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Kicking Basics

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by jrichard, Jan 30, 2004.

  1. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    Kicking Basics

    Kicking Basics

    Abbreviations and Acronyms used in this document:
    Str = strength
    Dex = dexterity
    AR = attack rating
    ED = enhanced damage
    TS = Tiger Strike
    Dtalon = Dragon Talon
    Dtail = Dragon Tail
    Dflight = Dragon Flight
    CM = Claw Mastery
    Fpa = Frames per Attack
    IAS = increased attack speed
    EIAS = effective increased attack speed
    WSM = Weapon Speed Modifier
    BoS = Burst of Speed


    Kick Damage Equation

    MinDamage= (str + dex - 20) / 4 * (100 + skill_bonus) / 100 + BootMinDam * (100 + (str * StrBonus / 100) + skill_bonus + non_weapon ED + Aura_bonus) / 100

    MaxDamage=(str + dex - 20) / 3 * (100 + skill_bonus) / 100 + BootMaxDam * (100 + (str * StrBonus / 100) + skill_bonus + non_weapon ED + Aura_bonus) / 100

    This equation needs to be worked left to right following the mathematical order of operations. Drop decimals when you get them from division.



    Here’s the list of boots and their damage:

    Name______________mindam__maxdam__StrBonus
    Leather Boots_______3_______8_______120
    Heavy Boots_________4_______10______120
    Chain Boots_________6_______12______120
    Light Plate Boots___8_______16______120
    Plate Boots_________10______20______120
    Demonhide Boots_____26______46______120
    Sharkskin Boots_____28______50______120
    Mesh Boots__________23______52______120
    Battle Boots________37______64______120
    War Boots___________39______80______120
    Wyrmhide Boots______65______100_____120
    Scarabshell Boots___60______110_____120
    Boneweave Boots_____69______118_____120
    Mirrored Boots______50______145_____120
    Myrmidon Greaves____83______149_____120



    Rather than try to explain each skill on it’s own, I’m going to just explain the damage formula. After that, I’ll move onto some skill and effect specifics. First and foremost, Your weapons ED will not affect any part of this equation. Physical weapon damage doesn’t matter when figuring kick damage.


    (Str+dex-20)/4) and (str+dex-20)/3)
    Indicate that for the base kick damage with no boots on str and dex have the same effect on damage. Dex, however, also boosts AR and defense. Thus, in 1.09 dex was the better choice for boosting your kick damage. This is no longer strictly true in 1.10, but the difference comes in a later part of the equation and I’ll leave the explanation for then.

    (100+skill_bonus)
    The skill_bonus spot is where the ED for Dtalon, TS, Dflight, and skills such as might get placed. ED on weapons does not affect kick damage at all and non-weapon ED is not counted into this total. IMPORTANT: If more than one of these sources of ED are present, they get added together and placed into this slot. Aura bonus is NOT added here. Also important: Dtail is not figured into the equation in this place, it’s actually figured using the result of the kick damage equation.

    The last part of the equation dealing with boots and their damage was added in 1.10. A couple of points worth noting are this boot damage is added to the normal kick damage, not multiplied with it and the str bonus is added to the skill_bonus, not multiplied by it.

    + BootMinDam, + BootMaxDam.
    Hopefully self-explanatory. Just grab the numbers off the chart.

    (100 + (str*StrBonus/100) + skill_bonus + non_weapon ED+Aura_bonus)
    As you can see from the boot damage chart, all boots have a str bonus of 120. The skill_bonus slot is handled just as it was in the previous part of the equation. Non-weapon ED is also added to this portion of the equation. Aura_bonus is self-explanatory, it's basically where the ED bonuses from stuff like Might, Concentration, and Fanatiscm is added. Here’s why str becomes a better choice than dex for raising kick damage in 1.10. Dex will still give AR and defense, but for pure damage increase str gets figured into the equation twice whereas dex only gets figured into the first part of the equation.


    Here's a quick run through of the minimum damage equation using 220 str, 150 dex, level 20 TS, level 20 Dtail, and myrmidon greaves:

    MinDamage = (220 + 150 - 20) / 4 * (100 + 1440) / 100 + 83 * (100 + (220 * 120 / 100) + 1440) / 100
    MinDamage = 350 / 4 * 1540 / 100 + 83 * (100 + 264 + 1440) / 100
    MinDamage = 87 * 1540 / 100 + 83 * 1804 / 100
    MinDamage = 133980 / 100 + 149732 / 100
    MinDamage = 1339 + 1497
    Min Damage = 2836

    Because we're using Dtail, we multiply the result by the Dtail bonus to find the damage done in the area of effect.
    Dtail AoE MinDamage = 2836 * 240 / 100
    Dtail AoE MinDamage = 680640 / 100
    Dtail AoE MinDamage = 6806

    That's the AoE damage of Dtail, to get the total damage shown on the character screen, add the damage from the kick itself and the AoE damage:

    2836 + 6806

    9642 is the minimum damage that would be displayed on the char screen. It's important to work this equation from left to right due to the decimals being dropped after division. In the example above, MinDamage = 87 * 1540 / 100 + 83 * 1804 / 100, if you divided by 100 before multiplying, you'd get a result of :

    MinDamage = 87 * 15 + 83 * 18
    MinDamage = 1305 + 1494
    MinDamage = 2799, with total Dtail damage (kick + AoE) of 9516


    Understand that the bonus added from strength and ED from skills gets effectively reduced by this formula. Charging a level 20 TS (1440% ED) won’t up your damage by anywhere near 14 times once boot damage is counted into the equation.

