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ISO Cubing Tips

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by ToRuleEmAll, Mar 12, 2004.

  1. ToRuleEmAll

    ToRuleEmAll IncGamers Member

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    ISO Cubing Tips

    Hello,

    Could someone with a bit of experience in cubing (ie. so-so charm + 3pgems = WOW charm) explain what are the requirements to get a nice +1 skill charm?

    Few things I have in mind:

    Will it work with any charm? I've seen some people mentioning the use of "baal charms" because they are "ilvl99". What is this supposed to mean?

    Do you keep rerolling the same charm until you get something decent? My short experience shows me that the lvl req (and quality) of rerolled charms tend to decrease...

    Does the character need to be at a certain level or could a lvl1 mule do it?

    In average, how many pgems you spend until a skiller (or other decent charm) comes around?

    Thanks in advance!
    *ToRuleEmAll
     
  2. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    I have reroled a bunch of grand charms with the goal of getting skillers.
    I keep reroling them until they are nice. Most often i end up with 40 life and or mana on them.
    this far i have cubed for about 50-60 gems. With that made the folowing charms:
    -druid elemetal skills
    -ama bow skills
    -34 life + 45 mana
    -48 mana + 6 dex
    -36 life.

    With this small amount, its hard to say how many gems per skiller or good mod. it also depends greatly on what you find good mods of course. Most of the one i have are made in like 3 tries or so. Only the ama skiller took me 7 tries :(

    Good resiststs could also be a reason to keep them

    With this formula, the ilvl is not affected, so you can cube them as long as you want.

    if you are happy with only the skills on them, you can take any charms from hell, and i am not sure, but i think also late nightmare.

    If you want life for a secondary mod however, the higher ilvl your charm is. the higher level life mod you can have.
    here are the needed ilvl's for the range of life you can get on them:
    (77)[36-40]
    (91)[41-45]
    (110)[46-50]

    obviously, 110 is impossible to get.
    91 can be get from baal, maybe also from a select few other monsters, but i'm not sure about who that would be.
    77 is not so much a problem, you can get these from many places in hell, i think everywhere in act2 and further. Also of course the lvl 85 area's.

    Since i already have multiple mules full of pgems, and i find like 2 grand charms a day, i just settle for the lvl 77 ones. Because i only do lvl 85 area's, mephisto and baal runs, that means i can use all grand charms i find in hell.

    your character level has no influence, i cube mines with one of my gem mules (lvl 1)
     
  3. ConnerMacleod

    ConnerMacleod IncGamers Member

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    There is a place to farm for every type of charm you want to cube.

    Best advice: Don't reroll Grands that are found in Hell, don't reroll smalls that are found before Hell Act 2. Baal charms are only rerolled with small, and GCs and LCs are not worth the Pgems to reroll.

    When rerolling Grands, the best level to reroll is the level that will produce the least number of useless mods.

    When it comes to getting life mods with skills GCs, I just let the game drop them for me. By cubing GCs found in hell, there is a shot that you will get >30 life, but not much. Odds are you will see the "of Maiming" mod more than you would like to see as a single mod.

    When rolling, remember that the odds of getting two mods (Prefix and Suffix) are 1 in 4. 75% of the time the charm will only receive one mod.
     
  4. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Ok, a nooblar question then - what about the Pit? Are charms I've found there (and jools, or any other 3-perf cubing for that matter) going to fall under the same cube criteria as the so-called 'Baal charms'?

    And another two - does the ilvl change after cubing? And is it dependent on where you are at? Assuming the worst, I've been doing my cubing at the bottom of the pit. :scratch:
     
  5. ToRuleEmAll

    ToRuleEmAll IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the responses, guys. I spent some 70 pgems on a hell-found GC last night and I wasn't happy at all with the results. I'll target at rerolling small vitas and all res ones then. I do need those as well.
    Cheers
    *ToRuleEmAll
     
  6. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    I will just keep rerolling my hell grand charms.
    I like skillers.

    Just look at the amount of prefixes and you will see that about 1/3 of the available prefixes are skillers. So pretty good chance there.
    only 3 mods ar higher than the skill mods, so the chance is not reduced by much if you take hell charms instead of say NM act3 charms (those would have lvl just enough for skillers)

    Small charms have 45 prefixes of wich 3-5 (depending on your standards) are worth it. (fine, shimmering, pestilent and maybe toxic and seperpents). Thats a lot less chance than getting a skiller.
    they have 32 suffixes or wich 2 are worth it (vita and MF) a few others are only usefull with the right prefix, but the chance on having both AND the right combination is small (double poison)

    So the grand charms have a much better chance of being usefull than the small charms.
    You can go for the lowest amound of useless mods, but you'd have to aim at lvl 50, that means you have to hunt at pretty specific area's. Taking hell charms only adds 3 useless mods to the ~70 mods available one of them (55 for 8-12 mf) is so close to 50 that its pretty hard to avoid anyway.

