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Kevorkian released from prison

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by llad12, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. Talga Vasternich

    Talga Vasternich Diabloii.Net Member

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    For the first time, Llad and I completely agree.

    @Johnny - How much does it cost to keep people alive against their will?
    What of the family who has to watch their loved one wither away in body and mind... slowly... with no realistic hope of recovery... with only heavy narcotic drugs keeping pain to a "manageable" level? Would you spare your loved ones, and yourself, the misery of this existance if you had the choice?
     
  2. AeroJonesy

    AeroJonesy Diabloii.Net Member

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    Yes, because while you are still 100% healthy you can make an agreement saying what you are willing to consent to and what you won't.



     
  3. maccool

    maccool Diabloii.Net Member

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  4. buttershug

    buttershug Diabloii.Net Member

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    God forbid your child becomes an all too common suicidal teenager.
    You will change your position if that happens.

    I go with it's not as simple as some people would say.



     
  5. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    I imagine there would have to be laws governing what constituted consent, and who could vouch for the patient's will in the matter or be a witness to such consent, not just:

    "Uh, yeah he said I could kill him if I wanted to."
    "Sounds good, you're free to go!"

    1. A child can't consent to anything.
    2. An appeal to emotion is just a bad argument, no matter how you slice it.

    I would very much not want my child (when he or she reached adulthood and could consent to such a thing) to commit suicide, but it's society's duty to step in and remind me that their right to choose what happens to their body trumps my wishes as a parent.

    Is it okay for the government to torture prisoners day in and day out because "that's what you would want if one of them had hurt your child"? How is that an argument for anything?



     
  6. buttershug

    buttershug Diabloii.Net Member

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    People are more emotional than logical. (on average)
    Even a lot that delude themselves into thinking they have totally objective free will.

    I think it's society's duty to help them better evaluate their choice.



     
  7. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    Did I say I would be objective in such a situation? I said it was society's job to remain objective in situations when an individual can't.
    And if they still want to go through with it?



     
  8. buttershug

    buttershug Diabloii.Net Member

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    True. But is society any more objective?

    I would be sad and want even more that more research be done.



     
  9. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    Yes.

    Otherwise, all kinds of terrible things would be legal. Take my torture example, for instance.



     
  10. krinchild

    krinchild Diabloii.Net Member

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    from his pictures he looks like nice amiable and old. i dont think he will be able to do more harm. would u guys offer to be roommates with him?
     
  11. {KOW}Spazed

    {KOW}Spazed Banned

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    Well his videos never show him forcefully killing someone(as in they don't fight back) and like you said he is old so if he did try to attack me I think I could defend myself. As long as he doesn't get the needle in me I'm fine.

    The drugs he used were only available to doctors, he probably isn't allowed to get those now that he is a convicted felon.



     
  12. Johnny

    Johnny Banned

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    Thier insurance company pays for that.

    Insurance company.

    Insurance company.

    Lots and lots of money out of thier insurances companys profit.


    Been there, done that



     
  13. Ezcabe

    Ezcabe Diabloii.Net Member

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    Just reading Johnny's replies, I gain more and more respect for him. He is really level headed, and does not let pride get into the way of learning.
     
  14. bagar

    bagar Diabloii.Net Member

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    There are several reasons why I think that assisted suicide or eutanacia are bad ideas.

    When some of you say that a person's life is their own. Do you think a severely depressed human being with strong suicidal plans capable of making a decision to die? Wouldn't it be better to try to cure this person of the depression, help them rebuild their confidence and life instead of just letting them kill themselves. In my country a severely depressed person with strong suicidal plas or a failed suicide attempt can be admitted to a psyciatric ward involontarily for help. A psyciatrist who just releases persons that then go on and commit suicide will always be slandered and investigated.

    In your world of eutanacia should all people with severe mental disorders be allowed to kill themselves?

    I work in the medical field and have a particular interest in palliative care. My impression of the medical care in the USA is that in many places the hospital will do anything to try to save a patients life in any circumstances. This approach will always lead to "hard cases" when comatose people may get put in respirators with no acual chance of getting better. In USA you also will have a legal problem in this case since the relatives gets responsible for the future decisions for the patient. This is why it is sometimes better (but often very hard to do) to identificate patients who wont survive and then stop life supporting activities in an early stage instead.

    What i wrote above often is most often the result of acute illness. When talking about palliative care regarding cancer patients, severe respiratory illness or or progressive neurological diseases (example ALS), you must have a different approach. Many of you are talking extreme imaginary cases of being a vegetable for a very long time with constant infuriating pain. Not saying these patients doesn't exist, but for me it's actually harder to work with and see patients with severe dementia living in some ****ty ward for elders screaming at the top of their lungs for most of their waking hours, with most of their cognitive and mental functions at abysmal levels.

