Israel and its neightbors are at it again

[Nazdakka]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

How many times have we been here before? They have one of these battles once every few years, lots of Palestinians and a few Isrealis die, then we go back to status quo until next time.

We need a permenant solution, and that's not something that can be imposed by force. Buried beneath all the long history of violence on both sides, the Palestinians have suffered an injustice, and that is something that needs to be addressed. Of course, that also means that the attacks on Isreali cities need to stop.

I don't know what shape that solution should take, but do know that I can't see a way for either side to achieve a military victory.

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Why can't different groups learn to get along like here in Canada?

I suggest you take it up with the Québécois - or indeed the various Islamist groups that have taken root in Canadian inner cities.

 

[stillman]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

^ We have our differences in Canada, but we don't kill each other over it. And if any 'Islamist' groups in Canada so much as cause someone to slip on some ice as they leave their house, they're going to get slammed with a criminal record, charges, demands for deportation by other Canadian Islamists, and much worse... ....paper work.

Our government will screw you hard even when you're law abiding! Have you seen our taxes? We're getting taxed to death. I believe immegrants need to be rich just to get in here, or so I've been told.

Anyway, I'd like to appologize to everyone who is really in to this stuff about my previous post. I didn't even read most of this yet. I just can't wrap my head around who is more evil or who killed the higher percentage of babies per week of fighting, who makes the most innocent-looking suicide bombers and who's land mines blow off the most kids' limbs, etc. Is one side 2% less inhumane as the other? Are they the good guys? Which radical extremist group/religion should should I root for when they are counter retaliating for yesterdays attacks? Well, there I go again. I'll leave it to the rest of you to sort out this mess.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

instigation (who started it. who's guilty) is a big deal.

as a sane human, u (at least i can't) can't possibly blame the person or people that got attacked or victimized from trying to stop the attack on them and to protect themselves even if they have to do so with force, even offensive and even superior force.

if palistinian are upset at the greater force of isreal (many palistinians dead and only a few isrealis in comparison), than they should be upset at hamas, hezbolah, or whoever commited acts of war against isreal (shooting a military weapon, a missle, from one country across the border of another country IS AN ACT OF WAR, and the attacked nation has EVERY RIGHT to wage war back trying to not get killed or destroyed). isreal has the right to engage in self defense in the war against them by people who attacked them. yes people are dying, THAT'S WAR. war is ugly and brutal. and most of the time the warring sides are not equal. one is more powerful than the other. equal power is actually a rarity in war. in fact, that's a 101 tactic of war. superior force and numbers..yada yada yada.. (sun tzu, the art of war). when u have war, you play to win. nothing is more serious and important than victory in war, because a loss in war means death or destruction. isreal has every right to try to win in the war that was initiated against them. isreali did NOT want war and thus certainly didn't create the war. all those who commited AN ACT OF WAR against isreal created and started the war. sadly, the palistinians (who weren't and aren't trying to war and kill isrealis, like hamas or hezbulah or whoever was) find themselves in the middle of the war between those who want the jewish people and isreal to be destroyed and the isrealis/jewish people who don't want to be killed and destroyed. also, the only reason the palistinians are in the middle of the war is because of hamas or hezbulah or whoever, whom are using palistinians and the west bank as their hostages and shields against isrealis self defense war against hamas, hezbulah, and whoever else. so palistinians have multiple reasons to be mad at the actual instigators: those who commited acts of war against isreal.

all the blame and fault is on: those who commited acts of war against isreal (like hamas, hezbulah, al'qaeda, and whoever else who desires the genocide of the isrealis and jewish people jsut like hitler desired 60 or so years ago, that the entire world seems to have forgotten, and fail to see the same genocidal hatred and crime being done by hitler and hitler's germany's successors: the middle east' extreme arabs-muslims fanatics).

 

[stillman]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Idk, what's going on now seems trivial compared to 800,000 Rewandans (spelling?) that were murdered in the 90's. Well, not to trivialize what people are going through now, but I'm saying the numbers are quite staggering and different.

Point is, the history-forgetfulness has already happened.

Then there's the Congo conflict which has been all but ignored due to more 'interesting' things going on in the world hogging our attention...like Britney Spears going to rehab or something.

