Israel and its neightbors are at it again

[moo-cow]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I think you're completely missing the point. Ignoring that you clearly want all Jews out of Israel as the solution, Israelis are fighting for the right to live without fear of terrorist attacks every time we get on a bus or go to sleep at night and Hamas, and by extension the majority of Palestinians, the majority being those who aid and abet and vote for them, are fighting for the "honor" of killing every *** who doesn't flee their path and every Arab who they view as a *** lover. We frankly don't really care how evil you think we are or how righteous you think the Palestinians are; how Right and Correct the Palestinians are for suicide bombs and rocket attacks or how much Israel is a monster for killing terrorists and destroying weapon caches. So keep on cheering a people who wish Israel's destruction.

If Israel falls, Europe is next.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
according to what u said -- you would not hold a criminal or murderer accountable and punish them, because the act had alredy been done...that's ubsurd.

Are you talking to me? I just said you misused the term. It would make no sense to call for a ceasefire when no-one's shooting. You might want to call for trial of the guilty - I'd be right with you there, yelling - sure, but cease-fire won't get you that. Argue against what I have said, not something you made up. -wildberry
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my bad, i think maybe i'm confusing u guys with my "ceasefire". its in quatations for a reason, but i didn't explain that reason. err.. this is gonna be hard to do ...lets see... if i can explain this with some clarity....and not make u guys more confused....

"ceasefire" is what is being cried beg for as the jewish people isrealis fight back. so i've used this (ceasefire) as a "buzzword" for "wrong doing" and thus i said this:

"where is the "ceasefire" ("ceasefire" = cry of wrong doing) over the 30 years of missles being shot into isreal from anotehr country ? or whatever other litany of crimes that i posted that the arab-muslim-middle east has commited ?"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

(this is no longer an isreali-palistinian conflict and never has been. the middle east has been at war with isreal since isreal was created in the middle east)

When you and a few million of your buddies decide to move into another country with the stated goal of taking land from that country to form your own nation you can normally expect the folks already there to get a bit tetchy about the whole issue. -PFSS
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if isreal is indeed simply taking land that is the palistians or not there land or beyond isreal, than that is INDEED wrong (conquest is not acceptable anymore in the modern world) and i'd be 100% against this isreal action if it is indeed occuring by itself.

is there any proof that this is indeed the case ?

however, if isreal is taking land to stop the war and death against their people, that's called war, a defensive war, self defense. isreali especially has the right to self defense when the middle east trying to destroy them for at least 30 years now.
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this is taken from PFSS' post 100 in the off topic thread, isreal and palastin at it again:

Quote:
hotel murders, violating the geneva conventions of rules of treatment of prisoners, waging war with palestine for like 30 years or so by the act of war of sending high tech fighter planes and gunships across borders into palestine and kidnapping and killing palestinians
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this is NOT my quote, u altered the bottom part of it. that's defamation and/or plagerism. i demand u or a moderator corrects this.

my actual quotes from post #95 in the off topic thread, isreal and palastin at it again:

"where was the U.N. and the world demanding a "ceasefire" when daniel pearl and other journallists and news reporters were kidnaped, tortured, beheaded ??" -HegemonKhan

"india hotel murder...etc...too lazy to find and copy the corresponding quote of mine"

"violating the geneva conventions of rules of treatment of prisoners..etc...too lazy to find and copy the corresponding quote of mine"

no where did i type-write this:

"...waging war with palestine for like 30 years or so by the act of war of sending high tech fighter planes and gunships across borders into palestine and kidnapping and killing palestinians"

this is taken from PFSS below "quote" that he says is mine

Quote:
hotel murders, violating the geneva conventions of rules of treatment of prisoners, waging war with palestine for like 30 years or so by the act of war of sending high tech fighter planes and gunships across borders into palestine and kidnapping and killing palestinians

this is not my quote. first of all u combine a few of my quotes into one quote and u added in your own part at the bottom as well which i never said-typed anywhere in my post.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Quote:
----------------------
my bad, i think maybe i'm confusing u guys with my "ceasefire". its in quatations for a reason, but i didn't explain that reason. err.. this is gonna be hard to do ...lets see... if i can explain this with some clarity....and not make u guys more confused....

"ceasefire" is what is being cried beg for as the jewish people isrealis fight back. so i've used this (ceasefire) as a "buzzword" for "wrong doing" and thus i said this:

"where is the "ceasefire" ("ceasefire" = cry of wrong doing) over the 30 years of missles being shot into isreal from anotehr country ? or whatever other litany of crimes that i posted that the arab-muslim-middle east has commited ?"

That made more sense. Like PFSS said, you've been listening with only one ear. Violence in general is condemned by the rest of the world. If you miss it, it's not the fault of the rest of the world - they're not obliged to send these condemnations to your mailbox personally.

However, you are entirely right in that the rest of the world tends to admonish Israel rather than the Palestinian fighters, since Israel is an established state and thus easier to get hold of. And I agree with you, it's wrong.