    Once again, weapon ED will not affect kicks. If str and dex are equal with both, you will have the same kick damage if you are using a cracked katar as you would if you’re using a cruel runic talon.

    Non-weapon ED will have a much bigger impact on the damage of Dtalon and Dflight than it will with Dtail. Usually, TS is used in conjunction with Dtail and the ED from TS will vastly overshadow your non-weapon sources. With Dtalon, which isn't normally used with TS, the ED added from the skill is much lower and you'll see a bigger effect from non-weapon sources of ED. Dflight sits basically in the middle of the other two kicks on this issue. It will help Dflight more than Dtail, but less than Dtalon. In all cases, unless your build a variant or going all out for absolute maximum damage, non-weapon ED shouldn't be placed ahead of other useful modifiers such as resists, stats and skills as you'll have to make some sacrifices in those areas to obtain the ED from non-weapon sources.

    I’ll mention again that Dtalon’s and Dflight’s damage bonuses are added into the kick damage equation, not multiplied by the result, as is Dtail’s. If you assign skill points so that all three have about the same listed ED, you’ll see on the character screen that Dtail lists much more actual damage due to this.



    Effects and the kick skills

    The following effects are carried by the kicking skills:
    ? Life Leech
    ? Mana Leech
    ? Elemental Damage
    ? Magical Damage
    ? Chance to cast X on striking
    ? Crushing Blow
    ? Open Wounds
    ? Prevent Monster Heal
    ? Ignore Target Defense
    ? Hit Blinds Target
    ? Hit Causes Monster to Flee
    ? Hit Freezes target
    ? Hit Slows Target

    When using dual claws the effects of the first claw you equip will be carried, not the effects from both claws. I would suggest that you use a claw providing + skills, stats, etc. in the second position. This can get very confusing, as the game will default to the claw on the left side of the character screen if you unequip your first claw, then re-equip it. I strongly suggest that you always equip the claw whose effects you want to be transferred to your kicks first and put it in the slot on the left side of the character screen.

    A change from version 1.09 is that kicks now will use the leech amounts off of your equipment and don't require Cobra Strike to obtain life or mana leech.

    Dtail carries these effects only to the release target, not in the area of effect.

    Dtalon and Dflight carry elemental adders, but it is not reflected in the damage shown on the character screen.

    The following effects are not carried by the kick skills:
    ? + Physical damage. This includes + Min damage, + Max damage, and plain + damage modifiers.
    ? Deadly Strike
    ? Critical strike
    As of the writing of this, there is a problem with ED/Max damage jewels. They don't apply the ED, just the Max damage. As kicks do not carry + Max damage modifiers, this means that an ED/Max damage jewel will not affect your kick damage at all even if the jewel is in a non-weapon socket.



    Notes on the skills

    Dtalon.

    TS is almost never used with talon except when talon is still at low levels. The ED added by TS is only applied to the first kick of the talon attack. Charging TS to three orbs and releasing with talon will deal less damage over time than attacking with talon alone once multiple kicks are involved.
    Talon gets one additional kick every six skill levels (i.e. two kicks at level 6, three at level 12 etc.).

    Talon is a great means for applying crushing blow and chance to cast on striking effects due to its multiple kicks done in a very short timeframe.
    With a heavy investment in str and high damage boots talon’s damage can be very nice, but without such investment it tends to be rather low. This isn't to say that a Dtalon build can't obtain high damage, it just means that in order to get it you will have to focus your build around it.

    When figuring damage with talon, remember to take into account the number of kicks. The damage equation gives the damage done by each kick, not all of them together.


    Dtail.

    Dtail’s damage is easiest to understand if you think of it as being in two parts, the release damage and the area of effect damage. The release damage is physical and is figured with the kick damage equation above. The area of effect damage is figured based off of the release damage. Take the physical release damage, multiply it by the Dtail bonus, and convert it into fire to get the aoe damage. This is why Dtail is ineffective when released on a physical immune enemy. No release damage is actually done, therefore no damage is available to be multiplied and converted.

    TS is almost always used with Dtail. The TS bonus increases the physical damage done when releasing with Dtail and so greatly increases the damage available to be multiplied and converted.

    When viewing Dtail damage on the character screen the damage shown is the sum of the release damage and the AoE damage. To find the damage done in the AoE alone, subtract the damage done by the release strike from what is shown.

    Fists of Fire has a property in 1.10 that is worth mentioning in connection with Dtail. FoF now converts 3% of your physical damage to fire for every level of FoF. This conversion happens before Dtail figures its aoe damage and will reduce the physical damage done by the release thus reducing the damage done in Dtail’s aoe. FoF at level 34 and above will leave no damage done in the Dtail aoe. Using FoF and Dtail at the same time is really not recommended unless the aim is to kill a non-fire immune, physical immune enemy that Dtail itself cannot harm.


