Israel and its neightbors are at it again

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

WildBerry wake up bro, its a goddamn WAR!
War is not a free ticket to everything. It, as peacetime, has laws concerning it, and you just made one up.

The rest doesn't make enough sense to be dignified with an answer. If you live in a country the leadership of which other people don't like, the fire and brimstone rained upon you is your own fault? Please.



 

moo-cow

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

You do have to admit that there has been, and still is, a fair portion of the Jewish population who aren't all that interested in co-existence - you only need to look to the settler movement and it's supporters to see examples of people who have no intention of a two state solution or peaceful co-existence.
I am part of the "settler movement."



 

PFSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I am part of the "settler movement."
Wow! How on earth do you justify your movement with the idea of peaceful co-existence? What do you expect from the Palestinians in order to live peacefully with them?

Where do you believe Israel ends and Not-Israel begins? Which side of the line are you currently on?


 

moo-cow

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Efrat sits on the politically-incorrect side of the Green Line. I believe we are about 15km south of southern Jerusalem and 5-10km south of Bethlehem. We are also on the "Israel side" of the fence route, inside the area known as 1967+. The caravan I live in is about 1 km from the proposed fence route. I can see the fence (wall at that point) every time I head north to Jerusalem as the new road heads just east of Bethlehem and affords security. The route here used to go through Bethlehem (for somewhere between 200 and 2500 years) but the Arabs were throwing rocks at cars. In response Israel built walls on either side of the road, Arabs threw rocks over the tops. In response Israel spent something like $2billion to move the road and build two tunnels.

Efrat is part of an area known as Gush Etzion which was purchased (save some Arab villages) and partially settled prior to 1948. My caravan is just south of Efrat. Due east of our fenced in community is a blocked in area between settlements and roads (half kilometer square maybe?) of Jewish owned land that we let the Arab squatters stay squatting on and farming in an attempt to maintain cordgial relations with them. The Jordanians did not take the land by right of conquest and resell it, probably because no one wanted to lay a claim to it that would include taxes. When the area was retaken in 1967 settlements were soon rebuilt on the areas of setlements destroyed by the Jordanians and on other land with pre-existing deeds. Overall this area is quiet, ith only 2 or 3 hostile villages between Bethlehem and Hebron.

How do I justify myself? We owned the land previously or it was empty. Some of the guys who have been here 20 years or so tell that they see the Arab villages around here grow with recent arrivals, most of whom will swear that their famiies have been here for generations. The makeup of most of the Arabs in the Gaza strip are of Moroccan descent. For the hundreds of years between the Crusaders being forced out and the Ottomans losing the land to the Brittish it remained sparcely populated. Only when the Jews returned and started improving the land did Arabs from neighboring countries move in also. The Arabs made no move to occupy the land under the Brittish or under the Jordanians.

What do I expect from them peace-wise? Complete peace. Almost every Jewish car in this area has rock-proof plastic windows. Every Jewish settlement with one exception here has a fence around it, all have regular army or private companies doing 24 hour security on the perimeters. All have a gate and guardbooth at the entrances. The few times I've driven through Arab villages (several straddle roads) I've noticed no fence, no spotlights, nobody doing security. I told my parents that if I got a bicycle here and I needed to use it for moving between settlements I would choose a gun over a helmet for protection. I want to be afraid of drunk drivers and not of terrorists infiltrating settlements so they can kill me. I want them to live here and be the neighbor you call when you lock yourself out of your house, not the neighbor who sees you locked out and tries to shoot you.

The Israel/not Israel thing is tricky. I really, truely, want to say that the Brittish divided Palestine into two, the Arabs got Jordan and we get from the Jordan river to the Mediteranian, but I know its untennable and its not going to happen. I also want to say that if a two-state solution means that Jews have to leave their homes and move into Israel proper then Israel should be able to get rid of their Arabs, but we're not the ones facing death if we don't flee if we were to fall out on the wrong side of the border and the International "community" would never allow us equality in that eventuality or protection if we wanted to stay. For the purposes of cartography I'd call East of the Jordan river, minus Gaza, Israel. How much would I like to keep in the event of a two-state solution? All of Jerusalem minus some of the Arab East Jerusalem areas. The area I am in currently with the road down to Qiryat Arba and a 1km circle around The Cave of Patriarchs. I have some friends that live between Hebron and Be'er Sheva who I know would like to keep their homes and don't have any neighbors for almost 10 miles.
Basically my best case scenario is two countries, one land, no borders. We administer Jewish Settlements, towns and cities, they administer Arab ones. Cities mixed enough get a plebicide. Certain predetermined roads and areas get their upkeep taken directly from International Aid already flowing to Israel and the Palestinians. Remaining undeveloped land gets divided 50/50.

