Justification for cheating?

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Mr Evil

Diabloii.Net Member
Justification for cheating?

Had an interesting conversation with a maphack user today. Here is a transcript. Names changed obviously:

MH-user: ****, 4 sock archon and i missed it
(Said after I had picked up a grey Archon Plate that had just dropped)
Me: maphack user
MH-user: u complaining?
MH-user: MH is how we got here
PlayerA: mh still legal?
MH-user: MH isn't 'legal' but neither is pickit (those assholes suck) or those bots or dupers
MH-user: blizz complains about maphack but don't seem to care about the real cheaters
Me: maphack is 'real' cheating
MH-user: lol
MH-user: yeah...how so?
MH-user: it shows you the map
MH-user: saves a little time
Me: exactly
MH-user: you can see the whole map, just gotta explore
MH-user: but you cant dupe things naturally
PlayerB: They won't do anything if you use it anyway, they are to lazy and kow its fun with it
Me: it lets you mf and exp far faster than you should be able to
MH-user: i know guys that memorized patterns
MH-user: so they MF just as fast
MH-user: which is worse, MH or pickit?
PlayerB: Prob pickit
MH-user: PROB????
MH-user: YOU NUTS? that's a cheat, grabbing uniques before they hit the ground
Me: both are lame
MH-user: my MH dont hurt anyone
MH-user: it helps more
PlayerB: And they dont do anything about them anyways
MH-user: helps runs like this
MH-user: they ban MH users
(n.b. I was slightly confused by that statement, coming from a confessed maphack user)
PlayerB: Lol
PlayerB: No they dont
MH-user: they do...but there are 10M out there, and they hit like 1k at a time
PlayerB: Rofl
MH-user: its like the music industry hitting music d/lers
PlayerB: My friend uses it since day 1 of when it came out and hasnt got cought
(end of run, everyone leaves just as it was getting interesting)

Discuss.
 

Dredd

D3 Off Topic Moderator
Heh, I don't know if I want to get into this discussion or not. Most MH threads end up quickly degenerating into ten pages of flaming.

The whole idea that MH is somehow less subversive than other cheats is a misnomer. In spite of how Maphackers justify their reasons for using it, in the end they are still giving themselves an unfair advantage over those who choose to play fair. Whether or not it has a direct effect on my playing experience is beside the point.

That's the only thing I have to say.

SuggestiveName said:
*flings dung at maphack thread*
*douses maphack thread with gasoline, tosses a lit match and runs*
 

lazyassdre

Diabloii.Net Member
I hate people who say that MH doesn't affect other people.
Consider this, the person who uses MH to Meph, and the person who doesn't use it. The person with the MH finds the stairs (well they don't find it at all, they just see it on their minimap) a helluva lot faster, commence to killing Meph, get "leet itams" and continue on to their next run. The MH user could go through 2-3 runs before the non MH user finishes his first. Sure it just "saves time" but, since both people don't have MH, the MH user has an unfair advantage.
 

Lord Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
So does alot of other things...all the forums, little proggies etc. that helps calculate, help set up perfect builds, help you get DC much easier, etc. etc. yet they are all legal. Heck Ebay is legal, yet it gives an unfair advantage because one man can just buy what the other has spent hundreds of hours working on. (and don't tell me one guy couldn't get maphack, everyone could get maphack)

I agree with the guy up there, for a "cheat" its a very benign one...if you tell me that you think seeing the map is as bad as the rune duping and pindlebot, then it isn't the maphack user above thats the moron.

It actually had alot of features which were visual enhancements which should have been just directly added to the game by blizzard instead of just lazy carpet banning.
 

Lord Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
lazyassdre said:
I hate people who say that MH doesn't affect other people.
Consider this, the person who uses MH to Meph, and the person who doesn't use it. The person with the MH finds the stairs (well they don't find it at all, they just see it on their minimap) a helluva lot faster, commence to killing Meph, get "leet itams" and continue on to their next run. The MH user could go through 2-3 runs before the non MH user finishes his first. Sure it just "saves time" but, since both people don't have MH, the MH user has an unfair advantage.
Uhm, yeah, so does a sorceress that can jump to mephisto 10 times faster than any other build that can't afford enigma or doesn't have the mana for teleporting with enigma.
 

warlock_666

Diabloii.Net Member
he has a very good point about the other features though. its VERY useful to be able to see high runes in Gold colour or charms in a different colour and so on. I dont agree with the full map (which is basically the main point of MH) but these colour features are useful.

Of course it would only be fair if eveyone D2 player had them otherwise they have an advantage from visually picking out runes in a crowded drop zone.
 

jkins

Diabloii.Net Member
Lord Chaos said:
Uhm, yeah, so does a sorceress that can jump to mephisto 10 times faster than any other build that can't afford enigma or doesn't have the mana for teleporting with enigma.
No. A sorc with teleport and lots of mana does not have an 'unfair' advantage over characters without teleport (or any other character with a teleport ammy or an enigma) . This is how the game was intended/designed/tested.

A char with MH has an 'unfair' advantage because they have introduced a foreign element into the game.

But anyways, we know all this...

/jkins
 

Lord Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
jkins said:
No. A sorc with teleport and lots of mana does not have an 'unfair' advantage over characters without teleport (or any other character with a teleport ammy or an enigma) . This is how the game was intended/designed/tested.

A char with MH has an 'unfair' advantage because they have introduced a foreign element into the game.

But anyways, we know all this...

/jkins
oh please, don't give me that wishy-washy "foreign elements"...heck this forum is a foreign element that gives those who do not know about it an advantage, the same with DC forums, calculaters, etc.
 

Sein Schatten

Diabloii.Net Member
lord chaos has a point there. as far as i know all those tables and infos from the mpq files is an unfair advantage over those who arent able to get those infos.
 