    Dflight

    Dflight at first glance seems to provide far and away the most damage of the three kicks. Remember, however, that flight’s ED is added into the damage equation not multiplied. It also doesn't get the boost from multiple kicks as Dtalon does. In the late game, the skill is going to be hurt by this. Here's some approximate numbers for all three kick skills using 250 strength, 150 dexterity and myrmidon greaves to illustrate this.

    Skill____Lvl ED___Lvl 20 Av.Dmg__Lvl 30 ED__Lvl 30 Av. Dmg
    Dtalon____138______885/3540*______208________1045/6270**
    Dtail_____240______1955___________340________2530
    Dflight___575______1875___________825________2445


    * First number is for a single kick, second is the total for four kicks at level 20
    **First number is for a single kick, second is the total for six kicks at level 30

    I rounded the numbers to the nearest multiple of five for ease in calculation. As you can see, although the ED for Dflight is much higher than the other skills, the total damage it actually does is lower than either of the other skills.

    Dflight’s casting delay has been reduced in 1.10 from 2 seconds to 1 second making it a little more pvm friendly.

    Dflight has a few problems when it's used as the main finisher for your build. First, it's interruptible. It carries a casting hesitation before it teleports you and it can be interrupted at any point in the process. Second, it suffers from some nasty desynch issues. That basically means that it misses and misfires quite a bit. By misfiring I mean that you'll hit the button and hear the sound Dflight makes when it teleports, but you'll find your assassin still standing in the same place with no teleport and no kick having been done. That's why this skill is generally left as a one pt wonder and used only for teleporting rather than as a main damage skill. This leads to a rather odd thing about Dflight. One of the most common uses for it in pvm is as a means of getting out of hot situations. Usually this means that you're getting swamped and need to get out of the middle of a crowd. That's exactly the type of situation in which Dflight is least effective and will show most blatantly the issues it has with missing and misfiring. Odd, but true. To avoid the issues with this skill, you need to look ahead and use it to get out of those situations before you are completely surrounded.

    Dflight can be used as a main finisher, but running a build using it as such takes a lot of caution, tactics and skill with crowd control. Really not recommended for beginning players.

    One large note for those wanting to use Dflight with a trapper or hybrid build. Your traps will disappear if you Dflight outside of their firing range. That's the range that a bolt will fly when fired by the trap, not the range from the trap that a target has to be for the trap to fire.

    EDIT by Naliworld: Some of the information below(particularly concerning DTalon/DTail speeds) is outdated. Please use this page instead.

    Kicking Speed

    This will be a very brief overview as the topic of attack speeds is worthy of a guide all it's own.

    Kicks have a base fpa of 12. The EIAS (Effective Increased Attack Speed) formula is:

    EIAS = ((120*ias)/(120+ias)) + skill_ias – WSM

    If you are dual wielding claws, this gets a slightly complicated. Your WSM will be the average of the WSMs of both claws. However, only the ias on your main weapon (the one you equip first or the one on the left-hand side of the character screen if you've unequiped and re-equiped your first claw) will count towards your ias total. IAS on your off-hand weapon will not affect your kick speed. I'll repeat something I stated in the effects portion of this guide: I strongly suggest that you always equip the claw whose effects (and IAS) you want to be transferred to your kicks first and put it in the slot on the left side of the character screen.

    Ias in this equation is the total of all ias on your gear, excluding your off-hand weapon if you're dual wielding claws. Weapon ias has no different effect than ias on gloves, helm or armor.

    Skill_ias in this equation is the attack speed increase added by BoS or skills such as Fanatacism.

    You need 63 EIAS to get to a 7-frame kick speed. The breaks for a 0 WSM claw with no BoS would be:
    IAS_EIAS_Frames
    0____0____12
    10___9____11
    23___19___10
    42___31___9
    72___45___8
    133__63___7


    Here’s the breaks for a –30 WSM claw with no BoS:
    IAS_EIAS_Frames
    0____30___10
    2____31___9
    18___45___8
    46___63___7


    Dtalon’s subsequent kicks have different break points. 0 to 24 EIAS puts them at 4 frames. 25 to 66 EIAS makes for 3 frame follow up kicks. 67+ EIAS will get you 2 frame follow up kicks.

    One other note on kick speed is that Dflight’s actual speed may be 7 frames with your gear and skills, but it still carries a casting hesitation before and after the kick so, ias and bos really don’t help it much.


    For further information on what your kicking speed would be given your gear and skill levels, I’ll refer you to this calculator:

    Assassin Attack Speed Calculator

    It’s in Excel 97 format. If you don’t have Excel, there’s a link to a free downloadable viewer from Microsoft on the page




    Thank yous:
    From the Amazon Basin Forums
    Ruvanal (for provided the kick damage formula in the first place), Zath, Rogue Mage, Craziel
    From the diabloii.net forums
    Naliworld, Lunatic, Shivan, Aerath, Chrystianek, Omnivor, Beatboxer, Squix, Trance757, GaiaCat
    Those listed here provided information, tested, asked questions, suggested formatting and additions, and generally just helped me to better understand how the kicking skills work. I hope I haven't forgotten anyone. Thank you all.

    jrichard
     
  2. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    I didn't get this change into the document before i posted it. It's a big change if you're looking to up damage by adding an aura such as might. The damage equation should read like this:

    MinDamage= (str + dex - 20) / 4 * (100 + skill_bonus) / 100 + BootMinDam * (100 + (str * StrBonus / 100) + skill_bonus + non_weapon ED + Aura_bonus) / 100

    MaxDamage=(str + dex - 20) / 3 * (100 + skill_bonus) / 100 + BootMaxDam * (100 + (str * StrBonus / 100) + skill_bonus + non_weapon ED + Aura+bonus) / 100

    The skill_bonus slot in the first half of each equation does not, repeat does not, include ED from aura skills such as might or fanatacism. It works just like non-weapon ED and is only added into the second half or boot damage portion of the equation. Sorry, should have had it changed before i reposted this.

    jrichard
     
  3. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    Major oversight on the kick speed portion of this document.

    Dragon Tail has a penalty of 40 to the WSM when figuring kick speeds. If you have a WSM of -30 from your claws, when using Dtail figure the kick speeds with a WSM of 10. I realized that i had forgotten this as i was going through testing for the c/c attack speed document i'm posting.

    The html version of this at JRichard's Assassin Stuff has already been updated.

    jrichard
     
  4. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    c/c attack speed info consolidated

    EDIT by Naliworld: Some of the information here(particularly concerning DTalon speeds is outdated and is currently being updated. For the moment, please use this page instead.

    Okay, i've been trying to consolidate all my testing involving attacks speeds with dual claws into one place. This is what i have so far.


    C/C Attack Speed Basics

    When an Assassin equips a second claw, her attack speeds change. I started testing awhile back to try and figure out what governs these changes. Much like my kicking document, I’m typing this up in order to settle in my mind what it is that I’ve found.

    The intention of this is not to provide tables of needed IAS and BoS levels to hit certain speeds, but rather to explain the mechanics of how the WSM and IAS are determined. For tables or calculators to use after you know these numbers I’ll refer you to these pages:

    Fuzzbox’s IAS Tables

    Weapon Speed Calculator at Dii.net

    There is also an assassin attack speed calc I have made up in excel at this site: JRichard’s Assassin Stuff, but the information on it has to be updated to reflect all of this information on dual claw setups. It will still work great, it’s just out of date as far as explaining how two claws affect things.


    WSM
    First of all, you should be aware of what a WSM is. WSM stands for Weapon Speed Modifier. This is often referred to as the weapon’s base speed. When you see people talking about a –30 claw, they are talking about a claw with a WSM of –30. Lower numbers for WSM mean a faster weapon. A –10 speed weapon is inherently faster than a 10 speed weapon provided they are both the same type of weapon. WSM and IAS (defined below) are not the same thing. A Runic Talon (-30 WSM) of Quickness (40 IAS) does not have a WSM of –70. It is still a –30 WSM claw for attack speed purposes.


    Base Attack Speed
    Base attack speed is based off of weapon type and character type. Each class has different base attack speeds and maximum attack speeds for the different weapon types. For the assassin class these are:

    Base Frames per attack by weapon type
    Weapon type__________________base fpa__max fpa
    Claws(single claw)_____________13________7
    Claws(dual claw)_______________17________10
    kicks__________________________12________7
    Dtalon follow-up kicks_________4_________2
    One handed swinging weapons____14________8
    Two handed swords______________22________13
    One handed thrusting weapons___14________8
    Two handed thrusting weapons___22________13
    Two handed swinging weapons____18________10
    Bows___________________________15________9
    Crossbows______________________20________11
    Throwing ______________________14________8


    The base attack speeds in this chart are what an assassins attack speed would be when using these weapons with a 0 WSM, no IAS and Burst of Speed is not active.

    The single claw and dual claw can be confusing. The single claw entry refers to all attacks made with a claw when only one claw is equipped. The dual claw entry refers to using Fists of Fire, Claws of Thunder, Blades of Ice and Dragon Claw with two claws equipped. It doesn’t refer to Normal attack, Tiger Strike, Cobra Strike or Phoenix Strike with two claws equipped. Those attacks will have the same maximum and minimum attack speeds as the single claw entry. Told you it can be confusing ?.

    The maximum attack speeds in this chart are the upper limit of how fast an assassin can attack with these weapons. After you hit the maximum that is listed here, more IAS will do no good. With the exception of using a multi-hit cross class skill such as Zeal, an assassin can’t go any faster than what is listed for the weapon.

    Kick skills are listed in this chart on their own. While they utilize the WSM and possibly the IAS off of your weapon, they don’t actually attack with that weapon. So, the possible 2 frame follow-up kicks by Dragon Talon don’t violate these maximum attack speed values for a given weapon.

    You may have heard that Fists of Fire, Claws of Thunder, Blades of Ice and Dragon Claw can attack at 5 frames. They don’t. The attack animation includes hits from both claws which has a maximum attack speed of 10 frames. That averages to 5 frames/hit. When people refer to a 5 frame Dragon Claw, they mean 5 frames per hit and a 10 frame overall attack.


