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I've Read for 2 Days... Now My Questions...

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by lesofprimus, Mar 19, 2004.

  1. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    I've Read for 2 Days... Now My Questions...

    Alot of info here on makin a sin... More than any other char i've researched before... I've read for 2 days, from guides to questions posted... Answered many of my questions... But some remain...
    I will describe my char thoughts and my feelings towards the build...

    I have made 3 assassins before... 1.09 Sins... 2 good ones and my first, that sucked...

    I play ladder now... PvM... I really dont duel cept with my pally... have 5 chars in the 80's... I have mostly elite gear... Basically top o da line items... No runewords tho...

    Anyways, MA is the only way for me to go... So... I read all that i can.... U have basically 2 options here , if i see things right... TS/Dtail, or DTalon...
    My good assassin i made before used DClaw... No one seems to have any ideas on that build, so obviously it sucks...

    My desires for a MA are as such...

    Massive phys damage...
    TS/Dtail attack
    Nice elem attack for PI...
    PS/CoT synergy
    BoS
    ??? on C/C or C/S
    ???WB

    My questions will start now...

    1) Is there an attack speed difference between DTail or DTalon??
    which has the higher top end damage??? Which attack will kill faster???

    2) Is there an attack speed difference between using C/C vs C/S , while charging and discharging??
    if usin same gear on both setups, minus the second claw... do certain skills charge faster or discharge faster with 1h vs 2h...

    3) The blockin issue confuses me... C/C vs C/S... with weapon block, u can block elem... But readin in the posts, some complained that getting WB too high causes u to block lock... get caught up in the animation, cant swing or charge, and cant leech... therefore u die... read the pros and cons of both in the guide... I like the higher str = more dam than addin dex for block %...
    Which rig kills faster??? Which one will let u survive hell better???

    4) The whole charging thing has me confused... When usin DTail, u charge up JUST? TS and go around 3 charge/DTail discharge??? Or do u also charge up PS and CoT, then discharge the whole pile of pain??? I understand the diff attacks for PI vs LI and whatnot... Ive read that doin so negates some of the splash damage for TS... Someone please clarify this 4 me... whats the best way to fight this girl???

    5) Gear really isnt an issue... Im not wearin nats set... Ill prob do the Gaze or Andys/Shaft or Levi/Draculs/UG Gores/String or Verdugos...

    6) Claws are another matter... It seems like the defacto man here syas that Tucs are best to use, but what else should i use with it??? either the other claw or a shield... U see where I am stuck on this???

    I appreciate all ur comments and ideas... Im sure ill have more questions to come...
     
  2. C-Beat

    C-Beat IncGamers Member

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    1) DTalon is faster but does alot less dmg. The area of affect dmg with DTail is fire dmg, not physical.

    2) Not really. However, c/c speeds are calculated on the average WSM iirc. Check the Dragoons calculator.

    3) If it's for pvm i prefer weapon block with c/c. There's no need to pump it really, 1 point is enough with +skills. It's overall a very good block skill since it can block elemental attacks. The only downside in pvm is the lower attack rating from low dex. but with 2 tucs that shouldnt be a problem anyway. oterhwise c/c gives higher dmg because of +skills, more life and overall better mods. If pvm i'd go c/c.

    4) To use DTail you first charge up Tiger Strike as high as possible, then release with DTail. Dont think it's a good idea to charge up other skills aswell, the dmg over time will probably be lower.
    The downside of DTail is that it does not work on PIs because the fire splash dmg you deal is based on the dealt physical dmg. So if the monster recieves 0 physical dmg then the splash will deal 0 fire dmg.

    5) If your pvm then the best base gear items are shako(if DTail), guillames face(if DTalon), verdungo, 2*tucs(or tuc+jade for resists), raven and a pair of elite boots such as upped gores(DTalon) or shadow dancers(DTail).

    6) if you need the resists then equip a jade talons on your offhand claw. other good options are strenght reneword if you're going the DTalon route.

    Hope i answered some questions :)

    regards
    C-Beat
     
  3. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    Beat...
    Thx for the reply... good info there...
    now my follow ups...

    1) If DTail splash damage is based on phys dam, is that to say that usin DTail charged up with PS to fight a lightning immune is useless??? I'm not sure im understanding u...

    EX... i run up on 4 baddies... regular baddies.. No immunities... I would, under my own thinking, charge up TS, PS, and CoT (3), and then drop the hammer with a kick... So the baddies get physical blam, cold blam, and lightnin bam...