I spent about an hour writing this, I'll take another look later to see if I missed anything.
 

Dirty_Zulu

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Good reading.

However the two countries and no border concept would never work. One group of people is certainly more advanced than other and the other has...how shall I put it-- more primal?

The Arabs were in Spain for hundreds years intermixed with the Spaniards. But they remain segregated and eventually kicked out the Muslims. Such a long history of resentment may never change.

We have California is a strange example. We got Mexifornians who we consider are basically second rate citizens who flip burgers, mow the lawn, and other menial jobs.
 

Galabab

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

The makeup of most of the Arabs in the Gaza strip are of Moroccan descent. For the hundreds of years between the Crusaders being forced out and the Ottomans losing the land to the Brittish it remained sparcely populated. Only when the Jews returned and started improving the land did Arabs from neighboring countries move in also. The Arabs made no move to occupy the land under the Brittish or under the Jordanians.
thats what i was thinking too.


 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Good reading.
It indeed was.

Only when the Jews returned and started improving the land did Arabs from neighboring countries move in also. The Arabs made no move to occupy the land under the Brittish or under the Jordanians.
As long as the Palestinian Arabs were considered faithful subjects by their local rulers in stead of being the hunted-down minority which they later became and they could till their parcel of land for less a bother (for indeed, the Promised Land promised only hard work to begin with), why would they have bothered?

Thanks for the neutral, dispassionate and well-disserted account. One rarely gets to see these in these threads, and they're all the more admirable if the writer is up to his neck in the topic.



 

PlagueBearer

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I figure: the Palestinian people voted Hamas into office, knowing full well that Hamas likes to shell Israel from residential areas. They know that Israel responds to these shellings with military force.

Basically, the checked off "Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!" at the ballot box, so my sympathy is somewhat muted. At least before they could claim is was just a minority faction.

If Palestine really wants to just try to see which civilization wins an all out war, I say we just watch.
 

PFSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

How do I justify myself? We owned the land previously or it was empty. Some of the guys who have been here 20 years or so tell that they see the Arab villages around here grow with recent arrivals, most of whom will swear that their famiies have been here for generations. The makeup of most of the Arabs in the Gaza strip are of Moroccan descent. For the hundreds of years between the Crusaders being forced out and the Ottomans losing the land to the Brittish it remained sparcely populated. Only when the Jews returned and started improving the land did Arabs from neighboring countries move in also. The Arabs made no move to occupy the land under the Brittish or under the Jordanians.
If your ancestors did purchase the land legitimately then I agree you have full rights to live there, however buying land does not normally let you declare that land for your home country (I'm sure you can agree with this principle as I suspect you do not believe that Palestinian ownership of East Jerusalem entitles Palestinians to claim it as part of their nation, and it also seems you do not believe that Palestinian ownership of Land between 1967 and Jordan entitles them to claim that land as Palestine. Also it's generally it's considered bad form to declare land that is not yours as not being sufficiently utilized for the previous owners to lay claim to it - though since you believe that the land is/was Israel anyway I don't think you'd agree with that point.

