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Kicker Gear Choices

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by D2Freak91776, May 10, 2005.

  1. D2Freak91776

    D2Freak91776 IncGamers Member

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    Kicker Gear Choices

    I am experimenting with a PvP kicker right now. There are many different choices in gear but what would be the best?

    Helm: Dream/Shako/Gaze

    Armor: Enigma/Bramble/Fortitude

    Weapon: Chaos + Fury/Chaos + Shadow Killer/Chaos + Shield/ Azurewrath+shield

    Rings: Ravenfrost/Carrionwind/Angelics

    Amulet: Angelics/Metalgrid/Atma's Scarab/ Saracen's Chance/Highlords Wrath

    Belt: Nosferatu's Coil/Verdungos/Arachnid Mesh

    Boots: Upped Gores/Shadow Dancers

    Which choices would be most effective?
     
  2. TheKing

    TheKing IncGamers Member

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    Helm: CoA
    Armor: enigma
    Weapon: fury+bartuc
    Rings: raven + rare(10% fcr+ ar + stats + rez)
    Amulet: rare (2 assa skills+ 20 fcr+ ar bonus+ stats + life+ rez)
    Belt: arach
    Boots: Dancers
     
  3. Mr.Grimmy

    Mr.Grimmy IncGamers Member

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    If your limited on funds and can't afford some of the items listed above i got a few alternatives.

    An Umed Shako is great (if you use shadow dancers or tucs you really dont' need the additional fhr from CoA)

    The setup that The King posted would be great gear for claw/claw and perfet as a caster killer.

    I personally like using claw shield on my kicker. Here is why:

    Buy using a stormshield, i can use much cheaper gear and still maintain great resists, good speed, and 50% physical damage reduction. Stormshield plus um'd shako give 45% pdr, as well as some good resists. This leaves me free to use burst of speed instead of fade.
    This way i don't rely on enigma for my speed. Don't laugh, but I actually use lionheart. It give more life than enigma, and the str +20% ed is equivalent to the damage increase from the str on enigma. It also has good resists, and a nice chunk of dexterity. If you can't lower yourself to use lionhear, another great armor is duress. Still pretty cheap, has resists, lots of open wounds and even some crushing blow.

    Here is my setup

    Shako (will soon hopefully be um'd)
    ammy 20 res all +2 assasin skills skills
    lionheart :)
    2x ravenfrosts (gotta love 13k ar without angelics)
    pdiamond stormshield
    For weapon i switch around a lot, tucs, wizardspike.... Also anything with crushing blow or open wounds is great
    Dracul's grasp (massive open wounds)
    Thundergods Vigor (20 Str 20 Vit +10 max light res= how can you go wrong?)
    Shadow dancers (if i had upped gores i would probably use those, provided that I had another source of Fhr)
    As for charms and such, i use a couple of plain shadow skillers, and the rest is mainly random small charms that i have found.

    With this setup I have 75 res all (85 lightning res) , 45% pdr, and max block in hell, while using burst of speed.


    This equipment is far from godly, but it does pretty well in the pubbies :) The only real problem chars are BvBs, bone necros (that is where you want dual claws), and sorcies with 120+ faster cast (again this is where you want dual claws)

    Good luck, and have fun. Kickers are a lot of fun to play
     
  4. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    Yup.

    And
    gloves: trangs
    10 shadow skill gcs
    9 life/mana sc
    socket tucs with res all jewel.
    socket coa with ias/res.

    Also, best stats on the fc ring are AR and mana. Beyond those everything is nice to have.
     
  5. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    Open wounds is far better than CB generally. Crushing blow seems nice intially but when you run the numbers it doesn't pan out. Open wounds is critical for the hardest kicker match-up of all: High defense hammer pallies with charge for movement.
     
  6. Mr.Grimmy

    Mr.Grimmy IncGamers Member

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    I agree that open wounds is better than crushing blow... But if you get the two mods on the same item as with duress or gore riders, then its really not costing you anything for that little extra omph. And for some reason crushing blow seems to work wonders on the bone necros that exploit the marrowwalk bug. Even with 900 life bone armor the cb seems to take them down quickly

    If your refering to the weapon, then yeah, would be nice to have something with open wounds, but iirc the cap is 75. I get 25 from gloves, 15 from boots, and 33 from duress. so that really frees up your weapon to be whatever you want. I use wizard spike a lot for the cast and resists.
    When Im using lionheart i still have about 40% so about every 3rd hit i retrigger. Works pretty well except vs the hard to hit chars as you mentioned.
     
