monster. Dying anywhere in the tower resets the tower (like ancients) and you need to start from beginning.
    Maybe the first levels are non-random, you know what you encounter, they are very hard, maybe they dont give any rewards (no xp, no gold, no items).
    Maybe then at level 5 you encounter something that has a random part (lighting immune? fire immune?) and gives a strong reward for one part of the game (for example he gives a lot of experience, or he gives a lot of gold, or he gives a strong sword, or a strong orb).
    And then level 6 would give a strong reward for another part of the game.
    So that, lets say you want a good helmet, you know that you need to reach level 11 or level 25 to get one.
    The levels could be designed in a way that you are at some point forced to go in groups or use different skills and weapons (imagine this tower in d2, half the levels have enemies with magic damage immunity, so a pure hammerdin is worthless)


    One important characteristic of the tower would have to be, that it is under no circumstance the best way to get something:
    Lets say you want to farm gold. There are some levels that give a strong gold reward, but due to the fact that it is so hard, it does not make sense to do "tower-runs" to farm gold.
    Lets say you want to get items. As not every level gives items, and as the levels are very difficult, it does not make sense to farm there.
    The important thing is: a tower-run only (really ONLY) makes sense if you want to have a challenging gameplay.
    The real good rewards could come very late:
    Lets say, after 2 hours of hard fighting you reach level 15, the first level where _really_ good items drop (for example really good gloves).
    And if you are interested in the uber-orb, you would have to go level 28, a nearly impossible endeavor.

    Does this sound to WoW-ish (although i never played WoW) or does it just sound stupid?
     
  2. cyguard

    cyguard Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    Very good idea! :thumbup:
     
  3. Gamekk

    Gamekk Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    Forced groups is a bad idea for this game. Some players will then never be able to have some items just because they play solo.

    There is nothing that says it will not be the best way to farm gold/item/whatever.

    And I'm not sure I get your point... I mean, it won't be necessary - since you can find more gold and items somewhere else. But you talk like it should be necessary, since the best items can be found there (because people won't go there for gold or exp if they want to optimize their gaming time). So, everybody will have to try and run towers, and the whole community of serious gamers will just try to run it as fast as possible to get all the best things, you know?

    It doesn't solve any problem in my mind and the idea is not very creative. A tower with ascending levels is pretty boring.

    I mean, if you want to make end-game competitive, people won't purposely go in a very hard place if it doesn't give (or gives? I didn't get your point) the best stuff. But then, if it's necessary just to beat it one time, people won't get entertained very much and end-game will be... nothing.
     
  4. Picasso

    Picasso Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    the trick would be:

    if u just want to farm something specific (like gold, experience, items, runes, whatever), there are always other areas that are more effective
    lets say it turn out that some area (baal run) is easy for certain character builds (hammerdin) and is good for farming something specific (experience), then everybody would go baalrunning for experience. or mephisto-running for items.

    lets say mephisto can drop the best items of the game. other monsters can drop these items too, but farming mephisto is the fastest way to get these items.
    totally independent of that fact, there is the tower. in the tower, there is no run that takes only 2 minutes, but it takes two hours before you even reach levels where the rewards are not marginal. (unless you die. in that case you have to start at level 1 again)
    so the towers flair would be its difficulty

    in d2:
    you can go hunt runes by farming the tower-witch or by bringing new characters to the forge quests. Both options are extremly boring.
    imagine now that there was a third possibility: with a real good character (that does not only deal one kind of damage like the hammerdin) you could try reaching level 17 of the tower, which would take about the same time as bringing a new character to hell forge (unless you die, of course). and, like in hell forge, the reward would be a high chance for a decent rune.
    It would be more time consuming and much more challenging to get there, but it would be much more entertaining.

    maybe the idea sucks, i dont know
     
  5. SlechtWeerBeer

    SlechtWeerBeer Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    How would killing monsters in the Tower be boring, and killing monsters in the Idea-Presented-In-This-Thread not? It's the same thing, but it takes longer and is harder.


