Israel and its neightbors are at it again

[jmervyn]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

And they go home to their families each night, which is apparently 'hiding amoung civilians' - and the Israeli soldiers/reservists go home to their families each night too, which is aparently 'being a civilian'.

I'm defining civilians on both sides as non-combatants. Hamas delights in what would be considered war crimes in any legitimate discussion, actively targeting non-combatant population with the intent to cause casualties, while Israel tries its utmost to avoid killing non-combatant population while attacking military targets.

Your message is nothing but hate and fear.

As opposed to your happiness at the prospect of dead J00z? That's nice. Go sing "Kumbayah" with your pal Rashid Khalidi, bitte.

I don't understand. You want Israel to fire rockets indiscriminately at population areas in Gaza instead of using missiles to target terrorists?

Why are you questioning the obvious? Of course Ill wants whatever results in the greatest number of dead Jews; The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are embraced by Commies everywhere. :thumbup:

The numbers being thrown around, 300 terrorists and 63 civilians, anywhere else in the world if those numbers were reversed it would be proclaimed as an excellent example of precision bombing and a minimum of loss of life.

True, better than NATO is doing in Afghanistan.

That depends on who's defining the terrorist. For example, I'm sure there are sources to whom it is tempting to count anyone who is a member of Hamas as a terrorist. This would then include their police force. However, according to international agreements, a policeman is concidered a civilian, not a combatant. I'm pretty sure the numbers are not cut and dried.

You apparently have forgotten that Hamas seized control of the Gaza by force. They are not the legitimate government. Furthermore, your consideration of "police" force presumes that they have a separate army, which is not the case - the best that might be said is that they occasionally wear uniforms so they wouldn't all be illegal combatants.

Of course, you pretty much invalidated the reasonable parts of your post by insinuating that all Palestinians are terrorists. But I'll overlook that one for now.

94% approval rating for the slaughter of J00z doesn't make me exactly concerned about the niceties of terrorist vs. terrorist supporter. But Israel <does> want to avoid civilian casualties, or they'd be conducting a "proportionate" response (considering their population and casualty rate).

Maybe dropping cluster bombs on housing areas, as Ill insists the U.S. does. :coffee:

 

[Dondrei]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

You apparently have forgotten that Hamas seized control of the Gaza by force. They are not the legitimate government.

You know, we have a lot of dumb argument threads on a lot of dumb topics but I think the Israel vs. Palestine threads really bring out the grade A stupid.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

You apparently have forgotten that Hamas seized control of the Gaza by force. They are not the legitimate government.

What sort of legitimacy were we looking for? The sort of they being elected or something?

Following the Battle for Gaza in June 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank, replaced by rival Fatah members and independents in an action that many Palestinians and other experts considered illegal.[14][15] On 18 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force.[16]

And as you well know, whatever Israel has taken by force you deem rightfully belonging to them. How is Hamas different in this respect?

Furthermore, your consideration of "police" force presumes that they have a separate army, which is not the case - the best that might be said is that they occasionally wear uniforms so they wouldn't all be illegal combatants.

So you actually have to have an uniform-clad army to have a police force, or in fact, any civilians? Icelanders would surely be interested in this tidbit.

94% approval rating for the slaughter of J00z doesn't make me exactly concerned about the niceties of terrorist vs. terrorist supporter. But Israel <does> want to avoid civilian casualties, or they'd be conducting a "proportionate" response (considering their population and casualty rate).

I might start with the fact that throwing around random numbers paraphrased and frosted with your opinion is not the way to show a sentiment in a group. Substantiate the claim with something before we start making heads or tails about it.

Even if they really support "slaughtering j00s", which, I am rather sure, is not what the poll asks, you probably already know that in an armed conflict where the other side is shooting at you, you rarely root for the other side. The numbers you are quoting are no news.

Since there are differences in thinking you would like to kill someone and actually killing someone, there is also a difference in voicing support (I'm confident that's all your poll can vouch for) for terrorists and actually participating in action of a terrorist organisation.

You, on the other hand, keep just broadening the definition post-by-post - this last one got you to the point where thinking something is as good as doing it. For all the rationalisation I've read so far, all I can see you say is "they should get it because they're Palestinians".

 

[CyberHawk]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

You know, we have a lot of dumb argument threads on a lot of dumb topics but I think the Israel vs. Palestine threads really bring out the grade A stupid.

As my 8 yr old son would say...."still an A tho" :wink:

 

[llad12]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I don't understand. You want Israel to fire rockets indiscriminately at population areas in Gaza instead of using missiles to target terrorists? What good does that do us? We don't go around trying to kill as many civilians as possible.

Nah, you just impose closures and curfews for control, maintain power over natural resources, exploit Palestinian labor, and prohibit indigenous economic development. South Africa used a similar tactic in the past ... they called it apartheid.