"...waging war with palestine for like 30 years or so by the act of war of sending high tech fighter planes and gunships across borders into palestine and kidnapping and killing palestinians"

this is taken from PFSS below "quote" that he says is mine

Quote:
hotel murders, violating the geneva conventions of rules of treatment of prisoners, waging war with palestine for like 30 years or so by the act of war of sending high tech fighter planes and gunships across borders into palestine and kidnapping and killing palestinians

this is not my quote. first of all u combine a few of my quotes into one quote and u added in your own part at the bottom as well which i never said-typed anywhere in my post.

I think he was imitating your style, and giving what was in his opinion a similiarly unbalanced account - but this time, from the other side - of what was happening. I'd say that's pretty bad form.

I think you're completely missing the point. Ignoring that you clearly want all Jews out of Israel as the solution, Israelis are fighting for the right to live without fear of terrorist attacks every time we get on a bus or go to sleep at night and Hamas, and by extension the majority of Palestinians, the majority being those who aid and abet and vote for them, are fighting for the "honor" of killing every *** who doesn't flee their path and every Arab who they view as a *** lover. We frankly don't really care how evil you think we are or how righteous you think the Palestinians are; how Right and Correct the Palestinians are for suicide bombs and rocket attacks or how much Israel is a monster for killing terrorists and destroying weapon caches. So keep on cheering a people who wish Israel's destruction.

If Israel falls, Europe is next.

And you keep fighting ghosts. No-one here is cheering for the destruction of Israel. There is even precious little understanding for Palestinians' actions - I haven't seen even those people who have viewed them fighting for what they think is their home to say they're doing a right or a justified thing.

I believe that there are not many who agree with taking the terrorists out. The core message of the dissenting posts, as far as I can tell, is that that's where it should end. There should be no bombs in the veggie markets. If they're sitting in a too thick civilian populace, root them out face-to-face. I personally lauded and cheered Israel moving ground forces to Gaza, hoping it would make the operations more to-the-point and surgical, which airstrikes rarely tend to be. Guess my hopes weren't well-placed, but one can always hope.

As to the Europe falling, there might be a few unadapted ragheads in France and Germany, but they're not going to topple anything. Mainly because they're rabble venting their temporary frustrations, not folks who think they have their lives on the line.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

well said wildberry, i actually am agreeing with most of your entire post this time

though i have personal disagreement with one thing:

if u choose or even just let hitler/hamas/osama bin laden/jim kim ill/bush/saddam/stalin/etc.. be your leader you are agreeing, supporting, and siding with it, and ARE JUST AS GUILTY AS THEY ARE.

if u sit and watch a uber heinous crime such as rape of a lil girl and do nothing to stop it, your saying that, that rape of the lil girl is alright and acceptible. the same is true with "terrorism". if u let your neighbor strap a suicide vest on and blow up innocent familes merely eating food at a restuarant or riding a bus to go to work, you're just as crminal and responsible as the person actually doing the crminal act. or for example if u let a nieghborhood be run-ruled by a gang its your own fault. clean it up yourself. and if u can't than some one else (the police) BETTER. and if that neigborhood's police wont clean up its own community, than another neighborhood or the state or even country better send in its police and clean it up. and if none of those forces take responsibilty than it falls to other countries or the entire world to come in and clean it up.

HUMANITY and what is acceptible human behavior and actions, has NO borders. americans are jsut as human as iranians or russians or germans or scandanavians or chinese or otehr asians or isrealis. we are ALL HUMANS, and their IS acceptible human behavior and actions and unacceptible human behavior and actions. and WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR EACH OTHER. HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HUMANS.

PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PEOPLE. yes, there is state sovereignty and it should be respected, but when they fail to be responsible for their own people, than the world and its people 's responsiblity over-rides state sovereignty.

as u can see i support "pre-emptive war" it's our duty as humans to be responsible for humans. be it terrorism, genocide in africa-darfur, starvation-brutality in north korea, chinese police murdered buddhist monks, etc...

it's the world's, the peoples of the world 's responsiblilty to stand up and say no, and if that (condenation-diplomacy-peacefulness) doesnt work, than violence and force and war is unfortunately required to stop the inhuman actions and behaviors of people or countries doing inhuman things to innocent people within their own coutry or other countries.

i'm more scary (hawkish) than dick cheney, if i was president of U.S. and if it was possible for the U.S. military, i'd ahve it clean up the entire world of all evil and unaccpetible human behavior and action i'd send the military to middle east cleaning out terrorism, to all of africa (not jsut darfur, all of africa is ghastly with its warlords-druglords running around pretending to be governments), north korea, etc....

unfortunately, even the U.S. military, has it's limits. we can barely handle the middle east, let alone dealing with the rest of the world as well. and many countries are taking advantage of this....russia.... V.V
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And you keep fighting ghosts. No-one here is cheering for the destruction of Israel. -wildberry

actually there's quite a few protest movements that ARE even now in my own U.S., even dressing like terorists.... actually using exact language of calling for the destruction of a country-people, aka genocide.

freedom of speech-expression doesn't mean total freedom....supporting, aiding, or embeding a criminal or worse enemy of the state is a serious crime that not even freedom of speech/expression would protect if it had a vioce lol.
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And you keep fighting ghosts. No-one here is cheering for the destruction of Israel. -wildberry

if isreal is fighting ghosts...i'm scared because they are pretty real and i thoguht ghosts weren't real...

most people (hopefully) aren't calling for the destruction of isreali, BUT they are allowing people and countries to attempt and engage in trying to destroy isreal with both silence and in-action.

i am STILL WAITING for the U.N., the security council, and the world itself to tell the middle east to STOP blowing up-murdering innocent poeple in isreali AND the rest of the world, like the U.S. (9-11), the train-subway bombings (madrid, spain), the busses (in london, britain), the wedding cermeony (?, jordan), the bombing and terorrism-murder (indonesia), the assassinations of politcal figures like abuto (whatever her name) (in pakistan? or palistin. i forgot which one. it been awhile), etc....

