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Kevorkian released from prison

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by llad12, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. buttershug

    buttershug Diabloii.Net Member

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    So if someone has a "seemed like a good idea at the time" experience, you ignore the unexpected bad results and go with pure theory?

    Electronic manufacturing is at least 50% experience.
    Now that I think of it. I've heard the word "miracle" used more often than "science" used by the top people.

    And with people theory goes even more astray.

    And a guy on the radio who sounds like he has researched places with legalised assisted suicide basically pointed out how it doesn't occur according to theory.



     
  2. TakeMyCrabs

    TakeMyCrabs Diabloii.Net Member

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    Well, if you want to die via opiates... this is what you should use.

    To all those people who claim that enough painkillers would make the pain go away, how do you deal with people who are intolerant to opiates? For example, I knew a person who would rather suffer than take opiates. Opiates give them one of the worst feelings ever. Then what?
     
  3. Star Dust

    Star Dust Diabloii.Net Member

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    You're confused. I think we should legalize assisted suicide because of pure theory; every person should have the right to choose between existence and nonexistence. Practicalities only come into the picture when considering whether we will legalize it and, if so, how we will make it work.

    I haven't been much concerned with the latter in this thread.



     
  4. th5418

    th5418 Banned

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    I'm sure everyone can go to a high building and jump off head first. That's pretty painless.



     
  5. buttershug

    buttershug Diabloii.Net Member

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    oops gotcha.
    But it's generally not good to should all over yourself.

    And actually I"m not just talking about the practicalities but also the actualities.
    As in there would be one or two to fit the catagory but then somehow it's done a dozen times.

    edit
    If you don't survive. You have a 10% chance of surviving from the 6th floor.
    There have been rare cases of people falling from a plane with no parachute and surviving from over 10,000 feet.

    I'm kinda suprised more people don't use stimulants instead of opiates.



     
  6. Johnny

    Johnny Banned

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    Sleeping pills. Pillow. Railroad track.
     
  7. PFSS

    PFSS Diabloii.Net Member

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    Including late stage MS sufferers and people with broken necks?


     
  8. {KOW}Spazed

    {KOW}Spazed Banned

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    Roll off head first, jump off head first. Tomato, tomato.

    That doesn't work so well in text now does it?


    You should stop trying to skirt the question and either provide real support for your stance or concede. You can kill yourself without public funding. The lawsuits alone that would arise from assisted suicide make it not worth it. If you want to die, make a DNR statement and do it yourself.



     
  9. PFSS

    PFSS Diabloii.Net Member

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    It's a shame English keyboards don't have accented letters on them.

    But seriously - those options are not really available to someone who is severely paralysed or no longer has sufficient control over their mental faculties. Well - unless they get someone to help them out of their chair and over the parapet...


     
  10. {KOW}Spazed

    {KOW}Spazed Banned

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    I can type with accents, it isn't that hard. Exposé

    Still, if you don't have the mental faculties to roll yourself up a ramp and off a building what makes you think that the law is going to say you have the ability to sign away your rights? If they are paralyzed beyond communication what do you do then? Just kill them off?

    Again, there is no reason this should be legalized. You can either set it up before while you're healthy or deny assistance later. If you want to die a painless death there are plenty of drugs you can buy over the counter that'll do it. A couple bottles of cough syrup should make you fall into a sleep and never wake up.

    You still aren't providing support, just bringing up very specific cases that are far too insignificant to make law on.



     
  11. TakeMyCrabs

    TakeMyCrabs Diabloii.Net Member

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    How do you suppose we ingest this cough syrup if you're paralyzed from the neck down?

    I wouldn't want to live as a paraplegic. But how would i end my life without assistance?

    Also, you're forgetting the BIG PROBLEM. (Overpopulation).
     
  12. bg1256

    bg1256 Diabloii.Net Member

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    I read this thread until this highly ignorant, stereotypical comment.



     
  13. bagar

    bagar Diabloii.Net Member

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    Jeebus. I dont know how a lot of you are reasoning and I wont get into it.

    Just a few notes when not to try to get drawn into the "perfect suicide debate".

    There are different kinds of pain. Not all are treatable by opiates. Usually four different kinds of pain are discussed even though you can get into detail and evaluate what kind of receptor and what molecules are involved in all cases. Thus there are many subgroups to these main groups. The different kinds are:

    1. Nociceptive pain. Usually the pain you are thinking about. Smash a nail through your hand and you will mostly feel this kind of pain due to certain nerve fibers registering the physcial tissue damage. Morphine usually, but not always, work on this pain. This huge group is subdivided in many different subgroups depending on what you want to study.

    2. Neurological pain. Damage of nerves usually gives this this kind of pain. A classical example is the "phantom pain" in patients with amputated limbs. Morphine wont work.

    3. Psychological pain. A bit hard to give a definition but I would like to think of it like pain "from the inside of the brain and out". I think you can understand what i mean. Morphine wont work except that it may relax the patient enough to not feel pain. Thus Not the first choice due to the addiction and tolerance potential.

