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Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by Jednowlosy, May 5, 2008.

  1. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    I've planned a trapper/kicker for a bit of time, and it differs from the one listed in sticky here a bit: I prefer to maximize her killing speed instead of wasting time for other things. So here's my build:

    Stat distribution
    STR: aim for 156 with eni to be able to carry monarch;
    DEX: a pain: 255 for max block with spirit. But without max block, it feels really bad against ubers.
    VIT: will suffer with such stat-hungry build. You need a lot of trap lifer GCs to reach 3000+ life. I fear you have to get a full pack of 40lifers in order to do so :/ But don't forget that trapsin does well even with 1000 life, since she virtually never gets hit, by anything, and for ubers, life tap counters them totally. So in fact you are immortal with your 3000 HP anyway.

    Skill distribution:
    Fireblast: 20
    LS: 20
    DS: 20
    Charged bolt S: 20
    DTalon: as much as needed to reach 24 with gear
    Mindblast: 1
    Cloak: 1
    Fade: 1
    Prerequisites + Shock Web: Rest.

    I do not waste points for shadow warrior/master and weapon block: shadows are useless and with such great crowd control you need minimum skill to be completely invulnerable everywhere. Since it's a trapper with max block, she's even safer. Shadows are useless for this build. I haven't even needed them for both of my pure trappers(both at levels 92-93). They simply never die, and with CoS/MB so does your merc. So why to waste points?

    Why do I max fireblast instead of synergy? Well, I kinda like FB. It's a solid skill, maxing at 7k fire damage for pure trappers, with decent cast speed (I think hoto in scourge would improve it further, wouldn't it? Since it has -10 attspd compared to flail's 10. Not sure about it.) Against light immune creatures, it's much faster than kicking or waiting for death sentry to destroy them. I prefer it maxed; it improves DS a bit, too. The extra 500 LS damage I lose from not maxing shock web doesn't matter that much, traps kill almost instantly anyway.

    Stuff

    Now here's the problem. If you want to be successful uber-killer, you need lots of CB, draculs and resis. But remember that you'll never kick anything beside ubers, so you need the trapper gear more! How to maintain killing speed and not to get pwned by uber mephisto's conviction?

    Well, not that easy. I face resistance shortage problems in my build. i have a few options, but in fact they quite suck ;)) Oh well. Here's what I planned so far:

    Helmet - the biggest problem. Harlequin's crest fills in naturally, as it's a great skill/mana/hp booster; To feel comfortable with traps, you need 1000+ mana, otherwise you'll have to drink a potion from time to time. Shako adds a lot; not only by improving the manapool, but also by increasing your bo level. But, shako has no +resis, and a simple um does not fix it;
    You can try to get one of those ultra-rare trap coronets with life, mana and resis, but it's extremely hard to do, and shako will always be better hp/mana wise.
    Crown of ages works nicely, boosting your DR together with resis by a considerable ammount and has two slots for extra +30% resis, but it's a real pain in the butt to get. Furthermore, its absurd strength requirement forces you to get one of those ridiculously overpriced [email protected]/-15 req jewels, or waste extra 20 points in strength. And it has only +1 to skills, no mana boost and no life boost, not to mention how expensive a 2sox/15dr/30resis CoA is.

    Amu - maras all the way, huge [email protected] and passive boost to HP by increasing BO level is priceless. +5 stats helps too, since trap/kick hybrid is painful to get.

    Armor - ENIGMA! If you want to kill stuff fast, you MUST use it. Because the mercenary is so lousy that he constantly gets lost somewhere, and without infinity's aura, your traps won't be even half as effective as normally. So in fact you need the teleport to maintain killing speed. Enigma is a great armor too; The only BAD thing is lack of resis.

    Weapon - HoTo 99% of the time, last wish when uberkicking, I don't need to say CTA on switch, do I?
    Shield - double spirit. While poor on block rate, it gives you things both trapper and kicker mode loves.
    Gloves - draculs. Essential for uber killing. While trapper doesn't benefit from lifetap, she still does from +str and +life after kill modes.
    Belt - Arach, obviously. Trappers love arachs.
    Rings - raven and soj. Why no resis rings? Oh well, while they would certainly help, soj is like 250 mana, and you NEED mana, not to mention skills, and +20Dex/CBF is obligatory too. Trap/Kick hybrid isn't a caster; almost everything is IAS based. That's why you NEED CBF.
    Boots - Upped gore riders are good, but with Last Wish, you already have excellent CB. Too bad you can't use crafted boots since you really need myrmidon greaves for kick damage, and normal myrmidons have ridiculous str requirement. So, yes, you should use gores.. unless you find wonderboots (rare myrmidons with tri res and lots of strength + other useful mods). But I don't think you will :)