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

if isreal is indeed simply taking land that is the palistians or not there land or beyond isreal, than that is INDEED wrong (conquest is not acceptable anymore in the modern world) and i'd be 100% against this isreal action if it is indeed occuring by itself.

is there any proof that this is indeed the case ?

This is essentially how Israel was created. The Zionist movement which IIRC began in the late 1800's and early 1900's in the UK and US decided that they would emigrate to a particular corner of the earth and declare that land as their own country. IIRC they mooted a number of options and settled on what is now Israel. They then began mass migration into the region, swelling the moderately small native Jewish population, with the stated intent of declaring the land their own state.

If, say, a group of Saudis started buying up land in Washington DC and started moving hundreds of thousands of Saudis into DC - against the law when required and using force if needed and then declared that DC was their country - would the US be justified in being a bit pissed?

however, if isreal is taking land to stop the war and death against their people, that's called war, a defensive war, self defense. isreali especially has the right to self defense when the middle east trying to destroy them for at least 30 years now.

Given Israel is hell-bent on putting people into settlements in the space between 1967 and the wall they are building it is laughable that they claim that are trying to create a buffer zone.

You might note that moo-cow, above, is a member of the Settler movement and has stated that he believes that all the land up to Jordan is/should be part of Israel and his movement is actively working to settle people in the West Bank to justify claiming as much land as possible for the Israeli state. An action that Palestinians get a bit tetchy about.

this is NOT my quote, u altered the bottom part of it. that's defamation and/or plagerism. i demand u or a moderator corrects this.

I don't think anyone but you thinks I am trying to claim you said those words, just pointing that many of the actions of the Palestinians you describe as being evil have also been committed by Israel, or very close equivalents and that you can swap "Israel" for "Palestine" and still have a perfectly accurate quote.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

your view is not matching reality

reality or fact:

isreali's home has been the middle east just as long if not longer than the arabs-muslims. in fact, arabs-muslims probably didnt exist (as far as i know) during mesopotamia. during mesopotamia, there was Babylon, Ur, and Sumer city-states ONLY in the middle east. within babylon at least there was the jewish people. though they never had their own city-state home. than babylon kicked them out and they went over to egypt. where they were brutalized and ensalved. then they fled "the religiously famous moses and parting of red sea". and they went back to the middle east and created their 12-13 tribes. i think than one of these tribes would break off from abraham family and become what would be the arabs and mecca and muhamaed prophet (if there's any mistakes, arabs, please post the corections, and i'll fix it).

the middle east is the cradle of much of civilization. it belongs and is home to many many types of people. jewish people do NOT "own" all of the middle east. nor do arabs "own" all of the middle east. its home to ALL 3 major religions and its people. home to ottoman turks and persians and palaistinians too. the middle east doesn't belong to any one group of people. its the home to many groups of people and they ALL have right to live at-in their home of the middle east. THE problem is that even in 2009 they still haven't grown up and learn to live together peacefully.

the STATE of isreal CAME INTO EXISTANCE, as part of the surrender of germany to the allies at the end of ww2 and its holocaust (~1945 and a few years after). NOT what erroneous stuff u said.

read and study history, your comments are flat out blatantly wrong and erroneous.

opinions and views is perfectly ligitimate,

but not a fake dilusion of history, facts, and reality. that is not acceptible. it is misinformation. spew of lies. unacceptible.

and the holocaust DID happen, the world was right to finally give the jewish people an official home back in their real home of the middle east. now if only arabs would live peacefully.

i mean yes, isrealis and arabs have obviously split now, but they are actually all 1 big family. both isrealis and arabs ARE ALL sons and daughters of Abraham. if only abraham's children would grow up and stop fighting amongst themselves.... sighs....
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there is NO equivalence between the middle east and the rest of the modern world, be it isreal or U.S. or whoever.

the closest equivalnce to the middle east and arabs is africa and africans (in africa)

it makes me sad that there's such people who truly believe that isrealis are equivalent to arabs-muslims-terrorists.

it makes me sad that thre's people who are unable or don't wanna see the monstrous evil that some people carry out in behavior, actions, or mindset. be they a domestic criminal or world criminal (terrorist).

actions of isreal and middle east as being equivalent is irrefutably absurd and crazy.
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as to the settlement conflict,

i know NOTHING about this. it wouldn't surpise me if isreali's are being abusive and i completely condemn them if they are and if the palistinians are being abusive, i condemn them too if they are. wrong is wrong.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

your view is not matching reality

the STATE of isreal CAME INTO EXISTANCE, as part of the surrender of germany to the allies at the end of ww2 and its holocaust (~1945 and a few years after). NOT what erroneous stuff u said.

read and study history, your comments are flat out blatantly wrong and erroneous.

opinions and views is perfectly ligitimate, but not a fake dilusion of history, facts, and reality.