    IAS
    IAS stands for Increased Attack Speed. This modifier increases the rate at which your character attacks. IAS is subject to diminishing returns (see the equation in the EIAS paragraph below). Meaning that as you add more IAS, it has less of an effect on your attack speed. It takes far less IAS to go from a 13-frame attack to a 12-frame attack than it does to go from an 8-frame attack to a 7-frame attack. None of the assassin’s standard attacks differentiate between IAS on weapons and IAS on other equipment. When using a Chaos runeword claw, the assassin has access to the Whirl Wind skill which does differentiate between such IAS, but I’ll refer you to the barbarian forum for explanations on how the Whirl Wind skill is affected when dual wielding weapons.


    EIAS
    EIAS stands for Effective Increased Attack Speed. This is found by the following equation:

    EIAS = ((120 * IAS) / (120 + IAS)) + skill_ias – WSM

    The skill_ias referred to in this equation is the attack speed bonus added by skills such as Burst of Speed and Fanaticism. The bonuses added by these skills are not subject to the diminishing returns. WSM and skill_ias directly affect your EIAS. IAS on your gear does not. Throughout this document I’ll be referring to both EIAS and IAS. Make sure you understand the difference, as the two are definitely not interchangeable.


    Frames per Attack
    Diablo 2 runs at 25 frames per second. Your attack speed is the number of those frames that it takes to complete an attack. I’ve underlined the word “complete†because “attack†means the full animation, not just the hit. If you watch the attack you’ll see your assassin swing the claw out, then hit, and finally the claw swings back to her side. The attack animation isn’t done until the claw returns to it’s starting position. If you are timing attacks and trying to work out how fast they are, take this into account. If you started timing at the beginning of the attack, you need to stop the timer at the end of the animation, not at the point of the hit.

    Because attack animations can’t be in fractions of frames, when adding IAS or changing to a weapon with a faster WSM to increase attack speed we have what are called break points. These are the points at which a given setup will add or drop frames to its attack animation length. The various Attack speed tables you might have seen are a listing of where these break points are given certain setups.



    Dual Claw Setups

    Now that the basics are out of the way, let’s move onto some dual claw specific information.

    The first thing you probably need to know is which of your claws is dominant. Why? Well, later I’m going to start talking about averaging WSMs and IAS on the non-dominant claw not affecting attack speeds. First of all, when I refer to left hand claw and right hand claw in this document, I mean the claws on the left and right of the Character screen, not the claws in your assassin’s left and right hands as you see them while questing or playing. The rules are pretty simple, but still cause confusion at times.

    1. Initially, the claw that you equip first regardless of what side it is on will be your dominant (or primary) claw. The claw you equip second will be referred to as your non-dominant, off-hand, or secondary claw.
    2. If you unequip one of your claws, the one that is still equipped becomes your dominant claw, regardless of which side it is on, when you re-equip the another claw, even if you re-equip the same claw and it was dominant before you unequipped it.
    3. If you use the weapon switch feature to change to a different weapon setup and then switch back to your original setup, the claw on the left-hand side of the character screen will be dominant. It doesn’t matter which claw was dominant before you weapon switched. The game defaults to the one on the left side. If you wish the right claw to be dominant, you’ll have to unequip and then re-equip the left-hand claw (see rule two for why you remove the left instead of the right claw) for the right one to regain dominance after weapon switching.
    4. If you die and go recover your body, the claw on the left side of the character screen will be re-equipped first. If you were using a right claw dominant setup, you’ll need to unequip and re-equip the left claw to get back to the setup you were using. This is one rule that just doesn’t affect those of us who play hardcore :D.

    It’s normally easier to just equip the claw you wish to be dominant first and on the left-hand side if you are going to use your weapon switch often. A lot of times it will be inconvenient to open your inventory, unequip and then re-equip your left claw. Say, for instance, if you were are in the middle of a fight.

    There is a reason to equip a claw first and on the right, but I’ll get to that later.

    I should mention that in the beta for the 1.10 patch this claw dominance was also affected by using a waypoint, taking a town portal and teleporting, but as of the final version of this patch none of these things affect which of your claws is dominant.


    Second, you should know some things about the attacks themselves. I’ll divide the Martial Arts attacks up into six types. First we have the normal (default) attack. Second, the “animal†charge-ups Tiger Strike, Cobra Strike, and Phoenix Strike. Third come the “elemental†charge-ups, Fists of Fire, Claws of Thunder, and Blades of Ice. Fourth is the Dragon Claw finisher. In fifth, we have the kick finisher, Dragon Talon. Finally, there is the kick finisher Dragon Tail. Hereafter, I’ll simply be referring to normal, animal, elemental, DC (Dragon Claw), Talon, and Tail attacks. Refer back to this if you are unsure which group the attack you are dealing with fits into. Dragon Flight isn’t included in this list as it doesn’t rely solely on attack speed, but rather needs faster cast rate items also. As such, it’s out of the scope of this document.

    Dual Claw WSM penalty
    When using two claws, the normal, elemental, and DC attacks suffer a penalty of 25 to your WSM. If you have a WSM of –30, it becomes –5 for figuring speeds with these attacks. A WSM of 10 becomes 35 for figuring speeds with these attacks.
    Also, for the single claw users out there, the elemental charge-ups can be used with a single claw and still take the WSM penalty although their base attack will be 13 frames with a maximum of 7 frames as opposed to 17 and 10 with dual claws. Normal attacks done with a single claw setup don’t take the penalty. DC can’t be used with a single claw.