Is there any wonder why they shoot rockets at you?

Wouldn't it just be easier to carpet bomb Gaza or poison their water supply?

That would be even more disproportionate ...

... or cut off the money the Israeli government continues to give them?

Since you have so much money to throw around, perhaps the USA should cut back on its annual 2+ billion dollars in federal aid to Israel. After all, we are in an economic recession, and spending 1/3rd of our annual foreign aid budget on .001% of the world's population that already has one of the world's highest per capita income doesn't seem very responsible anyway.

Oh ... did I say something politically incorrect?




Have a nice day,

Llad

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Nah, you just impose closures and curfews for control, maintain power over natural resources, exploit Palestinian labor, and prohibit indigenous economic development. South Africa used a similar tactic in the past ... they called it apartheid.

To be fair, a good part of the blacks didn't go batcrap terrorist mad.

 

[llad12]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

To be fair, a good part of the blacks didn't go batcrap terrorist mad.

To be even more fair, one has to review the recent history of this region:

The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."

Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.

Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food.

It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorizing civilians as a matter of state policy.

Italics are mine.

The Independent

While I certainly do not condone Hamas' actions of shooting rockets into civilian areas, Israel is no saint in this matter. Their invasion of the Gaza strip is with "dirty hands" and they are as much to blame as anyone for the continuation of hostilities in this region.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is a tragedy. Israel's current invasion of the Gaza will not stop the bloodshed ... it will only intensify Palestinian hatred which will result in further rocket and suicide bomber attacks in the future.

 

[moo-cow]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I believe Golda Meir put it easily in quotable terms Israeli feelings toward neighboring Arab countries.

"We can forgive the Arabs for what they do to our children but we cannot forgive them for what they force us to do to their children."

and "We will have peace with our neighbors when they love their children more than they hate us."

To simply baricade the boarder between the Gaza strip and Israel would still be putting our lives in their hands. To suggest that we allow them passsage into Israel to work instead of using peaceful foreigners might make Europeans feel warm and fuzzy inside but its our blood that flows freely from their hands.


Generally I discount the Brittish media, based on the BBC, as being as pro-Palestinian as the Arabic media. Still, to give The Independent the benefit of the doubt, I looked it up on Wikipedia. quoted from the political stance section:

When the paper was established in 1986, the founders intended its political stance to reflect the centre of the British political spectrum, and thought that it would take readers primarily from The Times and The Daily Telegraph. However it is now broadly seen as tending towards more liberal or left-wing views, and to be more of a competitor to The Guardian.[9] Although it still features right-wing columnists such as Bruce Anderson and Dominic Lawson, its politics are considered by some to be the most left-wing of any national British daily. A MORI Poll taken between April-June 2000 showed that 60% of Independent readers were Labour Party voters.[10] A 2004 poll by MORI showed that 39% of its readers were Liberal Democrat voters whilst 36% supported Labour.[11][dead link]
In recent years, it has often had critical, editorial-style front page spreads on George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and Israeli government policies. In a 2006 article Robert Fisk reported soil sample evidence that Israel might have used a "secret new uranium-based weapon" during the 2006 Lebanon War.[8] United Nations and International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) experts determined that as of February 2007 there was no evidence of depleted-uranium-ammunitions.

To take the phrase "taken with a grain of salt," the amount of salt necessary to hack through their politics to find a truthful view of recent history would surely be more than necessary to kill a man. They've had 41 years since the 6 day war, 60 years since Israeli independence, 91 years since Balfour and 120 years since meaningful Jewish immigration started from Eastern Europe to learn to coexist with us peacefully. To suggest they learn it now overnight from Israel or have it thrust on them by the US/Europe/UN is farcicle, but to suggest we will allow them to attack us and sit back and welcome it is sheer stupidity, and I do not understand why the UN, Europe or Malaysia insist upon it.

 

[Johnny]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

To take the phrase "taken with a grain of salt," the amount of salt necessary to hack through their politics to find a truthful view of recent history would surely be more than necessary to kill a man. They've had 41 years since the 6 day war, 60 years since Israeli independence, 91 years since Balfour and 120 years since meaningful Jewish immigration started from Eastern Europe to learn to coexist with us peacefully. To suggest they learn it now overnight from Israel or have it thrust on them by the US/Europe/UN is farcicle, but to suggest we will allow them to attack us and sit back and welcome it is sheer stupidity, and I do not understand why the UN, Europe or Malaysia insist upon it.

You can't blame them for considering their land stolen. heck israel has taken over more than 50% of the original palastine. It's pretty hard to push the argument that you just wan't to coexist in peace when israel just keeps growing and palestine just keeps shrinking as a result.

 

[mince pies]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

The title makes Israel sound like someone that's shagging their foxy neighbour.

Can imagine a news reader on BBC News (don't know any American news channels ): "So here we are; Israel and its neighbours are at it like rabbits. Again!"

