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Just to let you know...

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Vorbiss, Jan 30, 2004.

  1. Vorbiss

    Vorbiss IncGamers Member

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    Just to let you know...

    The guy that tryed to trade me the Mang Song's Lessons from the item warehouse is corax, I asked him via mail where did he got it, hoping for him to make mistake, and I was right in my expectations-he said it was from Oblivion Knight at the WSK, clear lie, since the ilvl of the staff is 99. After this he apparently saw the thread where he was caught cheating, and he apologised for knowingly trying to sell me created item.
    I accept the apologies, because there was no harm made yet, and it was great that he had the bravery to tell the truth. :thumbsup: He said that he'll change too. Nonetheless I won't ever trade with him again.
    Anyhow, if you have made some deals with him, check your items!
     
  2. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo IncGamers Member

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    Oh dear... :scratch:

    Vorbiss, why did you send me a PM (to which I just replied) and then bring the dirty laundry out in the wind? By starting two threads you are making this a very public matter.

    Edit: Vorbiss & I are talking via PM right now...

    Anyone who thinks they have been victimized by this member, please PM me. Don't turn turn this into a lynching thread...
     
  3. ricrestoni

    ricrestoni IncGamers Member

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    Hmmm... grab a extra-salty burger bomb...
     
  4. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    I think so long as it's a simple stating of facts creating threads like this is clearly in order. I see no compelling reason to keep others in the dark about things like that.

    The guy who tried to feed me duped items wasn't banned as far as I know, so if I hadn't given his name others might have fallen into the same trap. I don't see why we should help them by keeping these things secret.

    Especially in a clear case like this, where someone has been so obvious about it that there can be no doubt.
     
  5. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo IncGamers Member

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    Were it that simple. As my recent short-term serves me:

    1) baalistik was simply stating facts on his trade with Deaths_Dawning

    This turned out to be a really big mess, implicating many innocent folks, including D_D - spanning three D2 forums - after the dust settled, no one was guilty of anything, but reputations were damaged.

    2) Starlight_Wizard was simply stating facts on the series of trades with Elvish_Legion

    Yup, E_L was guilty & has served his temp ban. (He's back now and has started to rebuild his reputation.) But in the process, two over-zealous SPF members were banned.

    The problem is that simply stating facts isn't what it seems to be. Facts are normally partial information. They may be true from one perspective, but when put into a bigger scope they are sometimes mitigated, or even proven to be false.

    In this case, maybe it is an easy call, but when do the issues become gray, and then totally murky. I'm not sure.

    So what do we do about this?

    The concept of a "SPF trade blacklist" has been hashed over a couple of times since I've been around the SPF. Each time it seemed to go away. Is it time for this discussion again?
     
  6. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    I think it is as simple as that because the other guy claimed to have found the item himself.

    Everybody knew that D_D's shield had come from repusz so it clearly wasn't selffound/selfduped by D_D. The next step would have been to ask Repusz where he had gotten the shield and follow that line until the leads dry up or somebody says "yeah, I found it". Bhaalistik jumped the gun here because he was angry at that time and probably didn't think things through. D_D's reputation didn't help there, either.

    I know for sure that I would never trade with somebody who once knowingly handed out duped items. It doesn't take a genius to realise that people don't want that so I don't have much tolerance for "oh, I didn't know you guys didn't want duped runes for your selffound items. cut me some slack".
     
  7. mn4nu

    mn4nu IncGamers Member

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    I will never understand why someone would knowingly trade duped items. Hell, if you download an item, dupe it, and try to trade it for something else, why not just dupe or create the item you want in return? I just don’t get this. Why involve others?

    :scratch:

    mn4nu
     
  8. Vex_Nemox

    Vex_Nemox IncGamers Member

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    True gospel. Amen.
     
  9. Liter Soul

    Liter Soul IncGamers Member

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    I agree with Nightfish here. As far as I'm concerned people can dupe all they want, but as soon as they start trading said dupes for items people have found, it becomes a theft. Would you accept money that was counterfeit and treat it as real money? Of course not. When someone trades items that aren't legit for legit items, they're making a mockery of that persons time. It takes time to get a good character, godd MF gear, and do run after run to find the items you want. To trade an item that you spent 30 seconds making for one that has been countless hours in the making is a form of theft, and I think everyone who could possibly do business with such people should be warned.
     