    Normal Attack
    The only one of the six attack types listed whose attack speed won’t be affected by which claw is dominant is the normal attack. So, I’ll talk about it separately. The Normal attack alternates between your claws. Each claw uses it’s own WSM to determine its attack speed.
    Each claw individually will take the WSM penalty of 25 to its WSM.
    IAS, however, is additive from both claws. If you have one claw with 40 IAS on it and a second claw with no IAS, the attacks of both claws will be figured with 40 IAS. A setup where one claw has 40 IAS and the other has 20 IAS would lead to figuring the speed of both claws with 60 IAS. This is the only attack where IAS from both claws adds together.
    Although this attack takes the WSM penalty of 25 when used with dual claws, it still has a base attack speed of 13 frames and a maximum attack speed of 7 frames.


    Animal Charge-ups
    These attacks will have a base attack speed of 13 frames and a maximum attack speed of 7 frames when used with two claws.
    The animal charge-ups do not take the WSM penalty of 25.
    Only the IAS on your dominant weapon will affect your attack speed. IAS on the off-hand claw will not affect attack speed.


    Elemental charge-ups
    These attacks have a base attack speed of 17 frames and a maximum attack speed of 10 frames when used with two claws.
    When using the calculator at http://stats.diabloii.net/calcs/wspeed.shtml, you’ll have to select manual as the weapon class and enter 17 in for the base.
    These attacks do take the WSM penalty of 25.
    Only the IAS on your dominant weapon will affect your attack speed. IAS on the off-hand claw will not affect attack speed


    Dragon Claw
    This attack has a base speed of 17 frames and a maximum speed of 10 frames. It can only be used with dual claws.
    When using the calculator at http://stats.diabloii.net/calcs/wspeed.shtml, you’ll have to select manual as the weapon class and enter 17 in for the base.
    This attack does take the WSM penalty of 25.
    Only the IAS on your dominant weapon will affect your attack speed. IAS on the off-hand claw will not affect attack speed


    Dragon Talon
    This attack has a base attack speed of 12 frames and a maximum attack speed of 7 frames with all weapon setups. Dragon Talon also includes multiple subsequent kicks, which have a base attack speed of 4 frames and a maximum attack speed of 2 frames.
    When using the calculator at http://stats.diabloii.net/calcs/wspeed.shtml, you'll have to select manual as the weapon class and enter 12 in for the base. This calculator doesn't list the speed of Dtalon's follow-up kicks. The breakpoints for those are: 0 to 24 EIAS puts them at 4 frames. 25 to 66 EIAS makes for 3 frame follow up kicks. 67+ EIAS will get you 2 frame follow up kicks.
    This attack does not take the WSM penalty of 25.
    Only the IAS on your dominant weapon will affect your attack speed. IAS on the off-hand claw will not affect attack speed

    Dragon Tail
    Dragon Tail is separated from Dragon Talon for a very good reason. It comes with a WSM penalty all its own. It's a steep penalty of 40 tacked directly onto your WSM. This was not reported in the kicking document (That document will have been changed by the time you read this!).
    The attack has a base speed of 12 frames and a maximum speed of 7 frames.
    When using the calculator at http://stats.diabloii.net/calcs/wspeed.shtml, you'll have to select manual as the weapon class and enter 12 in for the base.
    This attack does not take the WSM penalty of 25. Thank God! A total penalty of 65 would be too much to overcome for all but a few builds.
    Only the IAS on your dominant weapon will affect your attack speed. IAS on the off-hand claw will not affect attack speed



    The only thing left really is to talk about how WSMs are figured for dual claw setups when using attacks other than normal attack. These will differ depending on which side your dominant claw is.


    Left side dominant
    The left side will be dominant if you’ve equipped the left one first or if you’ve weapon switched without resetting claw dominance.
    Your WSM for attacks with the left side dominant will be the average of the WSMs of your two claws. A –30 claw used with a –10 claw will yield a WSM of –20. You’ll use the –20 WSM to figure your attack speed with all attacks except the normal attack.


    Right side dominant
    If you’re with me up ‘till now, you’re caught up to where I’m at with all of this. I haven’t been able to come up with the equations to figure WSM when the right claw is dominant. Instead, I’m going to have to just give you the current results of my testing on this.

    First of all, the WSMs are not averaged normally. Using two claws with the same WSM doesn’t seem to cause any problems, but when they have different WSMs, things get strange. Here’s what I’ve posted on this issue so far:

    I equipped a greater talon on the right side. By itself, I saw the expected attack speed, 10 fpa. I then equipped a war fist on the left side. The attack speed went to 9 fpa. That's right, equipping a massively slower claw actually increased the attack speed. As a matter of fact, equipping the greater talon on the right followed by the war fist and then adding 25 IAS brought about a 7 frame attack with TS, CS, and PS as well as a 7/2 Dtalon. The speed with FoF, CoT, BoI, and DC was 11 frames (11 frames total for the attack, not 11 frames/claw). Definitely not averaging the WSMs! For this setup, I can determine the effective WSM is -55! Of course, once you weapon switch it changes and the war fist becomes primary with WSMs once again averaged.