You are incorrect.

There is the issue that over 1000 years ago the land that is now Israel was controlled by Jewish people, however I note that you are in the US. Unless you're Native American or in the process of signing your property over to native groups I'm going to call bull**** on your beliefs of rights of people to take land that some of their ancestors might have owned over 1000 years ago.

For the rest - what I stated is generally true. Wiki has it's faults, but you might like to do some reading rather than base your opinions off completely made up stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorialism

Nobody here is denying the Holocaust, however regarding your statement

and the holocaust DID happen, the world was right to finally give the jewish people an official home back in their home of the middle east. now if only arabs would live peacefully.

You might like to note a few quotes from Ben Gurion, one of the founders of Israel and Israels first Prime Minister:

""If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?""

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."

See here http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion for more.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

i agree actually with most of this post, now your making sense (to me anyways)

as to what the english colonists (and other europeans like the spanish in west NA, "central"A, and SA with the aztecs and incas and west NA natives) and americans (U.S. or "soon" to be U.S. people) did to the natives,

WAS GENOCIDE. we OWE native americans and blacks A LOT. individually, i did not genocide naitive americans or enslaved blacks, but as i white person i am responsible for the actions of other white people even in the past and as i am an american (U.S.), i'm repsonsible for actions of other americans (U.S.) even in the past.

as an american (U.S.) and a human being i am ASHAMED and disgusted and angry at what we did to native americans and blacks in the past and some of us still do-treat even today. it was wrong and it is wrong. two very very very dark times in our history. that must always be remembered, taught, and stigmatized so we learn from these mistakes and don't do again...right (sarcasm)....japanese internment camps due to war with japan in ww2 and present day fear and abuse of arabs or arab-americans due to terrorism, hostility towards mexicans-hispanics due to illegal immigration, etc...maybe some day we and all humans will learn from history....anyways.....

we (americans-U.S.) DO have our own HUGE "FAULTS" (native americans and slavery and our current torture and abuse of prisoners in our fight against terrorists to name a few. well, i don't think anymore, since in about week we have a new president, obama)

maybe i'm the only american who openly ommits (man, my grammer is bad...*ADMITS*, not ommits: leave out) our faults, not all of us americans are completely arrogant

though technically, the americas (north america=NA, "central" america="central"A, south america=SA) is really fascinating. the americas actually has NO native humans. even "native" americans are actually immigrants from asia during the ice age, just as white americans (U.S.) were immigrants from europe during columbus and the age of exploration.

though even more techincally, u can say, that the entire earth has NO native humans, except south africa where genecists say (science-wise) all humans trace back to. the mother (science "eve") of all of humanity was in south africa according to dna-genes.

this doesnt answer the race debate and i definately don't wanna get into it.

were these south africa original humans "black" or "white" or "asian" ? this we don't know. so let's not get into any race debate.

anyways (i'm getting way off topic. i'm interested in many things), there's also some things that i disagre with:

isreali's didnt take the land. the EUROPEAN POWERS (and america-U.S) (at end of ww2) GAVE isreal the land in the middle east. if the arabs wanna be mad they should be mad at the europeon powers, not the jewish people.

though i must point out again, that the middle east IS the jewish people's land and home. just as IT IS the arabs' land and home.

the settlement conflict is another issue, and there may well be abuses by isreal with it.

u and the isreali guy u quoted, are right, all of the european abuses of jewish people is NOT the arabs' doing or fault. they are arabs not europeans. however, NOW they are abusing the jewish people, jsut as europeans had done in europe.

the jewish people DO have a right to be in the middle east. the european powers and america got that part correct. the problem is the arabs need to understand this. the middle east is as much the jewish people's home as it is the arabs.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

isreali's didnt take the land. the EUROPEAN POWERS (and america-U.S) (at end of ww2) GAVE isreal the land in the middle east. if the arabs wanna be mad they should be mad at the europeon powers, not the jewish people.

They gave it to them, in part, because so many of them had migrated there with the intent of taking the land and creating their own state. As I said - if a large group of Saudis started buying up land in Washington DC and installing Saudi people in DC - by force if required - would they have the right to declare DC to be their own country?

u and the isreali guy u quoted, are right, all of the european abuses of jewish people is NOT the arabs' doing or fault. they are arabs not europeans. however, NOW they are abusing the jewish people, jsut as europeans had done in europe.

The Palestinians are kept in pretty much abject poverty by both Israel and their own leaders. Israel controls huge aspects of life in both the West Bank and Gaza and is in the process of annexing as much of the West Bank as they can justify - many people would view this as Israel abusing the Palestinians.

the jewish people DO have a right to be in the middle east.

Why?