What do I expect from them peace-wise? Complete peace.
Sorry - I should have been more clear, you are part of a movement whose ultimate goal is to extend the borders of Israel as far as possible, up to the border with Jordan (is that a fair assessment?). What action from the Arab population in the West Bank (I'm defining that as everything outside the 1967 borders) do you expect in order for there to be peace? For them to pack up and leave? Or for them to stay but move on if their land is not sufficiently utilized and live without a democratic voice? (I'm assuming you have no intention of a one-state solution where the Arab population in the West Bank or Gaza are included in the democratic process)

Almost every Jewish car in this area has rock-proof plastic windows. Every Jewish settlement with one exception here has a fence around it, all have regular army or private companies doing 24 hour security on the perimeters. All have a gate and guardbooth at the entrances. The few times I've driven through Arab villages (several straddle roads) I've noticed no fence, no spotlights, nobody doing security.
Given that you are essentially a part of what the Arab folks outside 1967 see to be an invading force with a stated goal of taking as much land from them as possible, what response from the Arab population do you expect?

Sorry to rag on you a bit, I appreciate you went to some effort to produce a level and dispassionate description, and I realize this issue is one that often leads to escalated language.


 
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llad12

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

IGenerally I discount the Brittish media, based on the BBC, as being as pro-Palestinian as the Arabic media.
:scratchchin:

It's so easy to attack the source and simply write-off articles that don't fit your political viewpoints.

----------

Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor in Gaza, condemns Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians.

The media is CBS news:




Comments?


Have a nice day,

Llad



 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I figure: the Palestinian people voted Hamas into office, knowing full well that Hamas likes to shell Israel from residential areas. They know that Israel responds to these shellings with military force.

Basically, the checked off "Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!" at the ballot box, so my sympathy is somewhat muted. At least before they could claim is was just a minority faction.

If Palestine really wants to just try to see which civilization wins an all out war, I say we just watch.
That logic - the one of holding the people collectively responsible for the decisions their political leadership takes, and for the resulting actions of violence directed at the said leadership to discourage it - justifies 9/11. Sure you want to go down that road?



 

Galabab

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

@llad12:
So do you believe Israelis seek for children with some kind of night vision and then like "hey i see more children! Fire fire!"
lol sorry its stupid. I give you a more logical answer.
It is palsestinians' goal to make Israel look as bad as possible. Its the only thing they have left. They move the families and children close to their fire bases. They position MGs and rocket launchers in moshees and kindergardens.
80% are women and children lol this says it all. Even if Israel would just blindly fire into the city it wouldnt be like this.
It is a common and well known move by Hamaz to use civilians as living shields.

@WildBerry:
Are you familiar with Sartre? He fought in the resistance. He believed that every mans DUTY is to fight for the right thing. If you dont, you are responsible for every wrongdoing. Thats the ethic essense of Existentialism. If they are tolerating their faschist leadership, than they deserve to die (in my eyes they fail to be men).


To all:
Do you think it would be proper to simplify this whole problem as following?
And please also answer.

Imagine yourself with your family having a rocket launcher and standing on a roof.
Underneath the roof there is a crowd of lets say 100 people. You know that one of them is going to shoot one of you with a sniper rifle.
Now would you:
A. Shoot your rocket to kill all 99 innocent people along with one vilian (given its strong enough..)
B. Let one of you be killed becouse of your morality.
 

SaroDarksbane

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Obama just can't catch a break.
Article said:
The 10-minute message also address Muslims worldwide, claiming that Obama was portrayed as "the savior who will come and change American policy" during the U.S. election but is now "killing your brothers and sisters in Gaza without mercy or even pity."
At least let the man make it into office before you start blaming him for stuff. You'd almost think they were Republicans or something.
That logic - the one of holding the people collectively responsible for the decisions their political leadership takes, and for the resulting actions of violence directed at the said leadership to discourage it - justifies 9/11. Sure you want to go down that road?
Since Israel isn't trying to cause civilian deaths with their counterattacks, I'd liken it more to the bombing of the USS Cole (military target) rather than 9/11 (civilian target).

But yes, your point is a good one.



 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Since Israel isn't trying to cause civilian deaths with their counterattacks, I'd liken it more to the bombing of the USS Cole (military target) rather than 9/11 (civilian target).

But yes, your point is a good one.
Thanks for the correction. I concur with the sentiment.

@WildBerry:
Are you familiar with Sartre? He fought in the resistance. He believed that every mans DUTY is to fight for the right thing. If you dont, you are responsible for every wrongdoing. Thats the ethic essense of Existentialism. If they are tolerating their faschist leadership, than they deserve to die (in my eyes they fail to be men).
He also deemed the right cause to be something we do not necessarily concur with.