    so.. What's the problem? Well, you reach 255% all res with hoto and umed shako on fade, but with last wish, it's just 215%. It means -10 all under uber meph's aura. You could use CoH, but it means 50 vit less (!) and no teleport - bad choice. Umed kiras also seems fine, but you lose +2 all, or even +1 all from CoA, meaning you have to waste more points on DTalon to make it reach 24th level. Less damage, less killing speed, less mana, less life. Annoying.

    That's the build so far. If you got clues how to fix the resistance problem, I'd be grateful. Tested it a couple of times here and there, mostly on PlugY, and while the ubers there are weaker, it was pretty easy. It was comfortable once you could reach like 50% light res under mephisto's aura. Lower scores were pretty demanding - I could barely survive with 0%, constantly keeping my life around 10-20% due to lifetap, and should it be the real bnet uber event, I'd die because of his minions.

    What I like about this build is that it's essentially a trapper with all her benefits, but also able to do ubers. And I like such chars. She's faster and more fun to play than a perfect hammerdin, which I also have. She can't do ubers as good as hammerdin with 1pt smite, but she still does it pretty well. A pretty much perfect char, but those damn resistances.. aww.
     
  2. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    Why fireblast if you are going for a kicksin hybrid, kicks can deal with light immunes you would get faster killing speed by using 80 skill points worth of skills/synergies to have a decent light sentry.
    Also I think a jah'd stormlash kick/trapper would be faster than a hoto user. and eww @ fade + hoto, your trap speed is slow. and eww at spirit maxblock, no fbr and waste of dex.

    Also you dont have any source of cb% besides gores so your kicks are really weak compared to how they could be.

    I played a kick/trapper a long time ago on east, this was setup I used:

    jah'd stormlash/ eld'd stormshield (maxblock)
    jah'd azurewrath/ spirit shield (+3 skills for traps, 65 fcr spiritside, azure kills pi/light immune very fast because they are all undead pretty much)
    cta in inv (takes a second to buff, carry cta in inv and have much more flexibility with azure/stormlash)

    ber'd guillaumes
    arach
    dracs
    myrmidon gores
    fcr/stat/manaleech ring
    ravenfrost
    maras (rare amulet would be better but this worked out fine for the build)

    inv uses res/hp charms to 75 res all (BoS up all the time, even though I can fade with 8/3 kicks still) gcs all trap.


    This build was hella fast in pvm.
    Stormlash static = everything on screen is at 50% health after you kick one enemy
    high cb% = single enemies die fast to kicks
    fully synergized LS = decent damage
    death sentry = cleans up the mess after static softens everything up
    azure/stormlash switching = no immunity problems
    stormshield = easy block when you need it meaning more hp, you dont need block vs most of pvm anyway, but it would help tanking since I would kick stormlash side.

    You really dont need slvl 24 dtalon, if anything it'll be just kicking air longer after enemies already die, 3 or 4 kick bursts work fine, cb% and procs is what does the damage anyway.

    infinity merc is great if you want speed over everything else.



    Your setup isnt that bad, it'll get your through the game, but I think this one is faster if you really want to go for killing speed on kick/trapper. Try out guillaumes if you haven't yet, cb% is the way to speed up how fast you kill stuff with kicks, save the skill points from dtalon and fireblast for a stronger LS.
     
  3. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    Kicks deal pitiful damage compared to fully syngergized FB. Tested.

    Why should you bother kicking ordinary monsters if they die outright from traps or FB..

    Fade is for meph only. Forgot to mention I use BoS all the time.

    I thought kicking is uninterruptable so block animation doesn't matter anyway. And you never get hit when laying traps, so block is uber only.

    I mentioned last wish - 70% CB is weak? :D

    Thanks for the tip man, I'm absolutely certain traps are the way to go in this game for assassins, no need for kicking ANYTHING beside ubers because LS+fireblast+Death sentry kills everything instantly you set them on the floor, kicking is pathetic compared to that. Kicking is uber only imho, beside that it's an ordinary trapper.

    I've played lots of trappers. No need to improve what's already perfect. The only point in kicking is to let her do ubers. I like one-man-army chars: those who can do everything. That's why I include kicking.


