Knife making - Sword making - metals forging - welding ifr

neophase

Banned
Knife making - Sword making - metals forging - welding

Official thread for Knife making - Sword making
The art, masterpiece, the honor and truth.
I'm a big fan of aikado, which I believe to be a defense-type martial arts, and in being prepared, we come to face the evil around this world. This is not a matter of trust, but education. With power comes great responsibility, and nobody has the right, nor the priviledge to take away a person's life, regardless of the actions of that person. Forgiveness is God's greatest gift to us.

Thus I have said what I meant to say, down to business now.

I hear Japanese sword making what first-class, best of it's art in the world, in the past. I don't know how, but just heard that. Highlander?

This is what this thread is all about.... say you got time travelled back to the stone age, or that of Adam/Eve, whatever you may want to believe..... and you wanted to be prepared to defend yourself.... where to go from there...

Forge, Anvil, Hammer, heat, welding, oxy-acetylene, please try to keep this as Basic as you can, URLs are utmost beneficial.
I've seen braveheart, I've seen Gladiator, I've seen Lord of the Rings (Extended DVD of Two Towers - forging of the great sword), I've played Ultima Online (Blacksmithy and Mining were amongst my favorite... along with the varied amounts of unique minerals of the ground).

000000000000000000000000000000000000

So my question(s) comes down to this:
How are knifes, swords, hammers, anvils, forges all made and used, maintained, and used to their full effictiveness to produce perfection?

What metals are used? classification, identification, comparing, attributes (benefitis/drawbacks), everything.... including alloys, gold, rare minerals, etc.
 
Generally you would use a wood furnace to heat the metal. It would take an obscene amount of gas/liquid fuel to make a sword/ax/armor.

So you heat the raw ore, usually iron. When it turns to a liquid you scrape off all the stuff floating on top.(slag?) From there you let it cool in the shape of a rectangle. Heat it up again and pound it with a hammer and fold it over, repeat this a bazillion times. Each time you fold it it, the piece should get slightly longer, when it is of the right length you shape it more. For swords you would make the spine and angle the edges in a bit. Next you heat the whole thing up, then stick it in water. This makes the carbon in the air to get 'stuck' in the metal. You repeat this a bunch of times, if you have too much carbon its brittle, not enough and it won't hold an edge. Once you found the sweet spot you place it in a handle and sharpen it.


At least that is my basic understanding.
 

Pierrot le Fou

Diabloii.Net Member
If I was transported back to the STONE AGE, I don't think I'd be doing much metal forging.

The STONE AGE used STONE tools.

After the stone age, you had the bronze age, which used (what a shocker!) bronze tools. Bronze is a softer metal which was easier to refine and melt using the technology (generally clay kiln-type ovens with bellows) that they had at the time.

After the bronze age came the iron age, which is still well before any type of hardcore steel that you're thinking of. Steel is a relatively modern invention all things considered.

And by the way, it's 'aikido' not 'aikado', and a Japanese sword cannot stand up to a 50-cal machinegun.

It was on Japanese TV.
 

CyberHawk

Diabloii.Net Member
If I were going for "perfection" as you say, like in as living against all odds..killing/hunting/working. I would concentrate on making a bow. Wood and vine...using chiseld rock as a point. Shael should be fine for that, found along side of rivers and such.
I actualy made one at the jobsite using string(vine is just as strong), and a bent piece of wood I found off a tree. It almost was strong enough to go thru a piece of OSB board(1/2 inch thick). Perfected would only have taken prob the whole day instead of a lunch hour. ;)

Oh and mine could kill against a machine gun..just need better hunting skills..mumuhahaha.
 

neophase

Banned
Pierrot le Fou said:
a Japanese sword cannot stand up to a 50-cal machinegun.