    The opposite happens if you equip the war fist first and on the right. Then the effective WSM once the greater talon is added becomes 27. That's right, this setup has a base attack with PS of 19 frames, far slower than the war fist alone.

    So, although I’m still trying to work out the equations, I can state these things when equipping your right claw first:

    1. Equipping a faster claw followed by a slower claw will result in an attack that's quicker than the faster claw by itself

    2. Equipping a slower claw followed by a faster claw will result in an attack that's slower than the slower claw by itself

    3. Switching weapons will revert the setup back to the default of left claw primary and WSMs averaged. To regain the right claw as primary you need to open the inventory, remove the left claw and then replace it. Your right claw will once again be primary.

    4. The greater the difference between the base speeds of the claws, the greater the increase or decrease you'll get.

    An Example
    Let's just run through this real quick. The setup is as follows:

    A shaeled (20 IAS) greater talon (-30 WSM) equipped left as dominant claw.
    A dual shaeled (40 IAS) scissors suwayyah (0 WSM) equipped right.
    For the purposes of this example we will assume that for some reason she is not wearing any other equipment and running Fade rather than BoS. I'll figure EIAS and use the weapon speed calc at diabloii.net for come up with the frames per attack.

    For a normal attack:
    WSMs of the claws are taken individually and each claw takes the WSM penalty of 25. So my WSMs are -5 for the greater talon and 25 for the scissors suwayyah. Base attack speed will 13 frames per attack. I have a total of 60% IAS which counts towards the speed of both claws. My EIAS with each claw is:
    EIAS = ((120*IAS)/(120+IAS))+skill_IAS-WSM
    Greater Talon EIAS = ((120*60) / (120+60)) + 0 - (-5)
    Greater Talon EIAS = (7200/180) - (-5)
    Greater Talon EIAS = 40-(-5)
    Greater Talon EIAS = 45, which equates to a 9 frame attack speed
    Scissors suwayyah EIAS = ((120*60)/(120+60)) +0 - 25
    Scissors suwayyah EIAS = (7200/180) - 25
    Scissors suwayyah EIAS = 40 - 25
    Scissors suwayyah EIAS = 15, which equates to a 12 frame attack speed

    For an animal charge-up attack:
    Base attack speed is 13 frames. WSM is -15, the average of -30 and 0. Only the IAS on my dominant claw counts here, so IAS is the 20% on the greater talon. Once again, no skill_ias. The equation looks like this:
    Animal EIAS = ((120*20)/(120+20)) + 0 - (-15)
    Animal EIAS = (2400/140) - (-15)
    Animal EIAS = 17 - (-15), decimals are dropped when dividing
    Animal EIAS = 32, which equates to a 10 frame attack

    For an elemental charge-up or DC attack:
    Base attack speed is 17. WSM is 10, that's the average of the two claws and then applying the WSM penalty of 25. IAS is once again 20%. The equation looks like this:
    Elemental EIAS = ((120*20)/(120+20)) + 0 - 10
    Elemental EIAS = 17 - 10
    Elemental EIAS = 7, which equates to a 16 frame attack or an average of 8 frames/hit.

    For a Dragon Talon attack:
    Base attack speed is 12 frames. WSM is -15, the average without the penalty. IAS is 20% again. The equation looks like this:
    Dtalon EIAS = ((120*20)/(120+20)) + 0 - (-15)
    Dtalon EIAS = (2400/140) - (-15)
    Dtalon EIAS = 17 - (-15), decimals are dropped when dividing
    Dtalon EIAS = 32, which equates to a 9 frame attack. We would have 3 frame follow-up kicks (from the above section on kicks, 25 to 66 EIAS makes for 3-frame follow up kicks).

    For a Dragon Tail attack:
    Base attack speed is 12 frames. WSM is 25, that's the average of the two claws plus the penalty of 40 for using Dragon Tail. IAS is 20% again. The equation looks like this:
    Dtail EIAS = ((120*20)/(120+20)) + 0 - 25
    Dtail EIAS = 17- 25
    Dtail EIAS = -8, which equates to a 14 frame attack. What? Negative EIAS you say? Yes, it's possible. It means that your attack will be slower than the base attack speed. The calculator at diabloii.net has -8 EIAS listed as a 13-frame attack for a 25 WSM weapon, but my actual speed testing and the calculator on my site both give the speed as 14 frames.

    That's probably why c/c attack speeds can be so confusing. With the setup listed above, I have attack rates of 9, 12, 10, 16(8), 9/3, and 14 frames. Trying to work this out can be overwhelming if you've been playing for a while let alone if you're just starting.

    For those interested, here are the attack rates if we equipped the greater talon first and on the right:
    Normal attack, 9 and 12 frames (the same)
    Animal attacks, 8 frames
    Elemental and DC, 13 frames
    Talon, 8 frames (only tested a single kick talon)
    Tail, 10 frames




    I hope I’ve managed to do what I set out to do here. Give myself and anyone who reads this a clearer understanding of how their attack speeds are affected by dual claw setups. I can’t think of anything else to add at the moment, so I must be done.

    jrichard
     
  5. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    Sticky please.
     
  6. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    jrichard: Due to a lack of sticky space, I have to merge this thread with the 'Kicking Basics' thread. Very nice work, and easy to understand.
     