    4. Idiopathic pain. Thats right we all need a trash can.

    Then you have additional factors like a possible inflammatory process in the area of the pain. Anxiety's additive effects and much more.

    It's pretty rare to be "allergic" to morphine although there are several side effects which may be what one of the poster's friend is experiencing. If you choose morphine to treat pain of a kind where morphine wont work, surprise, surprise you will get side effects but no positive effects. For example nausea and vomiting may be side effect which is kind of doses dependant, but it's true some people are sensitive and then you'll try to find an antiemeticum worth its price if its necessarily to try morphine. There are alternatives too. Morphine isnt the end all be all of nociceptive pain.

    To Ilad: Thanks for the answer I see what you mean now. I must however disagree about what the cause is of the patient's final breath. I would say that what you so poetically describe, isnt the morphine's effects and side effects and more the human body's way to actually give up and die. I have as well seen enough humans die to know a fair bit of this although in the end it will often be a filosophical question in these severely ill patients excactly what factor that caused their final rest since it is often many organs that fail at the same time..
     
  14. Star Dust

    Star Dust Diabloii.Net Member

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    I agree.



     
  15. Star Dust

    Star Dust Diabloii.Net Member

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    I seriously don't see what the problem is with legalizing this.

    Assisted suicide doesn't need to be publicly funded; who brought up that idea? Just let people commit suicide and let other people help them if asked. It just needs to be thoroughly accounted for. If anyone is known to have caused another to die, they better be able to provide proof that the person really was asking for it, otherwise it's a murder conviction. A couple video tapes and some writing should do it, no problem. I'm sure private businesses that specialize in taking care of these things would be formed.

    The positive result is that we give people the freedom to make their most fundamental decision without or with less fear of carrying that decision out. We have less bodies splattered all over pavement and railroad tracks (I've read about the trauma this causes the people that have to clean up the mess), and less uncertainty about if such and such method works, if it's going to be enough, and/or if one can really do it to oneself.
     
  16. WildBerry

    WildBerry Diabloii.Net Member

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    I was going to refrain this - the thought originally came to me from one of Johnny's somewhat repulsive remarks - but now that you're pushing it too, I'll do it. This what train people look like.

    Our sort of "national political cartoonist", late Kari Suomalainen, had a son who passed away before him, Valtteri Suomalainen, who had time to live a full life. He wrote a book from his experiences as an obducent in the morgue. The book is riddled with black humor.

    Quoting and trying to pedantically translate from Finnish.



     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2007
  17. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    Keep in mind many are arguing very passionately about something which a very small fraction of people would actually utilize.

    One of the larger issues I have with the idea of assisted suicide is that it's very ambiguously defined. I mean, what specific qualifiers do we use? A person that is in end-stage cancer and is in severe pain? How then, do we define "severe pain"? How about a quadrapalegic whom feels they will not have quality of life and wishes to end it all?

    And then there's the slippery slope that does ironically come into this as a feasible counter-argument.... when does an argument get meade for euthenasia (this being non-consentual assisted death. i.e. "mercy killings").

    I hold that the medical profession is about trying to preserve life. Hospice is about providing comfort to those experiencing terminal illness. I believe that we have many other options available to consider (in my very humble opinion) to assisted suicide.

    In the end, I'm certainly willing to agree to disagree.
     
  18. pip boy

    pip boy Diabloii.Net Member

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    Personally i dont think that matters, that its one person or one thousand million.

    But i think people are passionate about it, because maybe they are like me. Im not to scared of death, but ill **** my pants at the thought of a slow painfull death, or losing my mind (or both).

    Not being funny, but isnt that obvios, severe pain in this context is when the patient no longer wishes to live?

    And as to the quadrapalegic question, see below.

    I dont think the slippery slope argument is ever feasible, and each case must be based upon its own merits, not that of others.

    Lets not ban apples, because that might lead people to eat oranges, if that makes any sense.



     
  19. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris Diabloii.Net Member

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    The slippery slope argument is not an apples and oranges argument in this case... because assisted suicide likened to euthenasia (mercy killing) can most definitely be abused. The potential will always be there when people are in charge of death of others.

    And no... the definition is not an obvious one. I mean really, what qualifies as "agonizing pain"? You'll get different answers based on different people you talk to. Some people tolerate a lot... some tolerate very little. While you may think the definition or standard is an obvious one, it isn't.

    Besides, the last time I posted, I requested someone give me a compelling reason for assisted suicide. I've yet to see an answer that compells me. One person responded to me "because someone wants it". That's hardly compelling. Another may state "to offer mercy to someone suffering needlessly". Well, I've already stated that there are reasonable alternatives to pain management, etc. through hospice or other means. I still remain uncompelled.
     
  20. WildBerry

    WildBerry Diabloii.Net Member

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    Thanks. How I felt about it too.



     

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