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Kevorkian released from prison

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by llad12, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. WildBerry

    WildBerry Diabloii.Net Member

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    Got me there, I was going to add "this is going to be country specific". Should've done that, I see.

    As a reminder, my country hasn't executed people since war and currently has no legislation that would allow such matters during peacetime.

    However, in the first case there is a clear violation of the Hippocratean Oath.

    Wiki:

    Notice that "no one" includes the patient herself.

    I do recognise that the previous can be, in turn, in conflict with this.

    ...and that there are dated parts anyway in the Oath. But the fact that doctors take the oath is something to think of anyway.



     
  2. pip boy

    pip boy Diabloii.Net Member

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    So how does that work when it comes to pulling the plug on a coma patient.

    Is the doctor not allowed to suggest it, and has to just wait for the family to say, or does he suggest it (therefor breaking the oath)



    But tbh im playing devils advocate here, i dont think the doctor should have to do this unless he wants to, or that someone who isnt a doctor can do it.
     
  3. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    And for the record, I agree with your country in such matters. =)
    So recommending surgery to a patient is out, then? =P



     
  4. WildBerry

    WildBerry Diabloii.Net Member

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    Uh, no, it's left for the guy who can do it :smiley:

    Yeah, like I said there are dated parts.



     
  5. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    I don't have to justify my belief to you. I just don't. I already gave a few examples... such as... I don't believe medical professionals should be involved in the process (see my next statements involving medical professionals). Uhmmm.... Jeebus? :rolleyes:



    Euthanasia was part of the conversation. It was actually a side-track to the main point.

    Because realistically the ONLY way assisted suicide will ever be considered to be legal, would be under direction of a doctor. Ergo, I'm against it.

    Furthermore, I never alienated doctors as the only people I'd be opposed to. As I recall, my statement specifically stated I'm against anyone assisting in the suicide of another in a legal mannor.

    This argument has absolutely nothing to do with me impeding other people right's or choices. I stated long ago in this thread that I'm not against people taking their own lives. The argument that someone couldn't take their own life is a miniscule consideration at best.

    Good god people, you're acting like I'm making some personal affront against your individual rights.



     
  6. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    I believe your argument about a coma patient is an entirely different debate to be honest. In that case we're talking about artificially sustained life... not about a patient wanting to end their life. Using this example only muddies the argument by introducing another.

    IIRC doctors often leave the decision in the hands of family when it comes to "pulling the plug" in cases like this. But then... that's another can of worms for another thread.



     
  7. pip boy

    pip boy Diabloii.Net Member

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    Actually thats what i wanted someone to say.

    The descision should be in the hands of the individual, or if hes unable to communicate, the family, it should not be the doctors decision. So i dont agree with the hypocratic oath argument, thats just saying that maybe the doctor shouldnt do it if he so choses.



     
  8. WildBerry

    WildBerry Diabloii.Net Member

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    Intentional pun or typo?

    You decide!



     
  9. Star Dust

    Star Dust Diabloii.Net Member

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    Finally, an answer.

    I know you don't have to justify your beliefs. I was just asking. But, of course, if you don't, nobody can believe that they are justfied. And the ones across the table from you on this issue aren't going to be convinced, not that that's your aim, just FYI.

    Not our conversation.

    How do you figure? Check out this post of mine.

    It has absolutely everything to do with it. What about the people who want to die but physically can't take their own lives? What about the people who don't want to leave a mess on the pavement or railroad tracks? What about the people who want to do it with minimal fear of screwing it up, with full knowledge that the method works, and/or without fear that they'll severely injure themselves without accomplishing the task?



     
  10. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    There are a lot of ways a person can take their own life based on information available. If they want to do it, that's fine. I won't try to stop them nor will I vote for legislation to try and stop them. I already mentioned that cases where a person wouldn't be able to take their own life would represent a miniscule (at best) portion of case scenarios. Even in these cases I fully believe that "pain and suffering" can be managed through medications (no one even seems to acknowledge they understand the concept of hospice).

    I will, however, vote for legislation that opposes assisted suicide. If you feel otherwise, vote the opposite way. As I said before, that's the beauty of a democratic system. Should your viewpoint win, more power to you... I for one would no hard feelings.

    If you honestly think that any form of assisted suicide would be legalized that doesn't include supervision by a medical professional, then I'm going to call you Naive at best.
     
  11. Star Dust

    Star Dust Diabloii.Net Member

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    So your argument is that you'd be trampling the rights of only a miniscule amount of people?

    You don't need to be a medical professional in order to effectively assist in someone's suicide. If a law were passed that prohibited non-medical professionals from doing so, I'd be against it. Call me naive all you want; it's still just name calling.

    By the way, I wouldn't have any hard feelings either. I also know the democratic process and like it. But I also like having these sorts of arguments. There's an opportunity to learn something. That's the beauty of reason.
     
  12. TakeMyCrabs

    TakeMyCrabs Diabloii.Net Member

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    The democratic process has some flaws... ex: mob rule.

    LunarSolaris, as Saro stated, who are YOU to decide if another individual's pain and suffering are manageable?

    Also, if a medical professional SUPERVISES but does not interefere, that doesn't go against their oath, does it?
     
  13. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    lol

    Let's have a vote on whether or not to expel black people from the US. Lunar's democracy in action!



     
  14. Dondrei

    Dondrei Diabloii.Net Member

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    And if you follow the logic of the slippery slope then you're on a terrible slippery slope.

    What makes you say that?

    Hippocratic. There's a lot of stuff in there that no-one listens to anymore. And rightly so.

    Thank God no-one here lives in a democracy.



     
  15. WildBerry

    WildBerry Diabloii.Net Member

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    That's what the Wiki told me. I assume that the form I used would be valid as well, but I might be wrong there.



     
  16. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    One thing inevitable about the OTF... nit-pick heaven. Thank you Dondrei. Perhaps I should say representative system? Does that suit you better, Hmmmm? Good lord the principle is still there, but feel free to continue to nit-pick.

    One of the fundamental principles of the medical profession: do no harm . In my mind assisting someone in their death (even with the best of intentions) is doing harm. End of story.

    Feel free to have your vote if you want to be silly. You have the right to vote even though you would lose in a landslide.

    There's a reason only one state has legal assisted suicide (and even in that case it is pretty limited in scope) - the general populace is against it. I fall into that general populace.
     
  17. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    The fact that you apparently see no problem in voting on such an issue in the first place is quite telling.



     
  18. Star Dust

    Star Dust Diabloii.Net Member

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    End of story as far as the medical profession goes. But you've given no reason why it has to be a medical professional assisting other than "you're naive if you think otherwise."

    Is Kevorkian himself a medical professional?



     
  19. Star Dust

    Star Dust Diabloii.Net Member

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    Lunar is right on that count. We have the freedom to vote on anything we like, even changing the constitution.



     
  20. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    Kevorkian was a doctor. Yes, I'd say that qualified him as a medical professional (keep in mind what he was doing was still illegal and unethical).

    What I am saying, is that there will never be an assisted suicide law passed that doesn't implement supervision by a doctor... or at the very least, a qualified medical professional. If I'm proven wrong on this, then feel free to say "neener neener". I doubt it will ever take place though.

    And as far as a "reason" that it would need to be a medical professional... c'mon... don't you think it would be common sense to realize why that would be? If we are talking about someone that understands the human body... medicine, etc... who else could you conceivably consider? Bill smith, who got his "assisted suicide" certificate through his mail-in correspondence course? That's the "naive" I was referencing (albeit facetiously).
     

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