    In terminally ill (eg dieing) cancer patients for example you have to respect a dieing persons' wishes for how they want to die. It would also be unethical for me to artificially upheave their lives at this point. What you do is you try to make the last hours or weeks as good and dignified as they can be.

    I will respect if they dont want to eat, i wont "shove a feeding tube" in their esophahus at this time. I will probably not give her fluids intravenously although it is common that relatives ask for since their mother has so dry lips and are thirsty. Then I will instead gently ask them to sit down with their mother. I will give them some moisturising fluid that they can applicate on their mothers lips, significantly releaving the sense of thirst and keeping them closer in her time on earth. If i instead had started stabbing the patient with a needle for the IV fluids i wouldnt have prolonged the life (its been studied). I would have caused her uneccessary distress and pain and increased the chance of a pulmonary edema which isnt a good way to die.

    There are many aspects like this when you treat a dieing patient and not all of them are easy to understand unless you have some understanding of the human body, but i have ranted long enough.

    I can possibly see a few cases where I have been kind of relived that something has happened to a patient that has hastened their deaths because of how severly ill they are, but i have wondered if that really isn't only because i was afraid of not being able to give appropriate care?

    You treat and help the patients as they want. Relatives and innocent bystanders should almost always come in a distant second place regarding the decision making. Just because you cant stand to watch your mother die you can't take out your anxiety by just killing her.

    I would never give assisted suicide, because killing people isn't what i signed up for. There is however a middle way that is used every day that includes palliative measures, not necessarily prolonging but always relieving that one can work with.
     
  15. pip boy

    pip boy Diabloii.Net Member

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    So weve gone from "its to expensive", to "insurance company pays for it", your arguments getting more and more ridiculous.



     
  16. Johnny

    Johnny Banned

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    Dont be such an ***hat.

    Medical treatment thier insuarance pays for, assisted suicide program the tax payers pay for.

    Ok Il just read your next post right now.

    Yes the insurance company can pay for the individual killings but that cost is only the tip of the iceberg just like when the insurance company pays for medical costs they dont have to pay for training the doctors and constructing/maintaining the hospitals.

    Oh wait I can see the next reply again.

    Except assisted suicide cannot be allowed to be a private business. so 99% of all fees will be paid by the tax payers for materials and staff that will go mostly unused waiting for one out of the 2-3 people a year that need thier service. When that happens the insrance company will mayby pay the last 1 %. Assuming insurance companies approve paying for assisted suicide.

    Atleast I make arguments unlike you. The only good arguments you made so far are writen by me in this post.



     
  17. pip boy

    pip boy Diabloii.Net Member

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    And as ive said youve decided this will cost millions, which i cant be arsed to argue as i think you should back that up, also i dont see why the tax payer has to pay for it if its private, but then this is just you constantly presenting your arguements as facts.

    Besides which, your being ridiculous, first of all you decide what needs doing, then you try and find the money for it, not the other way round which is what your doing.

    The main thing to remember here is you could apply all of your arguments to ANY new medical treatment, which is why they are irrelivant.

    Most of your arguments are so far off the mark they arnt even worth considering.



     
  18. Johnny

    Johnny Banned

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    Because you cant leave killing people up tp private business.

    You know what doesnt need doing?

    Assisted suicide.

    What does need doing is find a cure for diseases, find more alternative fuels, Feed the starving, educate people who cant afford to pay for it, provide medical treatment for as many of the countrys population as possible.

    Those things needs doing. And once we find money to do all those plus 100+ other important things that I didnt list. Then we could consider spending money so people can be killed early.

    New medical treatment? so all of a sudden suicide is some fantastic new miracle drug or what?

    Its not even a medical treatment nor is it new. Its just expensive and dangerous.

    So sod off and dont reply at all then.



     
  19. Dondrei

    Dondrei Diabloii.Net Member

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    Yeah, I saw it on the news today.

    I really don't follow you, are you saying you only oppose it when there is doubt as to the patient's wishes? I agree, to an extent.

    What makes you think the insurance company wouldn't cover the costs of assisted suicide? Seems like a good deal for them.

    :thumbsup:

    What about severely happy or manic human beings? Maybe they're making an irrational decision to keep living.

    Seems a lot better than the alternative.



     
  20. Johnny

    Johnny Banned

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    They probably will. But what they cover will only be a fraction of the total cost of the program you would be required to set up to make assisted suicide a reality.



     

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