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Knife making - Sword making - metals forging - welding ifr

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by neophase, Mar 24, 2005.

  1. neophase

    neophase Banned

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    Knife making - Sword making - metals forging - welding

    Official thread for Knife making - Sword making
    The art, masterpiece, the honor and truth.
    I'm a big fan of aikado, which I believe to be a defense-type martial arts, and in being prepared, we come to face the evil around this world. This is not a matter of trust, but education. With power comes great responsibility, and nobody has the right, nor the priviledge to take away a person's life, regardless of the actions of that person. Forgiveness is God's greatest gift to us.

    Thus I have said what I meant to say, down to business now.

    I hear Japanese sword making what first-class, best of it's art in the world, in the past. I don't know how, but just heard that. Highlander?

    This is what this thread is all about.... say you got time travelled back to the stone age, or that of Adam/Eve, whatever you may want to believe..... and you wanted to be prepared to defend yourself.... where to go from there...

    Forge, Anvil, Hammer, heat, welding, oxy-acetylene, please try to keep this as Basic as you can, URLs are utmost beneficial.
    I've seen braveheart, I've seen Gladiator, I've seen Lord of the Rings (Extended DVD of Two Towers - forging of the great sword), I've played Ultima Online (Blacksmithy and Mining were amongst my favorite... along with the varied amounts of unique minerals of the ground).

    000000000000000000000000000000000000

    So my question(s) comes down to this:
    How are knifes, swords, hammers, anvils, forges all made and used, maintained, and used to their full effictiveness to produce perfection?

    What metals are used? classification, identification, comparing, attributes (benefitis/drawbacks), everything.... including alloys, gold, rare minerals, etc.
     
  2. {KOW}Spazed

    {KOW}Spazed Banned

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    Generally you would use a wood furnace to heat the metal. It would take an obscene amount of gas/liquid fuel to make a sword/ax/armor.

    So you heat the raw ore, usually iron. When it turns to a liquid you scrape off all the stuff floating on top.(slag?) From there you let it cool in the shape of a rectangle. Heat it up again and pound it with a hammer and fold it over, repeat this a bazillion times. Each time you fold it it, the piece should get slightly longer, when it is of the right length you shape it more. For swords you would make the spine and angle the edges in a bit. Next you heat the whole thing up, then stick it in water. This makes the carbon in the air to get 'stuck' in the metal. You repeat this a bunch of times, if you have too much carbon its brittle, not enough and it won't hold an edge. Once you found the sweet spot you place it in a handle and sharpen it.


    At least that is my basic understanding.
     
  3. Pierrot le Fou

    Pierrot le Fou IncGamers Member

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    If I was transported back to the STONE AGE, I don't think I'd be doing much metal forging.

    The STONE AGE used STONE tools.

    After the stone age, you had the bronze age, which used (what a shocker!) bronze tools. Bronze is a softer metal which was easier to refine and melt using the technology (generally clay kiln-type ovens with bellows) that they had at the time.

    After the bronze age came the iron age, which is still well before any type of hardcore steel that you're thinking of. Steel is a relatively modern invention all things considered.

    And by the way, it's 'aikido' not 'aikado', and a Japanese sword cannot stand up to a 50-cal machinegun.

    It was on Japanese TV.
     
  4. CyberHawk

    CyberHawk IncGamers Member

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    If I were going for "perfection" as you say, like in as living against all odds..killing/hunting/working. I would concentrate on making a bow. Wood and vine...using chiseld rock as a point. Shael should be fine for that, found along side of rivers and such.
    I actualy made one at the jobsite using string(vine is just as strong), and a bent piece of wood I found off a tree. It almost was strong enough to go thru a piece of OSB board(1/2 inch thick). Perfected would only have taken prob the whole day instead of a lunch hour. ;)

    Oh and mine could kill against a machine gun..just need better hunting skills..mumuhahaha.
     
  5. neophase

    neophase Banned

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    Stealth outbeats all, but is also cold-blooded.
    The beauty of being small is that you're hidden, they are exposed (Enemy of the State - hackman/smith)
     
  6. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, and as a bonus it will make your attack rate faster!
     
  7. neophase

    neophase Banned

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    Again, a bow is silent, and stealthy.
     
  8. TurdFergusen

    TurdFergusen Banned

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    And besides, chicks dig guys with like, bowhunting skills, nunchuck skills, and computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.
     
  9. Peregrine

    Peregrine IncGamers Member

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    Back that far? Forget about it, you'd have to do way too much work to get decent steel. You're talking about re-creating a support industry that took hundreds of years to do the first time. Forget about making swords like a master, at best you might get some crude iron bars with an edge within your lifetime.