I'm not saying that they should leave, there are now facts on the ground that cannot be undone (though Israels continued attempts to create further facts on the ground aren't exactly helping the peace process) without huge human rights abuses. The state is there and should continue to be there, but what you seem to be saying is that the state should continue to be there because it is Jewish - and I ask why?

Incidentally - and this is a general question - why is Judaism regarded as a major religion? I mean - it's got something like 14,000,000 supporters?
~1% of the worlds Muslim population, about 0.5% of the worlds Christian population, about 1% of the worlds Hindu population, about 3% of the Traditional Chinese and Buddhist populations (each), about 1% of the non-religious population and about 4% of the 'primial' religious population...

I mean it's size is notable compared to druze, ba'hai and the sikh population... but "Major"?

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

PFSS' Quote:
the jewish people DO have a right to be in the middle east.

Why?
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the 6,000 year history of the middle east being their (jewish people's) home.

babylon (is the oldest dated human civilization, going to either 4,000 bc or 12,000 bc, though let's jsut keep it simple with the 4,000 bc date. i could go into the 12,000 bc and explain it all but that would take up an entire new thread, so let's ignore the 12,000 and jsut stick with 4,000)

the jewish people existed during the babylon city-state in mesopotamia (modern middle east). ACCORDING TO, AT LEAST, THE BIBLE. or the old part of the bible, forgot the name for it at the moment, old testament!!! thats it!yay remembered!! proud of myself!!! i'm very absent minded!!

so take 2000 AD - (-4000 BC) = 2000 + 4000 = 6000 year history of that being their home.

i'm not sure when the arabs first appeared, in mecca and muhamed. i'll let some one else who knows, adress this. well actually the ancestor of arabs and jewish people IS abraham (but abraham, i think though i could be completely wrong, was after the babylon period) as is said in both the bible and koran. both jewish people and arab people are children of abraham, but i don't know if arabs wanna be mixed in with with ancestors of jewish people and the arab people, during babylon. i'll let them decide. if they do, than they too have a 6000 year history of the middle east also being their (arabs) home as well.

and of course this gets into the science of ancestry-genes, which i don't know anything about. i don't even know if the modern jewish people are the same gene'd as the "jewish people" in babylon as is said in bible. let alone bringing the modern arabs and their ancestry-genes into it as well. i mean NO disrepect to either jewish people or arabs. trying to tread as lightly and carefully as i can. i mean NO disrepect to either jewish people or arabs.
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why is Judaism regarded as a major religion? -PFSS

your right in terms of numbers, its not that popular.

HOWEVER, it is the "father" religion of both cristianity and islam

judiasm split into christianity-catholicism
judiasm split into islam

jewish people-religion->abraham-> christian-catholic people-religions AND arabs-muslims people-religion

judiasm-jewish poeple's god is yewah (i think) (very un-involved in humanity)

christianity-christians-catholics changed "yewah" into God (and he is much more "personal" or involved in humanity. christ and salvation and all that)

islam-arabs-muslims changed "yewah" into Allah (and i'm not sure if he is personal and involved in humanity or not. have to ask an arab)

take this very very generally, i know both christian-catholics and arabs-muslims probably don't agree with me saying that judiasm-jewish people split into what would be islam and chrsitanity-catholic,

if this is flat out incorrect to connect christianity-catholicism and islam to judiasm, i apolize to all and will take this out from my post.
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i'm not religious, i don't beleive in a "religious god", but i do have some knowledge of the religions (hopefully correct) and i certainly understand that they are culture and thus very important to humanity, though i don't beleive in the "faith" of religions itself.

for please forgive any mistakes or ignorance to any religion or outlook i may have on all and any of them. if i'm wrong about anything, inform me, and i'll imedaitely corect my mistakes.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

if u choose or even just let hitler/hamas/osama bin laden/jim kim ill/bush/saddam/stalin/etc.. be your leader you are agreeing, supporting, and siding with it, and ARE JUST AS GUILTY AS THEY ARE.

What are you, then, personally, doing to prevent the attacks of Hamas on the Israel? Remember, if omission is an act, and if you're not helping (ranting on a ten-year old game's OTF is not helping) you're choosing not to do anything for them. Does that mean that when IMI can arrange the time for it, they can come for you next? Is there some limit of geographical proximity, or can you be forgiven if you don't have the resources to act in a fashion that is morally correct?

I agree it's a hard-to-define line we're talking here when we're talking where the personal responsibility ends. It just seems that for the tastes of many here (at least Saro and Moo I know for sure, assuming many others) you have thrown it very, very far.

actually there's quite a few protest movements that ARE even now in my own U.S., even dressing like terorists.... actually using exact language of calling for the destruction of a country-people, aka genocide.

Yes, but the keyword was "here". None of those protest movements operate from diii's OTF. moo-cow assumed this forum to be full to the brim with people who are happy at the prospect of Israel being destroyed.

freedom of speech-expression doesn't mean total freedom....supporting, aiding, or embeding a criminal or worse enemy of the state is a serious crime that not even freedom of speech/expression would protect if it had a vioce lol.

Where do we draw the line, then? There was a controversial case this fall here - a guy flew the Nazi standard on his balcony, and some other guy was dismayed by his choice of aesthetics, so the guy two climbed up to the balcony and tore the standard down. Clearly, the guy one had done nothing illegal and the guy two was sued for invasion of domestic premises.