    LC not being worth cubing is definately true though, they are barely even worth identifying when you find them.
     
  7. ConnerMacleod

    ConnerMacleod IncGamers Member

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    Wacken: Pretty specific areas for level 50s???

    I'm not disclosing my secret, but I'll give everyone a hint. Complete the Act that you are probably skipping right through at the moment to find these charms. Those are the charms that give +1 skills about every 10-15 rerolls on average. These charms have the absolute minimum required to get +1 skills, and the life mod can spawn as high as 30. They also reduce appx 8 mods that you don't want. Your odds of both mods?

    ilvl 85: 1 in 23,000 (+1/Life mod)
    ilvl 50-54: 1 in 19,000 (+1/Life mod)

    ilvl 85: 1 in 485 (+1 any skill)
    ilvl 50-54: 1 in 461 (+1 any skill)

    So, for your Pgem dollar, which one would you reroll? Sure, taking a shot at awesome life mods is nice, but I can trade my simple mod charms off for those any day.

    Pit charms are ilvl 85 and 83. Unless the charm is from a boss and then add +3 to the ilvl. If a Champ add +2. Devilkins are 85.
     
  8. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    I am just now looking into the sc mods better. and gonna elaborate a bit more on all this charm stuff:

    Small charms usefull mods:

    Out of 46 prefixes:
    Fine (21)
    Serpent's (40)
    shimmering (25)
    Pestilent (**)
    Shocking (90)
    Flaming (89)

    Out of 27 suffixes:
    Good Luck (33)
    Vita (39)
    The antrax and other damage mods are only usefull with their respectife prefix as well. they are lvl 44-46.

    All other prefixis except the medium elemental damages are below 40. So usingbaal charms is a good thing indeed.

    Baal charms for this sake do NOT include the charms from the lvl 85 area's. I am not completely sure, but i thing baals minnions are not high enough either. Only baal himself.

    Now the grand charms:

    Out of 73 prefixes the folling are usefull:
    Serpent's (37)[40-46](43)[47-52](49)[53-59]
    Shimmering (8)[3-6](14)[8-12](35)[13-15]
    ~ 16 of the 21 skillers (50)
    (i think pala aura's and barb masteries are not that usefull for example)

    there are 3 prefixes higher than 50.

    Out of 26 suffixes only one is semi usefull when alone, but VERY good when together with a usefull prefix:
    Vita 77)[36-40](91)[41-45](110)[46-50]

    Copied from the arreat summit:

    When Magic Items are created the chances are:
    Both Prefix and Suffix: 25%
    Only a Prefix: 25%
    Only a Suffix: 50%

    this makes for small charms:
    the 25% prefix * 13% (6of46) = 3.25%
    the 50% suffic * 7.4% (2of27) = 3.7%
    the 25% both * 19.4 (13%+7.4%) = 4.85%
    makes a total chance of 11.8% of a usefull charm.

    (dunno much about values of elemtal dmg charms, i included it as usefull, but i dont know if people actually find it usefull without suffix, personally i do not)

    for large charms:
    the 25% prefix * 24.6 (18of73) = 6.16%
    the 50% suffic * 3.85 (1of 26) = 1.92%
    the 25% both * 27.5% (24.6%+3.85%) = 6.87%
    total chance of 14.9% of a usefull charm.

    If it were not for the fact that i dont like small charms with fire and lightning damage, the chances would indeed be close enough to cube both. Since i only want vita and skills on my charms though, i keep going for grand ones.

    In my calculations, only "usefull" is calculated. Meaning one good prefix OR suffix. I am too lazy to calculate the chance of having both a good prefix and a good suffix, which would make the godly charms. Since however this will be less than 1%, that is not the thing i am really going for.
     
  9. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    I dont know where you get those 8 mods from, i found only 3 prefixes. (on 72) and 2 NON LIFE suffixes.