 

[Galabab]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

There is something you dont get.

1) All that has been doesnt matter! Its past. It was wrong yes but its past. Germans raided and massacred millions of russians. Now is russias only goal the annihilation of germany?
No. Nearly every country has commited crimes.
Most of them FAR greater than stealing a tiny little fart of land.

2) Hamas is the leadership of Gaza. Hamas declared war upon Israel and its goal is complete and utter destruction of the Israel state. This is fact and present reality.
It is WAR my friends.

3) Israel will fight back with all means necesary. Even if it means droping the bomb.
Did the allies try to protect civilians when they bombed german cities? How many innocent people died? Inncoent children and all.
This is WAR. And in wars innocent people get hurt.

4) If palsetinians want the war to end they should not fight back but surrender to all terms their stronger enemy dictates or be annihilated. Thats reality.
Not like Israelis want to enslave everybody lol. There are thousends of arabs living and thriving in Israer having the same rights and all.

5) And finally. Thanks god Israel is strong and no matter how much those uneducated stubborn haters will cry, it will go on and hopefully finish the job.

 

[MagisterMan]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

In the end violonce isn't going to solve the conflict and I think Israel knows that. These attacks are meant to weaken Hamas, but I don't know if they will succeed with that.

 

[Galabab]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Why not? Just need to kill all the arms carriering men. And thats it. Over and over again.

 

[Dirty_Zulu]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Why not? Just need to kill all the arms carriering men. And thats it. Over and over again.

I like that idea. But if you're fighting uncivilized people where you can't tell civilian from military.

Have you seen the news footage of Palestinians in the street? I can't tell if cousin Sayed and Abdul wearing street clothes chanting in the streets are military or not. Or do you kill the one holding the Ak47 and spare the other?

 

[Galabab]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Any chanting in the streets under war oder is crime and should be punished. Throw any trouble makers in jail. Shoot all arms carrieng trouble makers.
At the same time. Help civilians with big big messege "YOU ARE GETTING HELP FROM JEWS" on everything they get. Built up. Give work.
And you will see people will learn to accept the authorities. They are not dumb they will love peacetime and friendship with their stronger neighbour.

 

[WildBerry]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Any chanting in the streets under war oder is crime and should be punished.

Which law is it that says that again?

You can rationalise wanting to kill people all you like, but don't assume legislators in your country or intentionally subscribe to your idea of a law if you do.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree they're stirring up **** and are asking for a hole in the head. It just might very well be there is no law that warrants putting that hole in their head.

 

[Galabab]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

WildBerry wake up bro, its a goddamn WAR!

Even in peacetime you cannot go out and start riots.

If a country starts a war it should be prepared to die.
Well some argue that Hamaz is forcing the people to fight.
But why do you think our grandfathers fought and died for democracy?
Our countries are lucky to have gained democracy so no stupid Hamaz can force us into stupid wars.

And them arabs still live in goddamn dark age. Let themselves be ruled by religion and warlords. SO if the population canot shake off the opressors they should be either thankfull for others to save them or just ready to die.

 

[maccool]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

Just so I'm clear, why is what Israel does a big deal? Thanks to the end of the cold war and pre-emptive strikes, there are numerous seaports and air bases in the region. Some of them even have democratically elected governments.

1) All that has been doesnt matter! Its past. It was wrong yes but its past.

Hey, those rockets sent in from Gaza were in the past. It was wrong, yes, but it's past. It doesn't matter.

Germans raided and massacred millions of russians. Now is russias only goal the annihilation of germany?
No. Nearly every country has commited crimes.
Most of them FAR greater than stealing a tiny little fart of land.

Well, as long as it's only a fart of land and not a giant **** of land, I guess it's ok. As long as it's not Germany or Russia.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

I'll let Hamas play the victim once they stop moving their rocket launchers into mosques.

 

[PFSS]

Re: Israel and its neightbors are at it again

and "We will have peace with our neighbors when they love their children more than they hate us."

They do - but when Israel isn't settling people on land in Gaza it seals the place off to starve the people. If they love their children they have to ensure that their children have a future that doesn't involve either being kicked off their land or starved to death/near death.

They've had 41 years since the 6 day war, 60 years since Israeli independence, 91 years since Balfour and 120 years since meaningful Jewish immigration started from Eastern Europe to learn to coexist with us peacefully. To suggest they learn it now overnight from Israel or have it thrust on them by the US/Europe/UN is farcicle, but to suggest we will allow them to attack us and sit back and welcome it is sheer stupidity, and I do not understand why the UN, Europe or Malaysia insist upon it.

You do have to admit that there has been, and still is, a fair portion of the Jewish population who aren't all that interested in co-existence - you only need to look to the settler movement and it's supporters to see examples of people who have no intention of a two state solution or peaceful co-existence.