  7. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    If crushing blow happens to be on an item that you are using anyway, then you have it by default. It doesn't help in PvP though. The numbers on this were run over and over, then they were tested. In PvP, the aid from crushing blow is almost negligible. You may have had situation where you took down bone armor nicely and figured it was your crushing blow, but it really was not. Seriously.
     
  8. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

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    You are confused. There is no cap. Since you can only trigger OW once per attack, anything past 100% is useless.

    Malice, anyone?
     
  9. Mr.Grimmy

    Mr.Grimmy IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the correction. I remember reading somewhere that there was a max of 75% chance of open wounds even in the item had more (wondered at the time about malice). Sooo, glad to hear I am wrong because then malice is just that much better.

    Speederlander. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was just commenting that if you are using a weapon say for open wounds, and it happens to have crushing blow on it, then that is just frosting on the cake.

    I think that when you are considering crushing blow in pvp not being effective there is the assumption that normal kick damage is fairly high. I have one kicker who has low strength for a kicker and does only about 700-1100 kick damage (not that great). I do see a nice improvement in killing power when i slap on a weapon with good crushing blow. I realize that this is not the standard build for kicker, and therefore is of limited usefulness.

    A quick example. I am kicking a barb with 6k life and 50% damage reduction.

    Lets say i do 1200 aveage damage with a kick (don't I wish) then after the 1/6 penalty for PvP and 50% reduction 1 do a whopping 100 damage.

    Now lets say i get lucky with crushing blow (1/10 penalty pvp) = 600 damage, which is now reduced 50% giving us 300 damage.

    Of course this depends on the opponents life. if i am dueling a sorcy with 2000 life then the damage work out to be the same.

    I went and tried to find posts with an analysis of crushing blow for kickers in pvp and didn't find anything detailed. I found many people advocating its use, and many people saying that cb wasn't effective enought to warrent replacing better gear with cb gear. If you could post the analysis your talking about I would love to look at it.
     
  10. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    Actually, that is a fairly reasonable physical damage range for a kicker.

    You can get more damage out of venom than with physical barring the use of amp. Thus punching up physical damage beyond about 1200 max has diminishing returns for your gear and stats.

    "Getting lucky" is EXACTLY the problem. Unless you design around CB and get the % high, your average damage resulting from CB is actually not high. Your very first kick just got you a CB of 300 on a 6K life barb. Now, apply your average CB number (say 40%, which is high, to give you benefit of the doubt), and your average CB damage on your first kick over multiple duels becomes 120. It only goes down from there. This is why venom and/or open wounds is far far superior to physical for almost all builds (with a couple exceptions like titans and high amp damage %). Further, 95% of your opponents will not have 6K life, meaning CB inflicts far less damage on average. Assume the average decent opponent has say, 3K life with 50% reduction. This means that your first, and only first CB, if it triggers, will cause an AVERAGE ACROSS DUELS of 60 damage, assuming it triggers when the target is at full life. This number for CB RAPIDLY drops as target life drops. Most duelers don't even have 40% CB and if you try to design it in, you are trading other potentially important stats.

    I don't deny that it CAN help. But it is nothing more than nice to have. It looks good initially, but falls off rapidly with your opponent's life.
     
  11. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    Heh, you're back too? My main characters lapsed. I logged on to your accounts a few times to keep them alive but I ended up uninstalling for the school year. Did they all make it or did some lapse?
     
  12. TheKing

    TheKing IncGamers Member

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    Speederländer you should write a kicker(anti-caster) guide!

    PS: i know that you have a mini guide... but you should write a big one :D
     
  13. Mr.Grimmy

    Mr.Grimmy IncGamers Member

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    I did a little further checking and it seems that crushing blow is applied before weapon damage is applied. In this case if i am interpiting the info correctly damage from crushing blow is added in addition to weapon damage. If this is the case than let us rework my example with a couple of different scenarios.

    http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=551

    Here is an example that proves your point.
    2k life sorcy with 50% damage reduction
    if we assume only 25% crushing blow (very easily attainable), and we use an average value of life for the sorcy for calculating crushing blow (ie, 1k)
    We can figure out the number of kicks needed to kill her with and without crushing blow.