It was on Japanese TV.
Stealth outbeats all, but is also cold-blooded.
The beauty of being small is that you're hidden, they are exposed (Enemy of the State - hackman/smith)
 

dantose

Diabloii.Net Member
CyberHawk said:
If I were going for "perfection" as you say, like in as living against all odds..killing/hunting/working. I would concentrate on making a bow. Wood and vine...using chiseld rock as a point. Shael should be fine for that, found along side of rivers and such.
I actualy made one at the jobsite using string(vine is just as strong), and a bent piece of wood I found off a tree. It almost was strong enough to go thru a piece of OSB board(1/2 inch thick). Perfected would only have taken prob the whole day instead of a lunch hour. ;)

Oh and mine could kill against a machine gun..just need better hunting skills..mumuhahaha.
Yeah, and as a bonus it will make your attack rate faster!
 
And besides, chicks dig guys with like, bowhunting skills, nunchuck skills, and computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.
 

Peregrine

Diabloii.Net Member
Back that far? Forget about it, you'd have to do way too much work to get decent steel. You're talking about re-creating a support industry that took hundreds of years to do the first time. Forget about making swords like a master, at best you might get some crude iron bars with an edge within your lifetime.

Make a spear instead, much simpler and at least as effective (if not more so).
 

rplusplus

Diabloii.Net Member
I was a metalsmith way before I got into electronics and computers. Making swords is really fun.

The first swords were Bronze as it was the only metal (alloy) that was strong enough to hold an edge. Then came the Iron age and later steel. Iron made a decent weapon but until the invention of steel they wern't was good. You need the right combination of Iron and Carbon to make a good steel.

To forge a sword you needed to first pour an ingot to get the basic bar that you will be forging. Then you can use a coal fire with a bellows to give you a high enough temperature to forge. Once the metal is hot enough you then work the sword with a hammer and anvil to get the density of the steel molecules tight. Then you need to temper the blade. The ancient japanese used the folding technique which allowed for a really dense sword and it kept the sharpest edge. They would temper the blade by driving the blade into prisoners as the 98 degrees of blood was the perfect temperature to temper the blades. If it was tempered wrong it would either dull easy or worse Break!

Forging a sword takes a long time to get it right and the skill involved is much harder than it looks in the movies. To get a really good sword would take a master smith weeks for each blade. They would usually have apprentices do the basic forging and would take over in the last steps.

R++
 

DurfBarian

Diabloii.Net Member
TurdFergusen said:
And besides, chicks dig guys with like, bowhunting skills, nunchuck skills, and computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.
Well, you're like the only guy in the OTF who has a mustache . . .
 

Peregrine

Diabloii.Net Member
The ancient japanese used the folding technique which allowed for a really dense sword and it kept the sharpest edge.
That's actually due to the inferior quality of steel the Japanese had to work with. They had to use many folds to get the quality up to what much simpler European swords could have. The final result isn't any better.
 
Peregrine said:
That's actually due to the inferior quality of steel the Japanese had to work with. They had to use many folds to get the quality up to what much simpler European swords could have. The final result isn't any better.
So the steel used in I-beams is folded because?
 

Peregrine

Diabloii.Net Member
{KOW}Spazed said:
So the steel used in I-beams is folded because?
Since when are I-beams forged like a sword?

And I'll concede there may be some benefit to it in some situations, but it's nowhere near as much of an advantage as the "omg japanese + 10000000 layars!!!!!!" katana fans will claim. You don't get some magic indestructable and impossibly sharp sword just because you use a lot of layers. The main reason for the massive numbers of layers was the poor quality raw materials. With good steel, you can get the same quality without folding it at all.
 

DurfBarian

Diabloii.Net Member
Peregrine said:
You don't get some magic indestructable and impossibly sharp sword just because you use a lot of layers.
Nope. You get that by dipping the sword in the blood of ninja virgins.
 

Pier

Diabloii.Net Member
To understand good forging you first need to understand how metals behave.
Go to the library and get a book about metallurgy. Here I will only focus on steel (iron with a couple of percent carbon). It is one of the best materials to work with, short of exotic alloys.

I won't go too much into details, but this is basically first year materials science at college and isn't terribly complicated. To give a very simple summary:

People used to hammer the iron to promote carbon diffusion into the iron (effectively making steel). The furnaces weren't hot enough to get to a temperature high enough to get really high diffusion natrurally.

