Is vengence bm?

SnackPack

Diabloii.Net Member
Is vengence bm?

was just curious... im somewhat new to .10 melee dueling.

back in .09 most duels took place in nm... now they all seem to take place in hell. was just curious if items like bstar, and skills like vengence are still considered bm in hell duel games.

sorry if this is a bit noobish... i just dont like to piss people off.

ps... it seems like LT is not bm... does the same apply for other curses cast on a chance %... such as amp and weaken?

thanks for your time.
 

dkay

Diabloii.Net Member
with all the other crap like AA nking gold stealing minion stack double teams etc. i dont think vengence (which is an actual skill) is bm. good luck hitting people with that though. especially since with its frames, it prolly wont hit many casters which make up for 80% of pub duelers.
 

Phyrexial

Diabloii.Net Member
None of what you mentioned is BM. The most BM thing you listed was Lifetap, but even that has become practically accepted.
 

Lyrs

Diabloii.Net Member
The only BM rulebook that matters is the one your mother and father should've or has taught you and that you live by.

Basically, pubby is anything goes, but I would really like to see some simple manners in public since that's where I mostly duel, and it sucks when everyone else is acting like an ass.

And yeah, if you can get a vengence kill, my hats off to you.
 

Generator Of Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
Ok, people, follow me on this:
HOW can it be considered bm to use skills or items in the game?? HOW? so, people aren't allowed to win?

His gear is better? Improve your own gear...
On the other hand, people seem to accept mana potting, wich DOES affect a duel greatly, I'd dare say almost as much as life potions...

Bm, "Bad Manners", in my book, are about atitude, not item usage... Naked Killing, Townguarding, Looting, Potting, Hacking, Jumping... For me THAT is bm...Now using an item design for that purpose?...C'mmon... Soon enough anyone who is an exceptional dueller will be called "bm", cause he's too good...
 

mdkkns

Diabloii.Net Member
Ditto Chaos.

I dun believe using skills intended in the game is BM. It's the attitude of duellers that suck. It's always irritating how pubbies can degenerate into a name-calling and noobish-acting session. Especially people who get into games for the sole purpose of ganging up and BMing everyone else.
 

Generator Of Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
RetroStar said:
Considering Vengence is slow and pretty weak. I would say no.
Slow yes, but not weak... Vengeance + Conviction is quite damaging, and I'm considering building one for kicks..just, low on wealth at the moment...eheh..
 

AzaZaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Generator Of Chaos said:
Ok, people, follow me on this:
HOW can it be considered bm to use skills or items in the game?? HOW? so, people aren't allowed to win?

His gear is better? Improve your own gear...
On the other hand, people seem to accept mana potting, wich DOES affect a duel greatly, I'd dare say almost as much as life potions...

Bm, "Bad Manners", in my book, are about atitude, not item usage... Naked Killing, Townguarding, Looting, Potting, Hacking, Jumping... For me THAT is bm...Now using an item design for that purpose?...C'mmon... Soon enough anyone who is an exceptional dueller will be called "bm", cause he's too good...

I agree mostly, but say in LLD one person decides to shop for a weaken wand...It's not because they are more skillful or because they are even creative, they just decided to buy a wand to give them weaken charges. This forces the opponent to shop a weaken wand (if they want I usually dont bother), but its that easy. I mean if its as simple as buying the item in order to balance the duel again, why bother in the first place, I consider that to be bad manners and kind of childish. Why bother using weaken on me with your lld pally if I'm just gonna stop the duel take my time to buy weaken myself, and use it on you to balance...why not just avoid using it in the first place.

same goes for LR charges etc.


just my .02


cheers
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
AzaZaz said:
I agree mostly, but say in LLD one person decides to shop for a weaken wand...It's not because they are more skillful or because they are even creative, they just decided to buy a wand to give them weaken charges.
You mean like an assassin shopping a better trap claw? Your example doesn't hold up. You aren't a more skilled dueler by MFing a great item, you were just lucky. You aren't more skilled when you gamble a super good item, you're just lucky. Should you not use those items? All were obtained through the same legitimate game mechanisms, that is, the game gives you several routes to get items: MFing, shopping, and gambling. You claim shopping is BM? Or just certain items? Or is it the skills on certain items? In any event, you see the problem. Using just the slightest extension of your logic, just about anything can be labeled "BM".
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
There is no such thing as "BM".