     
  4. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    meh, I found kicks to be very effective and fast at dropping monsters with jah'd stormlash, I would pick that over lwpb for sure. fireblast is cool but why not just go for a full fb/ls trapper if you want high fb damage, why even bother with kicks just less skill points to go around into your traps/fb.
     
  5. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    because, as I stated twice already, I want to do ubers with her too :D and you can't do ubers with traps.. well, you can't kill mephisto, to be exact. Killing lilith isn't very easy too (Or rather, extremely hard, you need lower resist wand to do it..). Uber diablo, uber baal, uber duriel and uber izual are wimps that die fast to traps, but diablo summons annoying minions which are a pain without kicks, since they are immune to everything and can't be affected by conviction since their resistances are too high.

    The point of LW is simple: insane CB and great life tap chance. You need it to survive the ubers. Badly. ;)
     
  6. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    Flails have the same speed as scourges. At least take your time to check these things when you're writing something like this.

    There is never going to be much difference between all variants of (kick/)trappers since Death Sentry is the great equalizer here.

    Calling kicking pathetic in ordinary gameplay is just uninformed. Static is a great thing to have.
     
  7. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    "uninformed" ? come on man, I played both, I have eyes, I can see which one is faster :-X

    Uhh, right, totally messed up things with flail/scourge att speed.
     
  8. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    The problem is not the preference, but the way it's expressed. How much faster is your FB/LS/DS trapper over a normal kick trapper? 2 times, 3 times, 10 times? No, I didn't think so as long as both are using DS. Calling kicks pathetic is definitely uninformed.

    I would also recheck your max block calculations. A level 80 sin requires 271 dex with a Monarch for max block.



     
  9. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    It's not only about speed, it's also about comfort. It's much more comfortable to put long lasting DS mixed with extremely powerful LS than to put some DS with low charges and go kicking. a burst from fully synergized 5 LS traps kill as fast as DS with a few corpses, maybe even faster because they need no corpse for activation, and you get the first corpse much faster/easier/more comfortable with LS rather than kicks. If you don't believe, check yourself. Going by PlugY and character editor with a few imported items, you can make any char you want, and it won't be far-fetched. It's exactly the same on bnet. The only difference is the uber level.

    Of course I am not a theorist, I've made a couple 90+ trapsins on bnet, coupled with other chars, I'm sure I know what I'm talking about when it comes to traps and their killing speed. Trapsins are close to javazones when it comes to killing speed, but they offer more crowd control and "comfort". They never get hit, and they never lose mercs. They have powerful fire element and physical (ds). I'd put them extremely high going by power ratings. Yes, I'm a powergamer, if you haven't noticed yet :D Doing it the best way possible is the way of my playing.

    Therefore, I will call things pathetic if I feel they seem so. If I hurt someone by calling his favorite build slow or pathetic, it's not my fault; such person should re-think his attitude towards the game. Since it's just a game.



    When it comes to block calculations, you may be right, because I used only the "lying char screen" to calculate it.. well, just put my points to dex until it showed 75% chance to block on lcs. It was exactly at 255 DEX at level 99 with spirit monarch. If it's wrong, please tell me. Perhaps I should check the block calculators instead of relying on LCS, indeed.
     
  10. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    Why are you comparing LS with kicks? Regular kick/trappers can't use LS? You should be comparing FB with kicks, but with its long arch one can hardly argue that FB is really that much more comfortable than walking up to a character and kicking it. I can imagine that trying to go max block with a spirit feels uncomfortable when going melee, but that's a deficiency of your build and not one of a regular kick/trapper.

    Not when such comments are based on faulty reasoning like you showed above... Exaggerated really do no good in build-guides.

    The LCS shows the correct blocking percentage, but since you have seemed to use a char editor who knows what might have gone wrong. The formula for max block is dex = 150*clvl/(%block) + 15 (rounded up) so for a level 99 sin with a spirit monarch it is 150*99/47 + 15 = 331 dex.



     
  11. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    Question.. if you are so set on using a ls/fb build with fb for a source of damage.. why would you sink so many points in dtalon? why not get a stronger ls/fb aka a faster build and keep dtalon base level 1 or at most slvl 17, you don't need dtalon to be a high level. Also I would argue that dtalon is very very fast at bringing monsters down, as that was my experience with using it, also its a really effective way to apply static% to everything on the screen which softens enemies up making ds kill groups a lot faster.