    Am I wrong on this???

    EX... i run up on a group of minions that are LI, and a unique baddie thats PI and LI... I would, under my own thinking, charge up TS and PS (3), and kick a minion, until minions die, then work on unique monster with PS (1 or 3 charges) and DTail...

    Am I wrong on this as well???

    If I am wrong, then how do I combat baddies such as I have listed??? Give some examples if u can...

    Why would my attack be LESS damage if I charged up all my charges (TS/PS/CoT) before release, as opposed to just TS/DTail...

    Im gettin myself confused here... LOL

    Someone straighten me out here...
     
  4. C-Beat

    C-Beat IncGamers Member

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    1) You can use DTail without TS, but the physical dmg dealt without TS is very low so the dtAil splash dmg will be very low.
    Howeverm if the monster is PIs, meaning he will not take any physical dmg, then your spalsh dmg will be zero. The splash dmg is calculated from how much physical dmg the target is recieving.
    For Lightning immunes TS+DTail works fine, but against fire immunes you need another attack, for example CoT or PS. It's no use to release them with DTail as the monsters is PI and therefor does not take any physical dmg.

    EX1:
    If you encounter a group of non PIs then your best tactic would probably be just to use TS+DTail. If you were to calculate the dmg over time i think TS+DTail would deal more than to charge up CoT and PS too. Also, its quite hard to charge up all of them at once.

    EX2:
    DTails dmg depends on the cahr you are hiting! if you kick a monster that is not PI then the monster around him will take fire dmg from DTail. So if there's just one PI then you can hit the monsters sround him and he will take dmg from the splash.
    For PI/LIs the best skill would probably be the first charge of PS. The burning fire stacks nicely.


    C-Beat
     
  5. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    Thx again for ur reply Beat...
    Things are gettin clearer to me...

    As I have stated earlier, I have made assassin before, only that i made them and played them the way I thought to... I usually charged up all my charges available to me...

    ie... charge up TS/PS/CoT/CS, then release...

    It makes sense to me about what ur sayin concerning TS/DTail... It would definatly apply more physical damage in a shorter period of time... If dealing with no immunity baddies...

    Concerning the PI aspect, if Dtail splash damage is based on physical damage dealt to main target, how am i supposed to deal with PI???

    I Understand what u were sayin concerning 1 PI baddie and 4 non-immunes... Hit the non-immunes and the spalsh will affect the PI... Thats cool to know...

    *** the below is under the assumption that the PI/LI is by himself...***

    You said to use PS/CoT on PI/LI monsters... this makes sense to me... Although whats the point of usin CoT if baddie is LI???? What do I use to release the charges??? If DTail splash damage is negated because of the PI part, basically what ur sayin is that only the released charges will hurt said baddie... Not the DTail kick... Then , it seems to me, that it will take forever and a day to kill said baddie usin PS (1charge)(meteor) and DTail... Does Dtail translate any damage to PI baddie??? Or is it all on the PS meteor drop???

    Is there another release that will combat the problem with DTail??? I couldnt find any info concerning this...

    HOW WOULD U COMBAT THIS ASSASSIN???

    Do u see where i am gettin confused... LMAO... I wasnt this confused before i started readin on how to build...


    Thanks for ur help... Wheres everyone elses comments??? C-Beat and me doin it all here...
     
  6. C-Beat

    C-Beat IncGamers Member

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    Ok, let me make a small list to make things easier to understand.

    This is how you deal with immunities:

    PI: CoT or PS. IF both are maxed than the second charge of PS is great for PI crowds.

    LI: TS+DTail

    CI: TS+DTail

    FI: TS or CoT if it's only one or two monsters, otherwise PS second charge. As i said above, the second charge is great for crowds.

    PI/LI: You have 2 options here, either PS first charge or PS third charge. The first one is probably the best though. With some +skills it should do the job well.

    PI/FI: Either CoT for single targets or PS second charge for crowds

    PI/CI: Same as PI/FI.

    All the rest: TS+DTail should do the job.

    Release PS and CoT with either normal attack or dragon claw. 1 poin in dragon claw is enough though.

    Hope this cleared things up a bit ;)

    C-Beat
     
  7. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    For some highly Fire-resistant(but not Immune) critters like Venom Lords(which have 95% FR), Claw Vipers(which generally have a lower LR than FR) and Succubi(ditto), you may want to consider switching to CoT/PS.
     
  8. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    ok.... thx for the info.. that helps..... cleared it up some 4 me....