Let's say, hypothetically, both sides have committed horrible atrocities on each other over the years (decades? centuries?). Let's also say each side continues to use particularly nasty warfare tactics (human shields, killing women/children civilians, etc). So doesn't this mean, in some sick macro level way, that deaths on either side are kind of a good thing? You can't commit horrific war time attrocities when you're dead, right?

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

i'm not saying that isrealis are entirely innocent.

i'm sure isrealis have been abusive and violating with the settlement conflict as much as the palistinians.

but with the isreali vs middle east conflict, they ARE innocent.

and if any people, care about other people, it should be the jewish people. no one can even comprehend just how nightmarish the holocaust was. the jewish people are the last people on this earth who want to abuse and violate otehr people, being that they were the victims of unimaginable crime and evil of bad-evil people.

though, the africa continent genocide (all over africa, not jsut the darfur area) is nightmarish as well. hard to compare which brutality is worse.....

hmm... is the gas chambers of the holocuast worse... or is having some stoned-drugged up african soldier of a warlord coming into a town and chopping woman's breasts off with a machete (and also worse things are done too. but i'm probably already getting too graphic despite that being the actual reality for a woman or lil girl in africa)...worse...hmm.... as i said it's not possible to compare brutatlity. brutality is brutality. genocide is genocide.

there's also the genocides that happened in asia too, with the japanese and chinese war (i think) and the genocide that took place known as the rape of manking.

there's so much genocide everywhere in the world, and over our entire history and even still today

that it's hard for me to list them all.....there's so many...

all of these genocides has been the result of a singe hatred-ful attitude: "that person is different than me, and somehow that means, i am excussed and justified to murder/genocide him or that people...."

i'm ashamed to be a human being
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however, there is (to me anyways) a difference from WAR and genocide. (of course genocide can occur in-during a war as well. war crimes against humanity=genocide). but war by itself is not genocide (to me anyways).
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this is very controversal, but THEE longest and oldest genocide, has been against people labeled as:

"criminals"

it IS the longest and oldest labelization. that's NOT the controversy. the controversy IS whether u consider it genocide or not, what humanity has done and treated people labeled as "criminals" over the course of our history. not even the mass genocidal numbers of africa, comes close to the entire history of humanity of our awful treatment of those labeled as "criminals".

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

but with the isreali vs middle east conflict, they ARE innocent.

and if any people, care about other people, it should be the jewish people. no one can even comprehend just how nightmarish the holocaust was. the jewish people are the last people on this earth who want to abuse and violate otehr people, being that they were the victims of unimaginable crime and evil of bad-evil people.

Do we have to go back to how Israel was created (in the 1900's) again?

Also - don't forget homosexuals and gypsies who were murdered by the nazis in similar quantities.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Do we have to go back to how Israel was created (in the 1900's) again? -PFSS
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i thought i did a good job of NOT rewriting the lengthy explanation of the views-opinion that i did so in another thread.... V.V
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Also - don't forget homosexuals and gypsies who were murdered by the nazis in similar quantities. - PFSS
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very true, thanks for bringing it up, i forgot to mention about them along with the jewish people.

it's like the extinction of the dinosaurs, eveyone knows about the dinosaurs getting wiped out, but most don't realize 69% more different life forms went extinct besides the 1% life forms known as dinosaurs.

so it's the same with the holocaust. most only know about the jewish people being slaughtered, when actually as u thankfully pointed out so were homosexuals and gypsies.

i was aware of this too, but obviously i completely forgot to mention them

my most sincere apologizes...to homosexuals and gypsies.

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Also - don't forget homosexuals and gypsies who were murdered by the nazis in similar quantities.

Mind your syntax - "in similar proportions" would be accurate. Many Christians too.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Mind your syntax - "in similar proportions" would be accurate. Many Christians too.

Oops... My apologies. I just looked it up, I remembered the stat as being something like "Other groups such as ±1.5 million Gypsies and Homosexuals" thinking ±3,000,000 when it seems that Roma, Freemasons, Homosexuals and Disabled totaled ±1.5 million.

 

[Galabab]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

If one would pile up all the jews killed in the WW2 you will get aproximatly a pile of dead bodies 100 m² aria and 5 km height...

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

If one would pile up all the jews killed in the WW2 you will get aproximatly a pile of dead bodies 100 m² aria and 5 km height...

A 10m by 10m area?

How big would the pile of dead Russians be?

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

A 10m by 10m area?

How big would the pile of dead Russians be?