    Without its simple: 2000 / 100 = 20 kicks
    With cb its: 2000 / (100 +0.25*50)= 18 kicks
    As you suggest ( and i agree this is an almost worthless addition)


    And here is an example that shows a different picture
    Now let us consider a similar scenario agains a barb with 4k life, 50% pdr, and this time our test sin has 75% crushing blow (duress, gores, blood gloves, fleshripper) again assuming average life for applying the crushing blow (2k)

    without crushing blow: 4000/100=40
    with cb its: 4000 (100+.75*100) = 23
    Obviously quite a big difference in kill speed in this case


    now if we assume that in both cases each char has max block it will be roughly 4 times as many kicks to kill, which doesn't really change the sorcy example, but does change the barb example quite a bit.
    now it would be 160 vs 92. This is all very hypothetical i know, ignoring open wounds and venom which both play critical roles. After pvp open wounds can do 500-800 pvp damage over 8 seconds depending on lvl iirc. During that 8 seconds i can get in about 50 kicks. With 75% chance of crushing blow and using that barb as an example that is about 1k of damage from cb assuming he blocks 75%.

    So i guess in summary, i agree that vs casters with lower life crushing blow is not important for the most part. But then how hard is it for a kicker to slaugter a sorcie anyway? The toughest battles seem to be vs high life melee chars, and this is exactly where crushing blow shines.
     
  14. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    The toughest battles are: High defense hammer pallys that charge, actually.

    A kicker will never beat a GOOD barb. I'm sorry, it's the truth. If you build around taking down melee ONLY, with a focus on the high life variants (i.e. barbs), then you will be a one-trick pony (and ultimately not very successful). And you will have to focus your gear towards barbs if you want to beat even the moderately decent ones. You can stack CB to 100% if you like. A decent high life, high def, 75% block, 50% DR WW-barb will eat your lunch. You will beat bad barbs, yes. But the good ones are simply out of reach except for the very occasional lucky duel with lots of OW hits and some fancy footwork on your part.

    By using all those CB items, you are limiting yourself. First: duress means you only have DF available and not tele.
    DF is:
    1. Interruptible
    2. Buggy
    3. No longer extendable off your screen.
    In short, it's a non-dependable mode of transport to your target IF THEY ARE GOOD, mobile and aggressive. Vs. average pubby duelers, DF is probably fine.

    Next, what is your kick speed with that set-up? Are you making your breakpoints while still in fade mode? I know fleshripper has no natural IAS mod so you will have to work to get the BP. Further, fleshripper is SLOWER than a greater or runic talon (-20 speed vs. -30 speed). Therefore your average damage and stunning ability is reduced due to fewer attacks/time.

    Next, you need to consider ALL variables from your equipment. By going with the CB gear, did you lose venom levels? Some physical damage? Is your AR lower meaning you are hitting less often? All of this has to be figured into your damage comparisons. You will find, when all is said and done, that CB is nice-to-have but nothing special. I'm serious man. I did the numbers and other people have done the numbers. I have even played various CB builds to test things out in duels.

    Finally, how do you factor the lost mobility and other non-damage numbers that change due to using one type of equipment over another? What about the loss of life and skills and DR from enigma vs. duress? The +str on enigma gets you a nice life boost (and damage if you like). This is multiplied greatly if you use CTA (both from the extra +2 skills to CTA BO and the extra life available for the CTA to boost). Something to think about.

    I don't say these things to sound pompous. I am merely trying to save you a lot of build time and/or effort. Further, you often may THINK something is helping you when its actually a confluence of variables assisting in your wins, and NOT the factor you are focusing on.
     
  15. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    My ladder anti-caster kicker with 10x 44 and 45 life shadow GCs lapsed due to my not checking in so I'm done with playing sins for a bit. Getting those charms and everything else was months of effort. I'm going to go on the cheap and do a dual wizzy BvC barb for a while. Seems like fun. Besides, I'm doing a Diablo dueling clone program for my final degree project and I want to get a better feel for other builds in the game. My goal is to capture the action in Diablo PvP (and maybe add a little bit here and there). I can't do that unless I branch out some. I've played a lot of builds in 1.08 and 1.09 in Gimmeitam, but I've only done assassins since 1.10 came out.
     