     
  6. Picasso

    Picasso Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    all monsters in the act1-tower of d2 are boring because they are unchallenging. even the final boss (the tower witch hunter thingy) is just there to be slaughtered.

    my idea-tower-of-this-thread would bring a challenging and entertaining boss monster on each and every level.
    you wouldnt just rush through the levels because you must to reach the final boss, but you would have to really fight through each of the levels because in each level there is the boss that you need to kill before you can proceed

    i must agree that this does not sound like a huge difference, but in my imagination it kind of did ...
     
  7. GuardianHadriel

    GuardianHadriel Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    too easy to obtain wanted items
     
  8. Typoko

    Typoko Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    Hi!

    So you pretty much want raid instances for less players in D3 and then have random stat on the last boss? Other comparsion, and pretty similiar would be (yes i know this is in other games also) the pit in Zelda: Twilight princess, where you fight few levels and then you get a reward. you fight more levels and then you get some reward. if you die you gotta start all over again...

    Not saying they are boring, but it won't last long when people are speed running these places like mad monkeys in a barrel and then someone goes and kicks the barrel down the hill. Idea of these in RPG games pretty much is one time reward. You get the nice extra hp or an item to grab your enemies head and swing him around. After the first time you have done it, it starts to repeat itself. In Diablo the idea is to get cool items and kick bottocks in sveral planes of excistance, not to get something done once.

    If you ask me it would be mini version of the actual game in HC mode. You make a char, run down some levels that start out easy and get harder every level. At the end you die eventually and start a new character. The difference would be that you would have to be beating the first levels with your left hand behind your back and eyes closed to beat the last levels for it to have any sense, and this means it would be reeeaaaalllllyyy tidious. Atleast when you start a new character you won't have all the skills at the start.

    PS: not trying to be a dink, but i don't think that this would add anything but speedrunning to the game.
     
  9. nukka

    nukka Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    I like the idea a lot, except for one thing, specific item drops. I think this tower shouldnt have a reward after each level. Instead it should have a gold chest with good odds at dropping runes or uniques, the tower should be their mainly for fun, but partially for items. Or maybe their could be a tc89 area and it is the tower. :)
     
  10. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    For all those opposing the idea of a survivial mode/tower/dungeon challenge for hi-level characters (which i'm positively supporting as an excellent end game content .. proven by experience) who say that people will play that mode to only hoard items ... well there are many ways to prevent that and make it only for those who are really skilled and worthy.

    Before you enter tower through a special portal first you have to pay entrance fee (in gold) .... after you fight for like 10 levels you are given the option to pay an exit fee and exit (portal maintenance costs XD) with all the items you obtained or continue futher.

    From here on things get crazy ... harder monsters ... powerful bosses ... many monster combinations not seen in the game .. environmental hazards ... and of course lots of good items ... but where is the catch !!!!

    If you die ... you get thrown out without any of the items you obtained in the tower (you only get to keep the items you entered the tower with) .... if you wanted to exist with them you have to do when the game asks you every 10 levels whether you want to pay exist gold fee and exist with items you obtained or continue ... if you choose to continue you risk dying .. losing the items you collected in the tower and of course resetting the tower (you have to repay entrance fee and start from floor 1).

    Results ... a thrill similar to HC mode if not more since if you get something (a good item for example) you can use it for something else ... it's that win it or lose it thrill that would make that mode a great experience.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    It will truly be a survival mode since you will be fighting with your claws ans teeth for your life and items you want to keep .... fighting in order to pass 10 levels without dying to get the chance to exit the tower with the items and always make sure when you reach the every 10 levels check point that you have enough gold to pay the exit fee XD (which can be extremely hard later on .. Ex: .. from 20 to 30 will be a walk in the park compared to tower levels from 50 to 60)
     
  11. Picasso

    Picasso Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    hell yeah

    that would definetly rock. and depending on how you balance all this, you can really make sure the tower is not the one place where everybody farms, but its the place where you can put your skills and equipment to the test

    i dont know if that kind of area is very obvious, but i would like to see that suggestion (knight_wolf's) posted in the blizzard forums
     
  12. Typoko

    Typoko Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    Hi!