  7. Syphilis

    Syphilis IncGamers Member

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    reply to C/C attack speed info consolidated

    a lot of C/C kickers are using bartucks+jade or strengh greater talon + jade
    reading your info, we should have the -30 claw (dominent) on the right and the -10 jade on the left and, when swithching back from +3SDclaws*2, we should unequip and reequip the jade.
    right ?

    and can you figure the way to know the WSM ?
     
  8. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    syphilis,

    That's right on the claw order.

    I still haven't worked out how the WSM is being figured with setups that are equipped right side first. sorry.

    jrichard
     
  9. Jerkazoid

    Jerkazoid IncGamers Member

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    jrichards site is down right now. an has been for a few days?

    is there a place where that excel sheet can be downloaded, i use it soo much.
     
  10. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    I've been able to access the site, hmm.

    The link on the main page to the calc is down until i can update it. The calc page is still on the site, however, at: http://e.domaindlx.com/JRichard/D2/attackcalc/attackcalc.xls

    That should bring it up. If that doesn't work, PM me with an email address and i'll send you the excel file.

    jrichard
     
  11. obeah

    obeah IncGamers Member

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    -25% target defense (from eth rune) works on dominant claw and secondary claw?
     
  12. obeah

    obeah IncGamers Member

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    what about the fast hit recovey? if i use bartucs as secondary claw i will get that mod?
     
  13. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    IIRC, you should get the FHR from the off-hand claw, but i don't believe you'll get the -target defense.

    jrichard
     
  14. Jerkazoid

    Jerkazoid IncGamers Member

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    you mention that only the first kick in Dtalon takes tiger strike ed% but i could swear that my duelers seem to get tremendous kick dmg boost on all their kicks with TS charged.



    is this some sorta illusion, am i just stupid?

    is this possible bc the AR stays so high and im just getting in more hits? that doesnt really explain the huge dmg boost it apears to give my lvl 9 dueler.

    when she misses the initial kicks to realease.. ill get off maybe another 3 - 5 kicks and the dmg will be a huge % more then if they are uncharged.

    infact i pray that my first kicks miss so that the following ones still have the 3 charges on them, and i dont have to resort to my slower and lower AR claw strikes
     
  15. jrichard

    jrichard IncGamers Member

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    Hmm, haven't actually looked at TS/Dtalon since just after this patch came out. I have some testing to do on the current theory for c/c attack speeds with the right claw equipped first, i'll run some dtalon tests when i do that testing to see. I don't remember ever noticing TS being applied to more than the first kick that landed. That's one thing which might be affecting what you see, the TS is applied on the first kick that lands, not just the intial kick. If that initial kick misses, it will be applied on the next.

    Btw, just to let everyone know where the atttack speed testing is at, currently Akriel over at the AB suggested that the WSM averaging might be using this formula: Average(x,y)=x+(y-x)/2. A sign error in the equation when the right side is equipped first would leave this as: x-(y-x)/2. That seems to get the numbers closer to working out to match the testing i'd done better than any other theory i've had. I still need to do the time consuming part of this, the testing. Hopefully, i'll have time yet this week to equip incremental amouts of IAS and time attacks at each amount to find where the frame bps are and work out the actual WSM to see if this theory will hold up.

    jrichard
     
  16. Jerkazoid

    Jerkazoid IncGamers Member

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    that certanly cant be right then..
    charges seem to stay active for severeal kicks.

    {EDIT}
    ok i just tested this very second with my lvl 9 on a lvl 26 assasin in a pub dueling game

    charged to 3 globes
    began kicking (DT slvl 6 BTW with TC slvl 9)
    character Life bar dropped to about 20% remaining after about 3-4 sequences of kicks (then they ran into town)

    My charges were also STILL on... i asked if the charges had stayed on.. they said "yes"... so its not a display bug.
    then they vanished as the timmer ran out on them.

    my kick dmg is 50-90 2 kicks on my level 9 without charges
    tested those kicks without and the character was loosing about 5% (a sliver) of their life. very bad dmg... (i have NO crushing, no OW btw)

    with 3 charges my kick was at about 300 dmg and i was taking off CHUNKS of their life..

    dmg is about 200-300 with 3 charges.

    its very noticable and i cant explain why they dont release if they should,, but im glad the ed% stays active it makes the lvl 9 TS/KICKER hyrbid SUPER DUPER!
     
  17. Jerkazoid

    Jerkazoid IncGamers Member

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    oops :i ment it was 300-500 with 3 charges... its 200-300 with 2 charges only.
     
  18. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    I find it strange Blizzard would make an exception with TS and DTalon working together...PS and DTalon doesn't trigger multiple effects, don't know why TS would...
     
  19. Jerkazoid

    Jerkazoid IncGamers Member

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    it most certainly is not working PVM,,,,i have been making imbue mules for the past 2 hours and tried to get the same effect with DT + TS on them.. never works.. so i go full DT... but it most defienetly is working PVP

    its variable though to.. sometimes i can get two or three kicks.. sometimes it realese on the first.. sometiems i get 5 or more kicks in and kill the opponent FAST.
     
  20. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    Just for kicks(no pun intended): do you have any Deadly Strike or Crushing Blow on your equipment?
     

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