  16. Mr.Grimmy

    Mr.Grimmy IncGamers Member

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    Speederlander,

    I don't think you’re pompous and i'm not trying to argue with you just for the sake of arguing. I just think that a more in depth discussion often leads to more information being available for people and is a good thing.

    Your right about the good ww barbs being unattainable for a kicker. But there are other high life chars out there besides good ww barbs. Wind druids often have a lot of life, and being able to kill them fast is a must. Hell, I dueled a trapper the other day who had just over 3k life.

    And we seem to be not seeing eye to eye on the gear issues. This is probably because I don't use the cookie cutter kicker gear. I don't use enigma because I don’t' want to bother with teleport and the need for faster cast, (besides duress is much cheaper) and find that dragon flight is just fine. Yes, this causes problems with some casters, and drags out the duel but I still do pretty well.

    As for fleshripper being slow, I duel with BoS on. I can't afford godly shadow disc/life gcs so I use resist and life small charms instead. Therefore I attain the last kick breakpoint while still having max resists, and plenty of mobility without enigma. I use a shako instead of CoA, since I get my fhr from duress, and pdr from stormshield. I also get 120 life from the shako which more than makes up for the little I loose not having enigma.

    As for the extra skills from enigma, 1 is made up by using shako over CoA, and in the end I lose a 3% life from a lower lvl BO, but have a higher base life from the shako.

    I am not necessarily questioning your judgment or trying to say that you are wrong. You obviously have a build, have worked the numbers, and it works for you. I just think that you are perhaps over generalizing by saying that using cb specific gear is always a bad idea. Not everyone has 10x shadow skillers with sweet second mods, enigma, cta, CoA and fury that they can duel with. There are alternatives out there, and perhaps they are not the supreme kill-all build, but they are more easily attainable for the common player. Besides variety is the spice of life. :)
    I guess my point is there is more than one way to skin a druid, paladin, etc. And I was simply pointing out that there alternatives to the standard build that are viable.

    If you can point me to an in depth discussion of the mechanics behind crushing blow i am still interested.

    Cheers :)
     
  17. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

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    Yep, I'm back, mostly. I've given up on Battle.net due to connection and time issues. A friend of mine also took over the accounts once he figured out that most everything was being left untouched. I never really gave out my main account to anyone, so I think that's completely expired now.

    I've stuck around the forums and some minor dinking around in single player - players 8, untwinked, hardcore stuff. I want to get a kicker through Hell. First I need to remind myself not to use Talon on LE Counsil members... (Lost my lvl 62 kicker that way last week.)

    Anyway, this is a wee bit off topic, so it'll be my only post about it.


    I was actually the one who ran most of the numbers on this. *looks for some threads* Uh, I'm not turning up any of the classic threads where I punched out the numbers and displayed them. I still have the Excel sheets if someone really wants to get picky.

    Anyway, short summary -
    • Open Wounds does a ton of unresistable damage over a long period of time - comparing OW with CB requries assumptions on how often someone hits and other issues.
    • With 100% CB against a player with 3k life and 0 PDR, there will be about 50 PvP damage per hit. Halve that number for decent PDR, though it will never be increased passed that value with negative DR.
    • The Magic Damage on Chaos will provide more damage than the stuff from CB.
    • There has been discussion that CB can go through Bone Armor, though I am completely unsure of the mechanics for that. Note: OW/Venom will pierce anyway.

    The reason it seems like the subject is being glossed over is the extent it was discussed earlier. In short, it just isn't worth the payoffs.


    --edit--
    Actually, no. The life from mods +vit, +life/lvl, and +vit/lvl are not boosted by BO. That includes Shako, Annihilus charm, and Verdungo's cord. Your base vitality (from using character points) will get boosted along with any source of plain +life (xx/20 charms for example).
     
  18. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    I think the issue here was the vit you could gain by saving the str from enigma and the +2 skills from enigma that went to your CTA BO. Or were you referring to something else?
     
  19. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

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    Something else, though your point is equally valid (and possibly more important). The +% life (BO, Jah runes, etc.) does not apply to +vit (items I listed before, io runes, etc.)
     
  20. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    And that is a critical point for anyone thinking of using a weapon because it has high CB.
     

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