Not all - like you - saw how cut and dried it was, though.

if isreal is fighting ghosts...i'm scared because they are pretty real and i thoguht ghosts weren't real...

While moo-cow is an Israelite, he is not Israel. Furthermore, the guys he might've had to physically fight are in all probability not on these forums. I'd agree he's fighting a relatively justified fight back home, but I am saying his fight is not with the forumites posting here.

i am STILL WAITING for the U.N., the security council, and the world itself to tell the middle east to STOP blowing up-murdering innocent poeple in isreali AND the rest of the world, like the U.S. (9-11), the train-subway bombings (madrid, spain), the busses (in london, britain), the wedding cermeony (?, jordan), the bombing and terorrism-murder (indonesia), the assassinations of politcal figures like abuto (whatever her name) (in pakistan? or palistin. i forgot which one. it been awhile), etc....

Like PFSS already told you, they've told them to stop. I'm waiting for them to do something, because talk is cheap.

As to your comments about the Arab people, they have been known to be around before Mohammed. You make a historical mistake in equating Islam and the Arabs (you are, however, correct that they are rather interchangable nowadays).

"Arab" is defined independently of religious identity, and pre-dates the rise of Islam, with historically attested Arab Christian kingdoms and Arab Jews. The earliest documented use of the word "Arab" as defining a group of people dates from the 9th century BCE.[14] Islamized but non-Arabized peoples, and therefore the majority of the world's Muslims, do not form part of the Arab World but comprise what is the geographically larger and diverse Muslim World.

The following sentences of the Wiki are a good read as well - they tell you how "an Arab" can be genealogical, linguistic or a political term, and how it's all a one big mess. You might want to check it out.

For the rest - what I stated is generally true. Wiki has it's faults, but you might like to do some reading rather than base your opinions off completely made up stuff.

It's not like he made that up himself, the theory of the Arabs being mostly some sort of spawn of Abraham (they'd be looking mainly at Ismael, I guess) is not exactly a new one. How much worth that idea has is another thing entirely. Even so, the Islam reveres Abraham as a patriarch as well, so at least the idea has some acceptance.

Ah, here is ze Wiki.

Both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of northern Arab people.[1]

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I thought I told you I'm a Nationalist voter, though.

I honestly don't recall.

They fought Fatah.

Wrong. This is like claiming that the loons in the Northwestern U.S. or the KKK are only fighting the American-Zionist conspiracy and not true insurrectionists. Pretending to only be fighting a particular portion of the legal & recognized government doesn't wash.

So international conflicts are conflicts, but intranational are not? Civil wars are not wars? I don't know where you're going with this.

The same place I would have were we to discuss Afghanistan. Both Hamas and the Talibs are criminal organizations with religious pretenses - you can project their overthrow of a legitimate government as a civil war, but that certainly doesn't mean it qualifies as an <international> conflict.

They're the de facto power there - it's not like there are any other people to install the police. Apparently, you'd accept no other people than the Israelites to do that, since it's Israel territory. If Fatah can do it, why can't Hamas?

So you'd have the Mafia patrol Chicago, and the Yakuza hand out parking tickets in Tokyo? Senseless. And the reason they remain in power is that the UN and Europe continue to provide them life support - the same life support Ill condemns Israel for curtailing.

Especially the last one, in conjunction to what you were replying to, seemed to imply you don't really care if the Israeli forces hit the 6% that doesn't want them dead. If that's not what you meant, please elaborate.

What I mean is that they have brought it upon themselves, and the fact that Hamas is eager to put its own benefactors in the line of fire is pretty much just desserts. We're not just talking about hiding in mosques, masquerading as doctors, and using ambulances to transport troops and equipment. We're talking about the deliberate murder of "hosts" in order to blame the deaths on Israel.

Just to be sure: are you referring to the Norwegian Communists or Hamas to be the proven liars?

Hamas, of course, with reference to "Pallywood", the Al-Dura hoax, and the falsified Jenin "massacre".

I'm not terribly interested in Norwegian commies, since I don't know that they've slaughtered scores of Americans or civilians. Have they?

You'd do better job at quoting Mads, if you wanted to show that. I'd agree it wouldn't be a hard feat.

True; it was mostly for use as a jibe at how laughable Ill was for quoting such a ludicrous source. I mean, y'all scream from the rooftops when I quote from Frontpage, but the material is accurate enough, unlike this filthy bugger.

By the way, I totally agree that calling for Medecines Sans Frontieres (I knew I could count on you to hate on a both Leftist and French originated organisation) to pick sides in a fight like this shows what a partisan prick he is, even if he would be right about the Palestinians suffering.

Boo-yah! I <like> that particular group, despite their bleeding-heartedness. They have far better cred than Amnesty International as far as I'm concerned, because they actually put their money where their mouth is (so to speak).

Why?