Wiki said:
Sartre went to Cuba in the '60s to meet Fidel Castro and spent a great deal of time philosophizing with Ernesto "Che" Guevara. After Guevara's death, Sartre would declare him to be "not only an intellectual but also the most complete human being of our age"[3] and the "era's most perfect man."[4] Sartre would also compliment Che Guevara by professing that "he lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."[5]
So it's the duty of the Palestinians to fight for the Great Proletarian Revolution of the World, too? If you quote an authority on an issue, try to make sure the rest of his stand on the issue makes some sense, too.

I understand the basic premise of Sartre's - that omission is a choice, and it, like all choices, has consequences and ramifications. You would do well to remember, though, that even Sartres philosophy does not give free ticket to others - they, too, are responsible for their actions. "He was a bad guy" does not set one home free.



 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

@llad12:
@WildBerry:
Are you familiar with Sartre? He fought in the resistance. He believed that every mans DUTY is to fight for the right thing. If you dont, you are responsible for every wrongdoing. Thats the ethic essense of Existentialism. If they are tolerating their faschist leadership, than they deserve to die (in my eyes they fail to be men).
He also deemed the right cause to be something we do not necessarily concur with.

Wiki said:
Sartre went to Cuba in the '60s to meet Fidel Castro and spent a great deal of time philosophizing with Ernesto "Che" Guevara. After Guevara's death, Sartre would declare him to be "not only an intellectual but also the most complete human being of our age"[3] and the "era's most perfect man."[4] Sartre would also compliment Che Guevara by professing that "he lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."[5]
So it's the duty of the Palestinians to fight for the Great Proletarian Revolution of the World, too? If you quote an authority on an issue, try to make sure the rest of his stand on the issue makes some sense, too.

I understand the basic premise of Sartre's - that omission is a choice, and it, like all choices, has consequences and ramifications. You would do well to ermember, though, that even Sartres philosophy does not give free ticket to others.

A propos, Sartre also had some somber understanding for the Palestinian Münich bombers' methods, which I am sure you do not share.



 

Galabab

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

@WildBErry:
hehe you made a doublepost by mistake.
According sartre you got me wrong though.
I brought him up to back me up on my position that the palestinians HAVE to make the "right" choice.
Protecting their country would be a right choice. Its NOT however to fire rockets in peacetime and have the genocide on Israel as official goal of the state.

And you didnt answer. A or B?

edit: im looking at Sartres position on terrorism right now. Sofar it looks you got him wrong ...sofar
update on Sartre: I read that he never defended any terrorist attacks. He did say that terrorism is an understandable option of the oppressed. There are also according to him 4 cases of unacceptable terrorism:
1.being a system itself
2.An ideology of terror’ and a ‘morality of suspicion’ must be avoided
3.no justification [for terror] beyond its necessity’
4.a deviation from humanity as end due to urgency’

Well the first 2 should suffice to point out Sarte did NOT support this kind of terrorism.
 
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Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Just so I'm clear, why is what Israel does a big deal?
People pay attention for it for the same reason Australians watch cricket. No-one cares about the game anymore, it's just an excuse to put on your team colours and cheer and hurl abuse at the other guys when they're losing.

Basically, the checked off "Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!" at the ballot box, so my sympathy is somewhat muted.
True, but the other options on that ballot were:

Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!
Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!
Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!
Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!
Yes, I would like Israeli explosives delivered to my door!

At least let the man make it into office before you start blaming him for stuff. You'd almost think they were Republicans or something.
Heheh.



 

Johnny

Banned
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Seems the kill count is drasticly tiping against Israel now. A few days ago it was 100 dead palestinians per dead Israeli. Now it's 1 dead Israeli for every 70 palestinians. More bombs are needed!
 

Dirty_Zulu

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Seems the kill count is drasticly tiping against Israel now. A few days ago it was 100 dead palestinians per dead Israeli. Now it's 1 dead Israeli for every 70 palestinians. More bombs are needed!
US ratio is better in Iraq. 1 US per 200 Iraqi depending on who you ask.

We need to give better weapons to the Israeli.



 
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