    And yes you are wrong on the block%, you messed something up because character screen shows true block but you would need 331 dex with spirit at level 99.

    Since youre testing things out in sp, why not try out a jah'd stormlash/ guillaumes setup and see if you like it for kicking any more than what youre using now.



     
  12. aishilee

    aishilee IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    hmm. a kicker/trap sin that only recommend kicking ubers. hmm.
     
  13. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    I tried various builds, including ww/trap, talon/trap, pure kicker with just DS to help, phoenix kicker, and many others, and I wasn't really pleased, it's not bad, but not for a power hungry maniac like me. :azn: ps. I apply points manually in the game, so I'm pretty much confused now, since i'm positive that it shows max block at 255 dex, I'll get a screenie for you guys

    If it's really wrong than perhaps my hammer with spirit sacred targe and level 38 HS (or so) needs more than 165 DEX at lvl 99 to get 75% block, too.

    Stephan, you may like many builds, but instead of trying to prove I'm wrong, you should simply use the tools I mention and see for yourself, I am quite certain I know what I'm talking about: for PvM, traps along with FB are the fastest and most comfortable, and kicking - compared to it - it slow and risky (oblivions, for instance. Yep, you can mindblast them, and I usually do anyway, so they can't IM my merc, but just for example, they are another uncomfortable factor when comparing kicking to fireblasting.) If you want I can send you the tools and all the items in this game for testing purposes. :)

    And yes, It's a trapper with a possibility to kick, not a real kicker/trapper hybrid, think about it as a hammerdin with 1 point in smite and draculs/LoH/CoH in his stash so he can do ubers alone with ease.
     
  14. mephiztophelez

    mephiztophelez IncGamers Member

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  15. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    And it's not supposed to be either a guide, or a patch. I wanted you guys to comment and resolve the resis problem. Perhaps you are right guys that I don't need lvl24 DT to uber successfully. Whee, more testing :rolleyes:

    I know no one is stupid enough to destroy a flawless pvm monster by implementing kicks just to do uber runs with her.. excluding me ofc :D

    [​IMG]

    Uhh.. so, does the LCS lie again? :)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  16. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    Now I'm not even sure if you really even played a kick/trapper before... why would you need to kick OKs when they are not LI? And then for LI/CI bosses there is always still Blade Fury and CE. You really don't display much of your self-claimed knowledge here. :tongue:

    Again, calling kicks pathetic is simply unwarranted and your reasoning is simply faulty.

    The LCS seems to be wrong in your screenshot, but since we cannot see all of your gear and it's a hacked character who knows what is really wrong. Formulas to calculate block are available, so use them.



     
  17. aishilee

    aishilee IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    apart from the 1 skillpoint why do you guys prefer ARch Belt for trapper/Kicker ?
    i believe Trap laying have nothing to do with FCR.

    hmm i would prefer a Vendungo's with Vit FHR DR
    or Tgods for LightResist Str Vit
    or even String of ears for DR and LL

    I would also Prefer :
    Stormlash over HOTO
    Guiliem Face over Shako

    and also would kicking get interrupted by blocking ?
     
  18. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    fcr is vital to all assassins. Even having as much as 20fcr or 27fcr bp helps heaps, and should be considered the bare minimum for pvm imo. (pvp builds use 65 or 102 fcr, with 174 builds possible, but thats different thats pvp) Speeding up mindblast/cloak of shadow casting speed allows for easier survivability, faster teleport speed allows you to speed up how fast you can get around and is just good both offensive and defensive. Assassins are casters and should use fcr even if traps themselves do not benefit from fcr.


    @Jednowlosy: that screenshot looks wrong. The dex needed for max block on spirit is 331 at level 99, I know as a friend of mine has a level 99 maxblock spirit trapper (174fcr pvp build) on a priv realm. If you want check the block calculator yourself http://www.baronsbazaar.invisionzone.com/ppr/block_calc.html

    You sure you didn't do something silly like up the base block% on your monarch, given this is a hero edited character?


    Max block for spirit at level 99 is 331 dex, max block for stormshield at level 99 is 222 dex.
     
  19. improvius

    improvius IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    I don't think fcr is vital at all. My hybrid has zero fcr and doesn't have any problems. Then again, I never use MB, so maybe that's why I don't miss it.
     
  20. Alc

    Alc IncGamers Member

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    Re: Jed's Trapper/Kicker variation

    Presumably you're not using tele either, as tele at 0 FCR is pretty frustrating.
     

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