Because they have the strongest historical claim to the area, for starters. Though the statement would be more properly narrowed down as something like "Judea", since "Middle East" isn't as solid a geographic term. I think I may have already cited this, and there's a complete disregard for the fact that the contemporary "Palestinians" at the time of the foundation (as in, the ones who weren't bedouin) would have considered themselves Syrians. Incidentally, I wouldn't trust Wiki's numbers on the population of "Palestine", particularly since they're anonymously cited.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

What are you, then, personally, doing to prevent the attacks of Hamas on the Israel? Remember, if omission is an act, and if you're not helping (ranting on a ten-year old game's OTF is not helping) you're choosing not to do anything for them. Does that mean that when IMI can arrange the time for it, they can come for you next? Is there some limit of geographical proximity, or can you be forgiven if you don't have the resources to act in a fashion that is morally correct? -wildberry
-------------------------
if i could be immune to injury and death, i'd volunteer immediately for military service, i'm scared not of death, but i am of dying. i can't stop thinking about walking down or driving down a road and stepping on a landmine or IED and losing half my body, or for that matter just getting your head shot off by a conventional gun-bullet danger of war. it scares the beejeeeves (i jsut wanted to use this really old word) out of me.

yes, i'm aware of the arguement that i can be jsut as excruciating injured or killed by getting in my car and going for a drive. but for some reason, i can tune out the danger of a car, but not of joining the military and it's war dangers. don't ask why. i don't understand why myself.

whether or not cowardice is a valid excuss or not, you are right. i am NOT doing anything either and i'm just as guilty as everyone else. SHAME on all of us (including myself) for not standing up to wrong do'ers and letting them do and continue to do wrong.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do we draw the line, then? There was a controversial case this fall here - a guy flew the Nazi standard on his balcony, and some other guy was dismayed by his choice of aesthetics, so the guy two climbed up to the balcony and tore the standard down. Clearly, the guy one had done nothing illegal and the guy two was sued for invasion of domestic premises.

Not all - like you - saw how cut and dried it was, though.

-wildberry
-------------------------
no idea, and if it sounded like i knew where that line was, than my mistake in how i wrote-typed it. my bad.

that's why we have courts...let the judges and lawyers try to figure out or argue over where that line should be... lol

i do have some personal opinions but they are purely personal-moral not legal expertise

.. lets see...using your posted case, this is how i would judge it:

i actually completely agree with the decision, and this is why:

first of all nazi is merely a political party. it was only than tainted and twisted by hitler and his SS.

if it was a flag with the face of hitler that glorified and celebrated him..that i might have objection to, though i probably not consider it threatening and exceeding the freedom of speech/expresion.

glorying an evil person is one thing, we (U.S.) think stalin was evil, but many russians loved-love him. and somehow i think they can be right...i know that sounds weird...oh well...

but actually speaking and praising criminal acts or murder (like actually verbally calling for the destruction of isreal and it's people-race), thats far more serious to me and in my view exceeds the protection of freedom of speech/expression

i heard some guy on tv, and i agree with it-this: the holocaust in germany first began as racial slurs and insults and then ultimately escalated into the death camps, so.....

i'd say of whether it (the act of speech or expression) has the chance or possibility of causing escalation to much more serious acts should be a big factor in the judgment of it in a court of law.

the person going onto another property and destroying that property by itself is a crime so he is guilty (unless the other person was doing something i'd deem un-acceptible, but than that also gets into vigilantism vs hoping the police will act or if they do act, act in time... debate)

 

[Galabab]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

A short correction on history as far as i know.

Israelits and Arabs and Persians and Mamluks and what not are all "semits" its a huge family or you could call it race. Thats where antisemitism comes from though the term is technicly uncorrect, as antisemitism only describes hate towards israelits who were common in europe.

Now about israeli invasion of palestine. Yes, a lot of jews immigrated there. They got the land from britain which doesnt really matter to palestinians.
So the question is who ordered them to get lost? Or maybe it was like the jews came and sat in palestinians gardens and ate food from palestinian tables?
Its not like this. There was NO official order for the palestinians on "israeli-defined" lands to move away. So what happened? The palestinians fled. There WERE zionist illigal organsizations working yes. They DID massacre palestinians. BUT the army and the state didnt allow it and it only went on in the early weaks if not days of proclamation of Israel.
The vast majority of palestines fled due to gossips about jews. Due to religios xenophobia or gossips that jews would slaughter everyone. In fact all the palestinians were welcomed to stay and become full citizans of Israel. But it was like a spit in the face for proud muslim people, so they decided to move away.
Many of them went to arab emirates but were severly hostiled by their "brothers" in religion and turned back. The palestinian part of land was basicly just as good as Israels so they just settled there. There was enough room as there were not more than 1 million palestine refugees. And it went relativly calm for some years. Palestines got their normal old live back running and ISrael?

Israel was flourishing. Rich jews from all over the world brought money with them. Scientific elite from akowledged jewish intellectuals combined with the euphoria of jewish people of finally having a land to call their own made a miraculous change to the landscape. The desert was irrigated and brought rich harvest. A modern infrastructure arose, hunderds of modern factories established a strong economy. The cities grew and the states money income soon overcame its expenses.

Now what do palestinians want now? Guess what, they want all the jews dead and their now flourishing land, which they left in such a haste is suddely their holy, beloved home ...