If you play in a private group, then you have rules. But that's not what is being discussed here.

If you play in public games there are only two things that are generally frowned upon: Life potting and NKing.

If anything is "BM" (a term I hate), it's merely being impolite and a jerk. If you are polite, the vast majority of people will be polite right back to you, even if they don't conform to someone's personal rules on items, skills, etc.

When people try to claim that mana pots, for example, are "BM", ask them two questions:
1. Where are the official rules we can all look at that say so?
2. Explain how you will know that people used a mana pot at any given time?

The answer to the first question is that there are no such rules.

The answer to the second question is that you can't. Saying mana pots are "BM" is absolutley pointless. You cannot tell when someone uses one. You CAN usually tell when people use a life pot or a rejuv.

Finally, there is the issue that 99% of the people in pubs have no problems using mana pots. The .01% of people who sit around on forums like this and debate imaginary rules for everyone else are the smallest of a tiny minority. So who does this tiny little group think they are and why do their rules (about absorb, or stacked res, or mana pots, or not using this or that skill or item) carry any weight at all? Answer: they don't. Do what YOU want in PUBLIC GAMES. If you want rules, then join a private group and follow the rules.
 

Generator Of Chaos

Diabloii.Net Member
AzaZaz said:
I agree mostly, but say in LLD one person decides to shop for a weaken wand...It's not because they are more skillful or because they are even creative, they just decided to buy a wand to give them weaken charges. This forces the opponent to shop a weaken wand (if they want I usually dont bother), but its that easy. I mean if its as simple as buying the item in order to balance the duel again, why bother in the first place, I consider that to be bad manners and kind of childish. Why bother using weaken on me with your lld pally if I'm just gonna stop the duel take my time to buy weaken myself, and use it on you to balance...why not just avoid using it in the first place.

same goes for LR charges etc.


just my .02


cheers
So, basicly we should all be dueling with "short swords" and "bucklers"?
I know what you're saying, but PvP, by definetion, IS elitist... It's the clash of 2 person's "skill" and "build" (including gear, connection is more of a random element)...

I can understand that charges, other than those of skills used by the character using the charged item. But that's kind of "atitude"-related too if you think about it...
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
Generator Of Chaos said:
So, basicly we should all be dueling with "short swords" and "bucklers"?
I know what you're saying, but PvP, by definetion, IS elitist... It's the clash of 2 person's "skill" and "build" (including gear, connection is more of a random element)...

I can understand that charges, other than those of skills used by the character using the charged item. But that's kind of "atitude"-related too if you think about it...
Taking AzaZaz's example to its logical conclusion, we should all have a single required set of equipment, everyone exactly the same, with no one having any equipment advantage at all, or we should just duel naked, because, afterall, "why bother using item X when I can just get item X myself and use it on you"? All these discussions are just silly unless it is with respect to a dueling group and it's about enforceable rules among the members of that group.
 

AzaZaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Speederländer said:
Taking AzaZaz's example to its logical conclusion, we should all have a single required set of equipment, everyone exactly the same, with no one having any equipment advantage at all, or we should just duel naked, because, afterall, "why bother using item X when I can just get item X myself and use it on you"? All these discussions are just silly unless it is with respect to a dueling group and it's about enforceable rules among the members of that group.
no i'm sorry thats not it, i am quite capable of coming to a logical conclusion as generator was able to get what i was saying, i'm sorry it went over your head.
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
AzaZaz said:
no i'm sorry thats not it, i am quite capable of coming to a logical conclusion as generator was able to get what i was saying, i'm sorry it went over your head.
Trust me, nothing you said "went over my head". If you don't agree with my characterization of your argument, then please feel free to explain how your example, and your opinion of it, don't lead to the exact situation I described when extended to items generally.
 

AzaZaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Let me use the example of clegs gloves in LLD in .09.