    Make a spear instead, much simpler and at least as effective (if not more so).
     
  10. rplusplus

    rplusplus IncGamers Member

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    I was a metalsmith way before I got into electronics and computers. Making swords is really fun.

    The first swords were Bronze as it was the only metal (alloy) that was strong enough to hold an edge. Then came the Iron age and later steel. Iron made a decent weapon but until the invention of steel they wern't was good. You need the right combination of Iron and Carbon to make a good steel.

    To forge a sword you needed to first pour an ingot to get the basic bar that you will be forging. Then you can use a coal fire with a bellows to give you a high enough temperature to forge. Once the metal is hot enough you then work the sword with a hammer and anvil to get the density of the steel molecules tight. Then you need to temper the blade. The ancient japanese used the folding technique which allowed for a really dense sword and it kept the sharpest edge. They would temper the blade by driving the blade into prisoners as the 98 degrees of blood was the perfect temperature to temper the blades. If it was tempered wrong it would either dull easy or worse Break!

    Forging a sword takes a long time to get it right and the skill involved is much harder than it looks in the movies. To get a really good sword would take a master smith weeks for each blade. They would usually have apprentices do the basic forging and would take over in the last steps.

    R++
     
  11. DurfBarian

    DurfBarian IncGamers Member

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    Well, you're like the only guy in the OTF who has a mustache . . .
     
  12. {KOW}Spazed

    {KOW}Spazed Banned

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    But can he throw a pigskin a quarter mile?
     
  13. TurdFergusen

    TurdFergusen Banned

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    Maybe not, but you both know i'v been training to be a cage fighter, and i'm pretty good with a bo staff.
     
  14. Peregrine

    Peregrine IncGamers Member

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    That's actually due to the inferior quality of steel the Japanese had to work with. They had to use many folds to get the quality up to what much simpler European swords could have. The final result isn't any better.
     
  15. {KOW}Spazed

    {KOW}Spazed Banned

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    So the steel used in I-beams is folded because?
     
  16. Peregrine

    Peregrine IncGamers Member

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    Since when are I-beams forged like a sword?

    And I'll concede there may be some benefit to it in some situations, but it's nowhere near as much of an advantage as the "omg japanese + 10000000 layars!!!!!!" katana fans will claim. You don't get some magic indestructable and impossibly sharp sword just because you use a lot of layers. The main reason for the massive numbers of layers was the poor quality raw materials. With good steel, you can get the same quality without folding it at all.
     
  17. DurfBarian

    DurfBarian IncGamers Member

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    Nope. You get that by dipping the sword in the blood of ninja virgins.
     
  18. Pier

    Pier IncGamers Member

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    To understand good forging you first need to understand how metals behave.
    Go to the library and get a book about metallurgy. Here I will only focus on steel (iron with a couple of percent carbon). It is one of the best materials to work with, short of exotic alloys.

    I won't go too much into details, but this is basically first year materials science at college and isn't terribly complicated. To give a very simple summary:

    People used to hammer the iron to promote carbon diffusion into the iron (effectively making steel). The furnaces weren't hot enough to get to a temperature high enough to get really high diffusion natrurally.

    Furthermore the heating and quenching is done to get a certain microstructure in the metal, constisting of different phases of steel. Microstructures can be layers, small spheres in a contious matrix, large patches etc.
    You can get for example a layered structure of carbon rich steel and carbon poor steel.
    Certain microstructures produce strong, brittle steel, and others produce ductile, weak steel.

    Only very few techniques produce a microstructure that yields a both strong and ductile steel.

    The folding of the metal can further improve this by getting layers of different microstructures.


    Once again: read a book about metallurgy

    Grr pIER
     
  19. Beowulf

    Beowulf IncGamers Member

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    Japanese swords are not made like that the are never made liquid. They take usually 3 pieces of iron and warm them up and beat them until the desired shape and carbon consistency are found. The piece closer to the hilt and then one at the end are the strongest so be able to slice and hold on while the middle piece of softer to be able to withstand inmapcts. Also when first made the sword is straight then the swordmaker will heat it up and know by color alone when it is time to quickly dip it cold water to form the curve katana's and other japanese swords are known for. only about 1 in 4 blades cruve properly.
     
  20. Kaysaar

    Kaysaar IncGamers Member

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    The Norse had their own style of forging swords until they figured out the best method:

    From Hurstwic: Viking Age Arms and Armor
    (It's worth going to this site to just to look at the picture of the pattern welded blade. It's a very pretty sword.)
     

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