Mr Evil

Diabloii.Net Member
Lord Chaos said:
oh please, don't give me that wishy-washy "foreign elements"...heck this forum is a foreign element that gives those who do not know about it an advantage, the same with DC forums, calculaters, etc.
The thing is that maphack interacts directly with the game in a way that is explicitly contrary to the bnet ToS. The only way the game is supposed to be interacted with is via your eyes, ears and hands. Likening it to the advantage given by forums or calculators is like comparing it to those who have faster reaction times, or who are more intelligent as having an unfair advantage.
 

CookiesnCream

Diabloii.Net Member
Mr Evil said:
The thing is that maphack interacts directly with the game in a way that is explicitly contrary to the bnet ToS. The only way the game is supposed to be interacted with is via your eyes, ears and hands. Likening it to the advantage given by forums or calculators is like comparing it to those who have faster reaction times, or who are more intelligent as having an unfair advantage.
I agree, maphack does give other players an unfair advantage over others. Especially when they can see your gear. It gives them an unfair advantage in PvP. It's not as worse as pickit or duping. But pickit can be used in conjunction with maphack. They're able to use pickit in places you're normally not able to. Such as grabbing through walls. That's how someone scammed me of my item.
 

Lord Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
Mr Evil said:
The thing is that maphack interacts directly with the game in a way that is explicitly contrary to the bnet ToS. The only way the game is supposed to be interacted with is via your eyes, ears and hands. Likening it to the advantage given by forums or calculators is like comparing it to those who have faster reaction times, or who are more intelligent as having an unfair advantage.
Getting the info out of the game is also directly interacting with it. (the game files)...heck, even the map is no more unfair than those who gets the info on how to "skip" things in the game...but heck I'd be happy with the maphack features without the map. (although it is annoying as a melee character to have to run around for an hour trying to find the way, while a sorceress that can not only kill faster, but can get ahead of you 100 times faster).
 

Lord Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
CookiesnCream said:
I agree, maphack does give other players an unfair advantage over others. Especially when they can see your gear. It gives them an unfair advantage in PvP. It's not as worse as pickit or duping. But pickit can be used in conjunction with maphack. They're able to use pickit in places you're normally not able to. Such as grabbing through walls. That's how someone scammed me of my item.
What the hell?, unless you got a new version after I took a break that did this, then maphack didn't show the equipment of other players. And how on earth would maphack allow you to grab through walls?
 

SuggestiveName

Diabloii.Net Member
Lord Chaos said:
What the hell?, unless you got a new version after I took a break that did this, then maphack didn't show the equipment of other players. And how on earth would maphack allow you to grab through walls?
Later version of maphack did indeed show others equipment. Sort of made trading easier, also lead to stupid "n00b uses .09 gaze rofl lol n00b real players use ith."
 

Lord Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
Well, see such a feature I would be against, which is why I'd rather see Maphack taken under the wings of someone who could hold it to legit "possible in the game" things, and not force it and other utils to become popular with even worse and worse features.

See, seeing other opponents items is not possible within the game. Seeing the map, picking up items and seeing immunities are all things possible within the game, so these features does not break the game, unlike spying proggies, duping, bots, etc.
 

SuggestiveName

Diabloii.Net Member
Lord Chaos said:
Well, see such a feature I would be against, which is why I'd rather see Maphack taken under the wings of someone who could hold it to legit "possible in the game" things, and not force it and other utils to become popular with even worse and worse features.

See, seeing other opponents items is not possible within the game. Seeing the map, picking up items and seeing immunities are all things possible within the game, so these features does not break the game, unlike spying proggies, duping, bots, etc.
That is an amusing proposition, but I can't imagine anyone wants to hack the game "just a little bit." Yeah there's Maphack, but I have LEGIT maphack. :rolleyes:

That said maphack has always done tons of extra stuff: super light radius, colored runes and charms, show number of sockets, show enemy location, show enemy immunitys on map, prevent drophack, leave the game at low health, show others equipment, display its as "stupid ith," and show the map.

Only one of those "features" is "possible in game." If you're going to cheat, dont get all righteous, just freaking cheat.
 

Lord Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
SuggestiveName said:
That is an amusing proposition, but I can't imagine anyone wants to hack the game "just a little bit." Yeah there's Maphack, but I have LEGIT maphack. :rolleyes:

That said maphack has always done tons of extra stuff: super light radius, colored runes and charms, show number of sockets, show enemy location, show enemy immunitys on map, prevent drophack, leave the game at low health, show others equipment, display its as "stupid ith," and show the map.

Only one of those "features" is "possible in game." If you're going to cheat, dont get all rightous, just freaking cheat.
Most of what you are showing are VISUAL aids, thats all...all those things are fully possible within the game or are you telling me that you cannot read sockets when you pick it up?

Leave the game at low health and show other equipments must have been really recent additions to maphack, because they were not around when I had it...and they are not visual aids, they are visual spying which is not possible within the game no matter what you do.

This has nothing to do with rightous or whatever else labels you wish to give it, its common sense...heck even Ultima Online had the sense to add UOAssist as a legit program addition to their game (and banned all others) simply to give an aid to players and at the same time keep the features under control so nothing destructive was added.
 

CookiesnCream

Diabloii.Net Member
Lord Chaos said:
What the hell?, unless you got a new version after I took a break that did this, then maphack didn't show the equipment of other players. And how on earth would maphack allow you to grab through walls?
I don't use maphack, but I do know the newer versions allow you to see other people's items. And I don't know if this is true or not, but someone did mention that maphack allows you to have some kind of infrared vision that'll allow you to grab through walls using the new version of pickit. Now pickit is so fast it grabs the items before it even hits the floor. Someone scammed me using pickit.
 
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