 

[vdzele]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Ron Paul has something to say.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Hegemon, I was surprised to see a poster who mentions a moral credo and admits not to be able to follow it. I don't know if you're a Christian, but being an admitted sinner - especially guilty of something that you've just mentioned to be deserving of death - is not a thing I see often in a world where even the least error is hard to admit for people. I really like seeing someone who isn't above his own morals or try to bend them to circumstance. My hat's off to you.

Now what do palestinians want now? Guess what, they want all the jews dead and their now flourishing land, which they left in such a haste is suddely their holy, beloved home ...

That was pretty astutely written, and for the larger part - with the notable exception of the conclusion - correct. However, claiming that the Palestinians (or indeed, other Arabs) attached no previous meaning to Al-Aqsa before they saw Israel flourishing is just deluding oneself.

I honestly don't recall.
Wrong. This is like claiming that the loons in the Northwestern U.S. or the KKK are only fighting the American-Zionist conspiracy and not true insurrectionists. Pretending to only be fighting a particular portion of the legal & recognized government doesn't wash.

Well, Fatah formed the government they were fighting. What, you want me to list every MP Hamas didn't like?

The same place I would have were we to discuss Afghanistan. Both Hamas and the Talibs are criminal organizations with religious pretenses - you can project their overthrow of a legitimate government as a civil war, but that certainly doesn't mean it qualifies as an <international> conflict.

Not being international conflict doesn't stop a conflict from being conflict. You're not telling me there's no conflict in Afghanistan, are you?

So you'd have the Mafia patrol Chicago, and the Yakuza hand out parking tickets in Tokyo? Senseless. And the reason they remain in power is that the UN and Europe continue to provide them life support - the same life support Ill condemns Israel for curtailing.

If the either U.S. or Japan was too weak to do it themselves, I'd probably rather have organisation by gangsters than all-out riots. But that's not the point - the point is that if the federal funding was cut, and the police had fled, and Tetsuo Yakuza decided to pick up the badge to go with his gun and decided to call himself a police and did a policing job, he'd probably be as close to one as the place would see in a while.

And oh, the Israel foreign ministry disagrees with you as to where the Hamas money is mainly coming from. At least they include the US, too.

What I mean is that they have brought it upon themselves, and the fact that Hamas is eager to put its own benefactors in the line of fire is pretty much just desserts. We're not just talking about hiding in mosques, masquerading as doctors, and using ambulances to transport troops and equipment. We're talking about the deliberate murder of "hosts" in order to blame the deaths on Israel.

Have you got investigated cases as to the latter sentence? I would prefer one done by an international team, as Israel has a vested interest here. I don't for a second doubt it beyond Hamas, but I would like to see you back up that claim. If no for other reason, then so that all can see for real what Hamas is made of.

I'm not terribly interested in Norwegian commies, since I don't know that they've slaughtered scores of Americans or civilians. Have they?

I like how American is mutually exclusive with civilian there by being a logical binary.

No, they didn't, but they did kill some Jerries 65 years back, unlike most of the other Norwegians.

Boo-yah! I <like> that particular group, despite their bleeding-heartedness. They have far better cred than Amnesty International as far as I'm concerned, because they actually put their money where their mouth is (so to speak).

I didn't suspect that of you, but in retrospect I should've. You'd be a man to appreciate someone who puts his nuts to the sand, even if he doesn't agree with you. Unless, of course, we're talking ragheads.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

By PFSS' logic, Americans can kill the kids of slaves. Their forefathers aren't from here, and they're taking over the land. That's all it takes to think it's ok to kill them, right?

 

[Galabab]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

He would argue that they came by forein force and jews did not.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

It's not like they showed up 2 days ago. The median age in Israel is 28.9. Over a quarter of Israelis are under 15. (according to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html)

Looks to me like most of the Israelis have lived there their entire lives.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

By PFSS' logic, Americans can kill the kids of slaves. Their forefathers aren't from here, and they're taking over the land. That's all it takes to think it's ok to kill them, right?

1. I am not advocating the killing of anyone, just pointing out that the Palestinians objections to the Jewish state are not merely "ZOMG WE HATE THE JOOZ!!11uno!!1" but are in many cases founded on events that anyone anywhere would be pissed off about.

2. I am not advocating the destruction of Israel, as I said - it's there and without committing another crime against humanity it will stay there, though as I said - Israeli groups working to create further facts on the ground in the West Bank are not exactly helping the peace process.

3. Taking people against their will from their home nation and bringing them into your country is rather different to organizing a group of people from your nation/ethnic group to go into another nation to take land from that nation.

4. By the logic of those who agree with the way Israel was created - people buying up land and declaring the nation theirs - if the African Americans people in Washington DC decided to declare DC to be their own state, a haven for African Americans the US would be the bad guys if they tried to prevent the states formation. Hell - that is even more reasonable then the way Israel was created as the people are justifiably already there, not migrating into the area with the intention of taking it.

It's not like they showed up 2 days ago. The median age in Israel is 28.9. Over a quarter of Israelis are under 15. (according to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html)

Looks to me like most of the Israelis have lived there their entire lives.

Doesn't that site also indicate that ~40% of the population was born overseas?