    I like how you made this idea sound a bit better but it still has huge problems. Why gold fee for easy 10 levels? If you aren't getting anything from that just skip it and go to the hard part. If something like this is implemented it should not be tidious. Forced to grind 10 levels that would take lets say 4 minutes. So thats 4 minutes of complete boredom if you instagib every enemy that comes across.

    The idea that you will have to quit the tower to get what you have earned, but this just makes it more time consuming. If you could beat 30 levels and not die 99/100 times would it be fun anymore to grind all those levels just to get to the next stage? And eaven then you have most likely whacked some moles there too. Content that can be done by running trough everything without getting a scratch should not be forced on to do. This is one of the great things that D2 lets people do. You can just run past the mobs and hit the boss down.

    Now someone might say that the levels aren't that easy that you can just run trough the levels. Well sorry to say it, but there has to be some difficulty in the next stage, and when you can do the stage 30. the first 10 stages are pretty much clicking with mouse and "Come ooooonn.... I know you want to eat my brains but just go away so i can get to the next stageeeeee...."

    Ofc letting people start from certain stage is pretty hard to do. It could be so that after you have passed level 30 you can start at level 10. (assuming that this kind of thing had alot of levels). That would help it a bit but still you would have to grind alot of stuff.

    I know someone would want these kinds of things just for fun. Hell i would like things like this just for fun! The problem is that there is always alot of people whining about it not being balanced and not fun at all. Sadly, games nowadays have to think about most of the gamers, no matter what they think about something that is cool to you. "Just for fun" hardly anymore exists in games.

    If anything like this was in the game, i would most likely run it quite often and not whine about it. As we are on these forums atleast a year away from the game release i like to say what is wrong in this concept IMO.

    PS: comparing this to HC is nothing. You lose maximum of hours grinding. In HC you lose the character.


     
  13. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    Still the monsters are totally random (so some times some combinations can be hard to deal with .. not to mention random modifiers too) and spawn in very large numbers even if they are weak ones .. don't forget you have limited resources and no town to go back to ... it's you or them from level 1 ... it's just that the 1st 10 levels are easy compared to the hellish nightmare you will go through later.

    And nobody is forcing you to play the first 10 levels and exist .. you can play further if you want .. and nobody will also force anyone to play this mode .. since it ain't for item farming as it is for skill showcasing and pure challenge that ignores normal game balance and throws all kinds of stuff in the face of the poor player.

    No it will be equally if not more fun .. since every time you enter it is a completely different experience like i mentioned above .. making it a side mode allows for a range of randomization and crazy monster roaster not possible to have in normal game.

    Also .. door to next floor in tower won't open unless you kill everything that was thrown at you ... and that won't be one bit easy since monsters attack in large waves from all directions on each floor (with small break time in between to rearrange your items and take your breath .. there is NO POSSIBLE way to do a boss run here).

    For the reasons above (most importantly extreme randomization) that won't be the case .. not to mention the mode is designed for hi-level characters from the beginning.

    Not a bad idea .. but if you read above you will see it won't be really needed.

    And it is primiarly for fun indeed (item thing is only secondary) .. and balance is the last thing to consider here ... if not at all ... it's all about making it extremely random and full of surprises (you might have to fight diablo plus tons of other minions on lv.10 one time .. and next time you fight a mini-boss like thousand pounder alone on lv.10 ... but figt Diablo and Baal with 30 or more minions later on) ... still .. one thing is guaranteed .. the more you advance up the floors .. the crazier things get.


    But here the thrill is greater cause you can gain something very good from it to use elsewhere .. while HC characters no matter what they gain are trapped in HC mode (a great new item or even a hi-rank for reaching a level no one ever reached before .. etc etc) ... the items and time you spend here are more worth fighting for than an HC character IMO.

    I'm not saying that it will be better than HC .. just will give players a differernt thrill HC can't give (nothing matches the thrill of reaching a level/place/floor you know that no one else in the world ever reached before or went beyond and lived to tell what he saw) .. that .. and the items of course XD


     
  14. Typoko

    Typoko Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    Hi!