    I dont really use hell charms because i go for the super life mod, i mostly do so because i am too lazy to go hunt for lvl 50 ones in NM act3. With the mephi runs i do, i can easilly sell crap worth of 100 pgems every day (and thats what i have done last 2 days) I dont want to be spending hours on finding those charms that have a slightly better chance to be a skiller while i can also just take the ones i find in baal runs of MF pit runs and go with the slightle less chance (3 on 72)

    I may be stupid, but i dont understand where from you got those odds and what you mean with them....
    As far is i understand, the 461 vs 485 is the difference in chance for a skiller with life mod on those levels.. (the other number are to represent the chance for the highest life mod?) that difference is really not worth spending time on charm hunting for me.
     
  10. rpgforumsnet

    rpgforumsnet IncGamers Member

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    Damn, I agree with Conner. I collected around 12 mules of gems over the last 4 weeks and burned them all in one session using ilvl 85 charms.
    I think I get 1.5 skillers per mule - that sure is not impressive.

    I shouldn't listen to the opinions from zappa's thread sometime ago. I remember stinger or someone else suggested that the chance to get the godly life mod is worth the extra gems spent.... now I regret :rant:
     
  11. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    you will get 1.6 skiller per mule if you search level 50 charms. IMPRESSIVE !

    no really, 1.5 is a bit low i think, it should be more, but the average chance only that much higher that it would be 1.6 with the same amount of luck.

    Edit:

    With 21 skillers on 72 prefixes and 50% chance of having a prefix (including the 25% of having both) you have 14.58 % chance of having a skiller from a hell charm.

    With 21 skilles on 69 prefixes and 50% of having a prefix (including the 25% of having both) you have 15.22% chance of having a skiller from a lvl 50 charm.

    With ** gems on a mule, that means you should on average get:

    4.28 skillers per mule with hell charms.
    4.46 skillers per mule with lvl 50 charms.

    If your number of 1.5 is correct, you are either very unlucky, or the chances are not equal for all prefixes.
     
  12. ZappaFan

    ZappaFan Hardcore Moderator and America Trade Moderator

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    I prefer re-rolling hell small charms. The bang for the buck seems to be better to me. I had some real good luck the first time I tried rolling grands. Something like 9 or 10 skillers in 2 mules of gems. Those were all GC from hell games. Since then I've gotten mostly crap rolling grands. I suppose it was just the law of averages catching up. But I almost always have good luck getting keeper small charms if the charm dropped anywhere in a hell game. There's just a lot more truely useful stuff that can result.
     
  13. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    Read edited post above...
     
  14. ConnerMacleod

    ConnerMacleod IncGamers Member

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    Spend all day? Not if you know where to look for them! :p

    8 mods, not prefixes. And I was off by 1 actually (bad memory). There are 7 mods from ilvl 55 to 99. Of them, there are 3 life mods. Remember they are split from 31-35, 36 to 40, and 41 to 45.

    You can burn all the pgems you want on higher level grands, but I'll cube the 50-54 charms. It takes me more time to trade for the pgems than to locate the charms actually. I can have 10-20 of them (ilvl 50 GCs) within an hour, you just gotta know where to look.

    EDIT: Your math is also incorrect. You are assuming that all mods are equally weighted in the affix selection. In truth, the skill mods are 1/4th as likely to appear as the more common mods. There are many mods that are less likely to appear. When you know the weighting of the various mods, you can compute the overall affix selection odds.
     
  15. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    ah i see.
    Do you maybe have a link where i can find the info on the weight of all mods?

    And it would be nice if you'd tell where to get those charms so fast :).
    I would expect council runs ?

    BTW, you won :D, just tell me if council is the place to get the lvl 50's :) (And what is if that is not)
     
  16. ConnerMacleod

    ConnerMacleod IncGamers Member

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    Nope, Council is too high level. Like 59 or so IIRC.

    Answer to your prayers: Great Marsh to Upper Kurast, offers ilvls between 50 and 54. Do it in full games with an uber FO sorc, you'll be done in 10-15 mins per run. Open all chests you find, kill all monsters you find.

    Edit: Not allowed to link to competing web sites.
     
  17. sonikki_

    sonikki_ IncGamers Member

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    so this is nm a3 ?
     
  18. jsteel

    jsteel IncGamers Member

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    YES..........
     
  19. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    Thanx for the info :)
     
  20. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir IncGamers Member

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    Since i have no FO sorc (and blizzard is not as good to kill masses), and also i have been to lazy overall to do so, i have not yet searched lvl 50 charms.

    Now last meph run, mephi dropped a GC. So i cubed that anyway.

    very first try:

    13 res all + 39 life :D :D

    wow i'm lucky.
     

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