You should be able to figure that equation out by yourself provided our 10 by 10 is fixed.

 

[Module88]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

You should be able to figure that equation out by yourself provided our 10 by 10 is fixed.

WB, a completely malnourished *** is going to occupy a different volume than a semi malnourished Russian. This is not an easy calculation, though I suppose it is important in that it helps us get a perspective of just how bad things were. Either way, there were a whole lot of dead bodies on both sides. Too bad the Jews didn't have the means to fight back, huh?

 

[moo-cow]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

also, while the russians may have used their own citizens and criminals for cannon fodder; the jews weren't given such a choice.

looking at the wikipedia numbers I should've chosen some different language for making fun of the USSR. Ignoring their Jewish losses considering how anti-semitic they were, their 10.7M military and 11.4M civilian fatalities would be 18.4 km high (given a 10 square meter base). Also assuming whoever came up with the meaningless statistic assumed a heathy person in place of a Holocaust victim.

anyway, we'll see how long this "cease fire" lasts with Hamas members and supporters still alive. I was also amused that after the Hamas leaders in Lebanon called for a pause/halt/whatever from their end their counterparts in Gaza had to, in the media, repeat the call.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

You should be able to figure that equation out by yourself provided our 10 by 10 is fixed.

Just checking - a lot of people get 100 meters squared and 100 square meters mixed up. And it seemed odd to propose a pile with a 500:1 height to width ratio but the 100x100 base would have been waaaaay too many people.

Also assuming whoever came up with the meaningless statistic assumed a heathy person in place of a Holocaust victim.

And assuming that during the bloodiest conflict on the bloodiest battle front in human history that either the soldiers fighting or the civilians massacred after the Germans advanced and plundered the newly captured towns and villages were healthy people.

anyway, we'll see how long this "cease fire" lasts with Hamas members and supporters still alive. I was also amused that after the Hamas leaders in Lebanon called for a pause/halt/whatever from their end their counterparts in Gaza had to, in the media, repeat the call.

I give it three days until some asshat fires a rocket or Israel does a 'tactical strike' to take out a target of some sort.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

WB, a completely malnourished *** is going to occupy a different volume than a semi malnourished Russian. This is not an easy calculation, though I suppose it is important in that it helps us get a perspective of just how bad things were. Either way, there were a whole lot of dead bodies on both sides. Too bad the Jews didn't have the means to fight back, huh?

The Russians were pretty deprived of ways to fight Stalin back, too. Jews usually didn't have someone trying to kill them on the both sides of the front, even if their situation was by no means enviable. Point is, like you said, the pile isn't getting any smaller.

anyway, we'll see how long this "cease fire" lasts with Hamas members and supporters still alive. I was also amused that after the Hamas leaders in Lebanon called for a pause/halt/whatever from their end their counterparts in Gaza had to, in the media, repeat the call.

I thought it already ended with the shoddy ******s shooting rockets. It indeed seems to be a pause for charging their lazzor for them.

And assuming that during the bloodiest conflict on the bloodiest battle front in human history that either the soldiers fighting or the civilians massacred after the Germans advanced and plundered the newly captured towns and villages were healthy people.

Module88 is right, even if "semi-malnourished" sounds belittling. The ?????? were in a constant state of hunger, yes, but their starvation was more of an exception to the rule than the goal for the Russian war command - talking in average values, there is no comparison between their weakened state and of someone who's been 500 days on a death camp. Someone generally tried to keep them relatively healthy until they could be thrown into the fire.

 

[Module88]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

The Russians were pretty deprived of ways to fight Stalin back, too. Jews usually didn't have someone trying to kill them on the both sides of the front, even if their situation was by no means enviable. Point is, like you said, the pile isn't getting any smaller.

Hey, I never said the Russians were having a jolly time. Wasn't exactly tea and crumpets over there...

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

at the hillary clinton senate hearings for secretary of state confirmation:

a florida senator mentions to clinton that an american from florida has gone "missing" in iran.....(southerners aren't too smart...no idea why any american would be in iran....), if it was more than jsut one person....can we say iranian hostage crisis # 2.......

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Just picked this up on the GW OTF and recalled WildBerry's request for proof...
Hamas murder campaign in Gaza exposed

Islamist regime has killed dozens and tortured others as 'collaborators' with Israel in war's aftermath, Amnesty and Guardian sources say