    Just explain me why i should have problems at level 11 if i can do level 30 without any problems? There must be some system that determines that level 11 is alot easyer than 30. If not then there could just be one random level that keeps going on and on and you get something after 10 rooms.

    The thing is, big game developers want to keep the casuals happy by letting them have a piece of every part of the content. I don't like it and most likely eaven the casuals hate eachother for demanding all and everything. You might want to deny this but casuals are the ones that bring the big money in. This is the reason why "fun" things stop being fun. This means "No one is forcing you to X" is not valid argument. Everyone must be able to do everything and have fun with it. The great law of how to make game sell big time. Goes in to the same category as not being able to allocate your own stats.


     
  15. stillman

    stillman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    I think the OP is basically wanting the infinite dungeon idea brought up some months back. It's an end game thing for people who don't like dueling and are bored with item hunting. The dungeon goes on forever, getting harder and harder, untill the player is forced back or out. Or dies. It's completely harmless and it of course does not net the best items or exp in the game; it's just there for competitive nerds like me who want more things to do end game.

    Basically, you get as deep in the dungeon as you can just so you can accomplish something you never did before. You could make whole characters built on surviving past level X of the infinite dungeon, if it's what you like to do. There could be screenshots as proof you were there, or even better: a number tacked on to your title or a trophy item bearing your name showing how deep you got into the dungeon.

    Typoko, the time wasting easy part of the dungeon would actually be an important part of it for some of us. If you had to waste several minutes getting to the part where you feel challenged, then once you get there, you REALLY don't want to mess up and get killed. That would mean you wasted a lot of time. The boring part inspires you to play your best and not mess up and have to go through it again. Strange but true.

    I would love for all of bnet top dogs to get stuck at level 286-7, but then some guy makes a mystery build that has proof of getting to the 290 floor. That would be amazing, imo. You'd be a legend with knowlege of the one build and gear setup that can get that far...until someone tops you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  16. own

    own Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    I really like your idea, and i think if tweaked to the right amount of difficulty then it would make for a fun challenge / reward system. the beautiful thing about this is you only go as far as you can stay stand. only the worthy would reap benefit. it would promote team play as 5 would do better than just one.

    i would suggest one tower per game (it would not reset)
    the "tower" has no end (but eventual impossibility)
    to descend instead of ascend into lower levels of hell (ooo scary)
    a boss every 5 or 10 levels (thats were your mf comes in)
    you must kill all the monsters to progress to the next level

    this could be the end of the game itself.

    down the rabbit hole to see how far it goes.
     
  17. Picasso

    Picasso Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    so this kind of area has already been brought up in the battle.net suggestion forums?

    if not: knight_wolf, u have kind of perfected my original idea. if u could post it at the place where this bashiok reads it, that would be awesome.
    i really like the stuff u have written here.
     
  18. Felix

    Felix Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    Since we know players are always min/maxing, your tower would be ignored in favour of easier farm spots. If you say, then limit certain items to be only found at the very end of the tower, well... Aren't you just putting a Diablo game into another Diablo game? From start to finish, this is how the game plays out. Why then point us away from the game as a whole, to put us into a Diablo I remake within Diablo III?


     
  19. Picasso

    Picasso Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    players who just want to farm [insert random thing here] SHOULD ignore the tower

    the tower shall never be the area that is best for farming. it shall just be an exceptionally challenging and entertaining area
    ignored by those who only want to farm, but loved by those who today do ironman runs or try absurd character builds, just for fun. it would just be there to gather "fame", like "holy crap he reached level 31 in the tower" ...

    i really see no downsight in inculding something like this. the worst that can happen is that it is rarely visited.
     
  20. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: late game suggestion

    First .. like Picasso said .. the Tower isn't for farming at all .. it is for those with high level characters who want a real challenge and something to do with their characters other than PvP .... also those who want to experiment wit crazy builds at high levels.

