Javazon - Tgods vs Razortail

warwaffle

Diabloii.Net Member
Javazon - Tgods vs Razortail

Thoughts? I can't seem to figure out which would be better for LF/CS. Tgods obviously offers more damage but Razortail would give 100% pierce meaning more hits. A lot of you out there seem to be really good at doing all your crazy calculations. :wink3:
 

slayer37

Diabloii.Net Member
Since crawlingdeadman votes for razortail, I'll go with Tgods just so we have an argument going. :grin:

Kidding aside, it's really a matter of preference. Some people absolutely need 100% pierce (like me) while others are content with less.
 

YogiRat

Diabloii.Net Member
We need a good debate

Coming from the hardcore perspective, I prefer Tgods in dangerous places like A5 hell. I'll gladly give up the pierce, damage and dex that razor offers for the lit sorb and vit that Tgods give. Anywhere else it's razor.

Pierce, there is no arguing about that it's valuable. But, how often is it really utilized in the game? With a really fast attack speed, does it really matter if you have a 30% chance or a 95% chance? How often do the monsters line up correctly so it can be used to it's full potential?
 

slayer37

Diabloii.Net Member
Coming from the hardcore perspective, I prefer Tgods in dangerous places like A5 hell. I'll gladly give up the pierce, damage and dex that razor offers for the lit sorb and vit that Tgods give. Anywhere else it's razor.
Agreed with the HC perspective. I think it's important to note that "damage given up" here is physical since you gain more lightning damage with LF using Tgods. The loss in dex, 15 to be exact, is made up for with excess by the 20 to strength provided by Tgods. To put in succintly, all you lose is the pierce if razortail is not to be equipped.

Pierce, there is no arguing about that it's valuable. But, how often is it really utilized in the game? With a really fast attack speed, does it really matter if you have a 30% chance or a 95% chance? How often do the monsters line up correctly so it can be used to it's full potential?
Monsters by themselves do not "line up" so that you could kill them all with 1-2 LF throws. You make them bunch up with "herding" (read: strategic retreats / decoy placing / etc) and only then will pierce really shine.



 

NASE

Diabloii.Net Member
Pierce, there is no arguing about that it's valuable. But, how often is it really utilized in the game? With a really fast attack speed, does it really matter if you have a 30% chance or a 95% chance? How often do the monsters line up correctly so it can be used to it's full potential?
I'll be doing the calculations agian. And this time, I'm sure they are correct - just had an exam of statistics. All who don't believe me, stick it where the sun don't shine, or try to convince me.

Lets assume at all times, thier will be 6 monsters in a line so the maximum number of pierces is 5. This seems like a nice number, some claim that this really is the maximum number of pierces and don't forget, this is just a number, just take an other number if you believe 5 is to much or to little.

Lets start with 30% pierce. Your chance-tree will look like this.
Code:
|--70%--1 hit
|
|--30%--pierce
               |--70%--2 hits
               |
               |--30%--pierce 2
                                |--70%--3 hits
                                |
                                |--30%--pierce
.......
Note, you need an other 2 branches to get to the total number of 5 pierces.
Lets sum the chances at the end of the branches and see that it will be 1.
P[1 hit]+P[2 hits]+P[3]+P[4]+P[5]+P[6*]
=0.7+0.3*0.7+0.3²*0.7+0.3³*0.7+0.3²*0.3²*0.7+0.3²*0.3³
=1

*: if you pierce 5 monsters, you will hit the first monsters, the first monster of the first pierce, the first monsters after the second pierce...
Total number of monsters hit = 6

The average is.
P[1 hit]*1+P[2 hits]*2+P[3]*3+P[4]*4+P[5]*5+P[6]*6
=...
=1.42753 hits.

This means that if you were to do 100 damage without any pierce, you will be doing 142 damage with 30% pierce.
Nice you say?

95% pierce
we can do the same calculations and reasoning as we have done above. Lets have a look at the average.
5.298 hits.
This means that if you were to do 100 damage, you'd be doing 529 damage with 95% pierce.


So don't come and say pierce isn't worth it in general play. Even with only 3 monsters to pierce, the extra damage is huge. The only time when pierce isn't usefull is when you kill the monsters with a single hit. Though that ain't often the case, now is it?
note that extra fast throw speed doesn't chance much. You'll still have the same extra damage as you would have with a slow attack speed.



 

YogiRat

Diabloii.Net Member
Nice stat work. I realized after I posted that I pulled that 30% chance out of a very dark place.:rolleyes: No ranged zon worth their salt would play without 8-9 points (65-69%) into pierce.

So don't come and say pierce isn't worth it in general play.
Who said that? Let me at them!:laugh:

Monsters by themselves do not "line up" so that you could kill them all with 1-2 LF throws. You make them bunch up with "herding" (read: strategic retreats / decoy placing / etc) and only then will pierce really shine.
Good point, the cow/corridor/decoy/doorway techniques. Some parts of this game have become so intuitive you don't think about it anymore. It's just like riding a bicycle. Still there are locations, (open, large chambers) where pierce isn't put to use because the monsters that inhabit those places don't herd very well.(archers,gloams etc.) My agruement for using Tgods over razor boils down just monster class BTW, gloams.
 

chien

Diabloii.Net Member
Use both :) Use razortail most of the time and Tgod when the situation is bad (Souls.... etc). It only occupy 2 spaces in stash.

Chien
 

w a t s o n

Diabloii.Net Member
When I played a java I used tgods. As has been stated the extra dmg and survivability are very nice; one thing not mentioned yet is the 20 str, this is very nice as well for equipping a monarch. I tried both and the difference between 85-90ish% pierce(hard points in skill) and 100% pierce(hard points and razor) was hardly noticeable and not nearly worth all of the other mods from tgods. Sure razor can help save you some hard points, but there are not that many other better places to put them. This is just my opinion however and many will disagree, preferring that extra bit of pierce and getting some extra points to spend somewhere.
 

AgentMarth

Diabloii.Net Member
I use Tgod's personally. Like YogiRat, I also play HC and like the mods on Tgod's better. The 20 str helps to get that SS on. 20 Vita = love, and Light mods = laughing at Souls. It is really just icing that it has + to Fury.

I never really notice much a loss not having max Peirce just so long as its a decent level. Since I am sporting a high enough Fury with good -res everything dies quick enough anyways. Anything left over gets mopped up with CS anyways, so Pierce becomes moot then.

Yes if monsters are lined up Razortail can be better, but I'd rather fire off 1 more Fury then take my time lining up monsters. So I use Tgod's overall. However, if she was strictly a cow Java, then Razor all the way.
 

Lizardking

Diabloii.Net Member
put one in pierce and use shako, spirit ,titans,torch,anni, some skillers and you can reach 80 pierce easy :)
 
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