  10. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    I can't really imagine why they do it either, but that is really besides the point here, I think. Fact is that these things happen and they happen often enough to be a real issue.
     
  11. Starving Poet

    Starving Poet Member

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    I think the biggest problem on both the the guilty AND the zealot has to do with the total anonymity of forum based trading. If a Duper wants they can just change forum names, while the Zealot can take out all his pent up frustration from any unknown number if inconequential sources and use it to flame and troll like a pro.

    Blacklists would be totally ineffective, all it takes is honesty and trust and most importantly things need to be taken in a) moderation and b) stride. This is first and foremost a game. Once you start personalizing something that has happened within the context of said game you start to ruin it for others.

    ("you" is, of course, being used in the impersonal as would the word "one". :))
     
  12. NSXdreamer

    NSXdreamer IncGamers Member

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    Okay, nothing related, but why does trading dupes deserve a ban? They do deserve some sort of punishment, but a ban from forum is just totally unrealted to trading . If you were to do things wrong in school, and they take your car away from you, now that dosen't sounds too appealing does it. Really looks like abuse fo power.
     
  13. Kardiophylax

    Kardiophylax IncGamers Member

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    Well, I think ban is suggested simply because their is no blacklist right now. If there were a blacklist or something like a BBB (the business bureau that consumers can check to see if a company has complaints against it), then people would know that the individual they are trading with could have dupes as they have duped before.

    Of course there is no way to stop them from signing on with a new username. I don't think any solution really eradicates the problem.
     
  14. NSXdreamer

    NSXdreamer IncGamers Member

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    Yeah there is no way to do a black list, same goes for banning. :( However maybe a white list may work (where people get referral of some sort via good trading)
     
  15. Kardiophylax

    Kardiophylax IncGamers Member

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    Hmm, like positive feedback on EBAY, not a bad idea. The problem is the implementation. I mean if the board doesn't support that sort of rating in a user's profile, then someone needs to keep a thread constantly updated. I mean if people just say someone is a good trader is a new thread, then that thread will eventually disappear. If one thread is created and anyone can update it, it would get so long that no one could go through it all before deciding to trade with someone.

    I'm sure there must be a way, just not one I can think of.
     
  16. NSXdreamer

    NSXdreamer IncGamers Member

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    Maybe a pinned read only thread, people would PM their vote (with reason) to mod, and he can update the list. Of course that's a lot more work for mod, not sure if he'll like it or not. :p
     
  17. Artemis

    Artemis IncGamers Member

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    I think a rating feedback like Ebay's would work fantastic. It's eliminated most problems there, and would do the same here. Banning is unrealistic and unfair. Let people decide for themselves if they want to do business with said person.

    As for Vorbiss' trade, he was offering a lot for that item-- it's not surprising someone tried to take advantage. However, if someone is guilty of cheating, they will cheat again; it's part of their character.
     
  18. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    and then it takes the dupers to creating a second account, PMing the mod about the dupers first account, deleting the second account, and having the duper with a good feedback. or get a friend who also dupes to say they traded. the system woudl be an imrpovement, but not flawless.
    black lists woudl be much better, less hassle, and more reliable. youd have to post a complaint, the 2 people invoved woudd have to sort it out with AE, the duper getting put on a blacklist.
     
  19. Gohanman

    Gohanman IncGamers Member

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    Anwsers to a couple questions that came up:

    1. Why do we ban people who trade dupes?

    In some sense, we don't. We ban people for trying to pass dupes off as legit items. If people want to trade their uber h4x0red items, I have no problem with that. But they should be upfront about it. The lying, misleading, etc. in *pretending* to have legit items is really the probelm. That's why people get banned for it (IMO).

    2. Why do people dupe items then trade them? They could just dupe any item that they want...

    To be cool. To gain a reputation for having a bunch of l33t items. To have a bigger internet pensu.
     
  20. PapaBearNZ

    PapaBearNZ IncGamers Member

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    Can I clarify something here? Please define "DUPE".

    Is it an item that someone has found and then just copied to create 1+n identical items and then traded the surplus?

    Or is it a h4xx0red item that someone has tried to pass off as legit?

    Personally I prefer to use items that I've found myself. While I have accepted donations in the recent past (and even been involved in one giveaway thread) I still prefer to play as untwinked as possible and enjoy the thrill of finding the nice or godly items myself.

    If I have an item that someone else needs and I don't I will quite happily give it away (and have done so in the past).

    PapaBear
     

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