    The items rewards are just there as an extra (can't be Diablo without that) ... but not the main focus of this mode.



    And it will be everything that can't be put into the main game (like i said, crazy monster combinations, huge waves of monsters, the tower floors/levels have simple layouts, crazy difficulty at later levels, .... etc etc) ...

    It seems to me you never played a game with extra modes (a.k.a game inside a game) might not be very popular on PC but it thrives and works well on console games and are always fun to tackle after you beat the game over and over .. usually they offer crazy challenges and some extra stuff to unlock in other games (i.e Devil May Cry, Onimusha, ... etc etc)

    And you don't also seem to get the point of the mode as an end game mode only accessible to high level characters .... in short .. it doesn't take you away from the game because there is nothing else left to do with a high level character other than PvP ... this mode gives you more things to do with your characters.

    I believe if a mode like that was made many will visit it just for the sheer challenge and to test their builds against the impossible odds in there .. if anything its randomness and difficulty will encourage build experimentation and co-op.
    --------------------------------------------------

    And the rules of the mode here make it nothing like Diablo 1.

    Tower of the Ancients

    1-After completing a certain side-quest late game that requires you character to be around level 60 you can now enter the tower through a special portal anytime you want .. but first you have to pay entrance fee (in gold).

    2-After you fight for like 10 small levels/floors of huge waves of random monsters low level monsters you are given the option to pay an exit fee and exit (portal maintenance costs XD) with all the items you obtained in the tower or continue further into the tower.

    3-From here on things get crazy, larger waves of enemies with no breaks in between, harder monsters, powerful bosses, many monster combinations not seen in the game, environmental hazards that can in the tight/small tower floors be more lethal with tons of monsters around, and of course lots of good items ... but where is the catch !!!!

    4-If you die you get thrown out without any of the items you obtained in the tower (you only get to keep the items you entered the tower with), if you wanted to exist with them you have to do when the game asks you every 10 levels whether you want to pay exist gold fee and exist with items you obtained or continue ... if you choose to continue you risk dying .. losing the items you collected in the tower and of course resetting the tower (you have to repay entrance fee and start from floor 1).

    5-Results, a thrill similar to HC mode if not more since if you get something (a good item for example) you can use it for something else ... it's that win it or lose it thrill that would make that mode a great experience.

    -----------------------------------------

    It will truly be a survival mode since you will be fighting with your claws ans teeth for your life and items you want to keep .... fighting in order to pass 10 levels without dying to get the chance to exit the tower with the items and always make sure when you reach the every 10 levels check point that you have enough gold to pay the exit fee XD (which can be extremely hard later on .. Ex: .. from 20 to 30 will be a walk in the park compared to tower levels from 50 to 60)


    More notes regarding the tower:
    1-Making exiting with items possible only after every 10 level/floors is a way to make the tower more exciting and give the players something more meaningful to fight for .. while also shunning off item farmers who hoard items and have no real skill .. since if they day they lose all the items they hoarded ... only those looking for a challenge and fun time will enter the tower (Solo or Co-op) and will be rewarded for their skills by items or just the thrill of surviving against the odds if they choose to venture deeper and deeper into the tower.

    2-Tower floors layouts are simple and only increase in area when advancing from floor to higher floor .. they aren't mazes or complex like game dungeons .. but rather have some simple structures and objects thrown randomly around (pillars, huge rocks and debris) and 4 or more large doors that open from time to time to send waves of monsters into the player's face ... the door to next floor opens when all waves of monsters are terminated.

    3-At later levels there could be some environmental hazards during the battles or also some shrines that appear in between monster waves (during brakes) to aid players.

    4-Monsters come in all sizes, shapes, combinations (mini bosses+minions+uniques+ .. etc etc), and also have modifiers not very common in the game, every 10 levels a powerful boss appears and upon defeating it you get the (Exit with items OR continue) message.

    5-Total number of levels/floors for any tower instance can be very large and random every time (due to the simple tower floors layouts and extreme randomization of monster types in the tower) or even inifinite (players are ranked by how far did they get into the tower)


     

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