    For PI monsters, use DClaw..... with PS/CoT.... 1 pt into DClaw will work...

    The other attacks i got figured out....

    If thats right, I think we got it figured out... I read the ias sticky and its very technical... I never knew assassins were so compicated...

    Thanks again for ur ideas and comments C-Beat.... And ur little iteresting ditty there Nali...
     
  9. C-Beat

    C-Beat IncGamers Member

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    Glad i could help!

    Good luck with your build!

    C-Beat
     
  10. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    Actually, i have a couple more questions regarding weaps...

    After readin up, i know that the weap on the left of screen is the dominant weap... (With 2x Claws)
    The one on right is for resists and skills and what not...

    I know that damage on the weap is irrelevant... usin a claw with 89 dam on it does the same as a claw with 3 damage... Becase of DTail...

    I have been lookin at speed and effects for the weaps...
    And here are my questions...

    My assassin is at level 22... I have many low lev claws to use...

    EX 1) Havoc Scratch Wrist Spike -10 speed
    19-40 dam
    3-14 cold dam added
    4 mana per kill
    134 to AR
    the only item here thats relevant is the base -10 weap speed??? Do i get the 4 mana per kill??? what about AR??? Cold Damage???

    EX 2) War Rend Cestus 0 speed
    18-29 dam
    20 ias
    2 mana per kill
    15% fire rez
    is this weap faster??? does the 20ias make this weap faster than -10 speed??? The resists still work right???

    EX 3) Pain Mark Wrist Blade 0 speed
    16-28 dam
    21 psn dam
    7% ML
    2% LL
    Does the leech work with DTail??? what about the added psn???

    I know u got the answers i need C-Beat...
     
  11. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    Come on guys... Nali??? C-B??? Someones gotta be able to answer these questions...

    Sorry for the self-bump...
     
  12. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    EX 1) Mana/kill, AR and cold damage all work on DTail. However, the Cold damage is only applied to the critter, not the AoE.

    EX 2) Resists work. Whether the 20% IAS will make the claw faster than a -10 WSM claw depends on your choice of off-hand claw.

    EX 3) Leech works, and so does the poison. Again, the leech and poison only take affect on the critter you target the DTail on(you can't leech from DTail's AoE).
     
  13. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    Nali...

    thx for clearin that up for me...

    The IAS question is as such.....

    My offhand claw is a blade talon (-20)...
    Now.. if i use another Blade talon vs a Cestus (0) with 20% ias on it, the blade talon will be faster???

    Or are they the same speed???
     
  14. C-Beat

    C-Beat IncGamers Member

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    the first hand claw isnt allways the claw to the left on the screen. It's the claw you equip first. However, if you dic and pickup your corpse or weapon switch then the left claw on the screen becomes your first hand claw.

    I'd go either 2*tucs or tuc+jade if you need the resists. +skills really increase the dmg done by DTail, TS and PS so thats your best choices. Also very cheap ones aswell :)

    C-Beat
     
  15. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    The Blade Talon will be faster, though not by much.
     
  16. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    could u explain how it would be faster, if only slightly???

    I would assume that there is some sort of difference between added IAS and claw base speed..... But for future reference, do u think you could explain alittle more detail as to why???

    Thx...
     
  17. Naliworld

    Naliworld IncGamers Member

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    Sorry, made a mistake. The Blade Talon/Cestus with 20% IAS combination is faster.

    IAS as a mod is subject to diminishing returns, so the actual EIAS gain is smaller than listed.

    Whereas, EIAS(BoS's speed bonus type) directly subtracts the claw's base WSM, so EIAS is a lot more effective.

    Using this calculator:

    1) For two Blade Talons, input the Base as 'manual'(13, which is the base speed for single claw attacks, like PS/TS). WSM would be -20, as the average of both WSMs is still -20. Press 'Show Table', and you'll be shown a popup with three columns. As there is 0 IAS(from the leftmost column, you still have 20 EIAS, which translates to a WSM of -20).

    2) For Blade Talon/Cestus with 20% IAS, input the Base as 13, and the WSM as -10(average of both WSMs). Press 'Show Table' and look for the IAS number ''22''(it isn't 20%, but close enough for an estimate). It matches with the EIAS number ''28''(it's actually maybe about 26-27, as you only have 20% IAS), which translates to a -28 WSM, which is faster than the -20 WSM of the previous paragraph.
     
  18. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus IncGamers Member

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    Nali dude... that was a great explaination mano... thank you very much for that info...
     

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