Furthermore the heating and quenching is done to get a certain microstructure in the metal, constisting of different phases of steel. Microstructures can be layers, small spheres in a contious matrix, large patches etc.
You can get for example a layered structure of carbon rich steel and carbon poor steel.
Certain microstructures produce strong, brittle steel, and others produce ductile, weak steel.

Only very few techniques produce a microstructure that yields a both strong and ductile steel.

The folding of the metal can further improve this by getting layers of different microstructures.


Once again: read a book about metallurgy

Grr pIER
 

Beowulf

Diabloii.Net Member
{KOW}Spazed said:
Generally you would use a wood furnace to heat the metal. It would take an obscene amount of gas/liquid fuel to make a sword/ax/armor.

So you heat the raw ore, usually iron When it turns to a liquid you scrape off all the stuff floating on top.(slag?) From there you let it cool in the shape of a rectangle. Heat it up again and pound it with a hammer and fold it over, repeat this a bazillion times. Each time you fold it it, the piece should get slightly longer, when it is of the right length you shape it more. For swords you would make the spine and angle the edges in a bit. Next you heat the whole thing up, then stick it in water. This makes the carbon in the air to get 'stuck' in the metal. You repeat this a bunch of times, if you have too much carbon its brittle, not enough and it won't hold an edge. Once you found the sweet spot you place it in a handle and sharpen it.


At least that is my basic understanding.

Japanese swords are not made like that the are never made liquid. They take usually 3 pieces of iron and warm them up and beat them until the desired shape and carbon consistency are found. The piece closer to the hilt and then one at the end are the strongest so be able to slice and hold on while the middle piece of softer to be able to withstand inmapcts. Also when first made the sword is straight then the swordmaker will heat it up and know by color alone when it is time to quickly dip it cold water to form the curve katana's and other japanese swords are known for. only about 1 in 4 blades cruve properly.
 

Kaysaar

Diabloii.Net Member
The Norse had their own style of forging swords until they figured out the best method:

From Hurstwic: Viking Age Arms and Armor
(It's worth going to this site to just to look at the picture of the pattern welded blade. It's a very pretty sword.)
During the early part of the Viking age, swords blades were made with a process called pattern welding. This technique was used because there was no one material good enough for making sword blades, with the proper combination of strength, flexibility, and ability to hold an edge.

Part of the problem was that the iron making process was not understood during the Viking age. Sometimes, the smith would go through the entire smelting process and end up with highly desirable low carbon wrought iron. But sometimes, he would start with the same raw materials, go through all the same steps and end up with useless high carbon cast iron. The process of controlling the smelting operation was not understood.
billet

In order to make a usable sword blade with the available materials, the smith created a composite material. He started by bundling together selected bars of different types of iron. He heated this bundle, and when it was hot enough, he started twisting it. He continued the heating and twisting process until the billet was ready to be worked, and then he shaped it into the blade.

The heating and twisting process created a composite, made up of different kinds of iron that together, had the necessary strength and flexibility for a sword blade. However, despite using this pattern welding process, sword blades from the Viking age were far from ideal. In some cases, hard iron strips were welded onto the edge of the sword to provide a material better able to hold an edge. Even so, some stories describe how, during an extended battle, swords became so dull and dented they no longer cut (e.g., Óláfs saga Tryggvasonar chapter 109). And, the stories describe instances in which a sword blade bent during a fight. In chapter 49 of Laxdæla saga, Kjartan was ambushed. He was not carrying his usual sword, a gift from the king, but rather a lesser sword. Several times during the battle, Kjartan had to straighten his bent blade by standing on it. In chapter 13 of Gull-Þóris saga, Þorbjörn's sword blade broke when he hit Þórir's helmet with it.
pattern welded blade

The pattern welding process also creates a beautiful, delicate pattern in the surface of the blade as the different types of iron come to the surface. The pattern in the surface of a reproduction blade is shown to the left.

Later in the Viking era, as the iron making process became better controlled, better iron became available, and pattern welding was no longer used.
 
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