Would you consider those to be bad manners? I know everywhere I dueled they were. They used slow, and it wasnt the creativity, the uniqueness or the "luck" of finding items. Clegs gloves were low lvl, easy to acquire item that anyone can use, so since anyone could get one and anyone could use one, its easier to just avoid using them all together. Thus it became bad manners.


Buying a low lvl wand with weaken charges holds the same bearings. Its low, its cheap, ANYONE can get it. You're refuting my statement by saying "anyone can get anything so you're wrong." Sure, anyone can get a BOTD, does it mean anyone can get it with the same ease or luck? no. Can anyone shop a wand with weaken charges with the same relative ease...yes. Weaken is nothing specific to a persons build that is unique to their character. You may as well say that potions are legit too because I was smarter to buy them before you. You thought about shopping a wand with charges b4 me so you should use it? I thought of find rejuvies too, should I use them? No. Why not? because you could use them too, with the same effort, so instead of both of us rejuving and getting no where, we decide that nobody rejuvs at all. This should be the same as weaken. It has nothing to do with MF, it has nothing to do with luck, it has nothing to do with preparatory work. It gives a slight advantage over your opponent but nothing worth going out of your way for, especially since as soon as your opponent sees this they can go to town and get one of their own, so why bother in the first place.

In no way have I said everyone should be the same, or everyone should build their characters our of the same mould. I love uniqueness of a character, but using weaken charges is anything but unique. I just laugh at ppl when they think they're "tricky" or "cunning" when they weaken me. More often then not i'll duel them regardless of weaken and win. If it's giving me a problem then i'll just go shop one of my own, weaken them right back, and we're back to square one, what has this accomplished? Nothing except wasted my time. Bad Manners? yes.

I think that what offended me the most was your implying that I was saying everyone should be cut from the same mould, which was the opposite of what I was saying. If one person starts using charges available to everyone for that slight edge, then another has to use it to level the playing field, then another and another and sooner or later everyone is using them. Sounds to me like what I was arguing was PRO-individuality and you just twisted my words.

I don't like being talked down to with respect to this game and especially dueling, i've been hardcore dueling for as long as most people here have been softcore dueling and when I get the feeling that because someone writes a guide or they post more frequently on a forum that their opinion means more is offensive. I'm not saying that's your mindset, but I just wanted you to know where I was coming from.


Cheers
 

lCE

Diabloii.Net Member
thing is : a weaken wand doesnt change anything, if u had weaken cast on u and lost to someone, u would lose to them anyway whether u had weaken or not. (Reason being that it works just like conviction in pvp, takes away 33% from your total % enhanced damage, which is not even equivalent to a 40% ed jewel, after DR and pvp penalty the difference becomes negligible).
 

AzaZaz

Diabloii.Net Member
lCE said:
thing is : a weaken wand doesnt change anything, if u had weaken cast on u and lost to someone, u would lose to them anyway whether u had weaken or not. (Reason being that it works just like conviction in pvp, takes away 33% from your total % enhanced damage, which is not even equivalent to a 40% ed jewel, after DR and pvp penalty the difference becomes negligible).
Theres no real DR in lld or vld which is the focus of my argument. Im not really talking so much about hld. But if you want to talk about hld I would refer to using Amp charges or LR charges and apply the same argument.
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
AzaZaz said:
Let me use the example of clegs gloves in LLD in .09.

Would you consider those to be bad manners?
No. Because everyone had equal access to them and there are no (and never were) official rules of "BM". Making them against the rules in a league for balance reasons is one thing, saying they are somehow "BM" is totally arbitrary and ultimately meaningless. Unless you can point to the OFFICIAL rules of BM, saying something is BM is pointless because beyond NKing and life potting there is NO semi-universal agreement on what BM encompasses.


I know everywhere I dueled they were. They used slow, and it wasnt the creativity, the uniqueness or the "luck" of finding items. Clegs gloves were low lvl, easy to acquire item that anyone can use, so since anyone could get one and anyone could use one, its easier to just avoid using them all together. Thus it became bad manners.
Interesting example. So when something is "easy to get" and gives someone an advantage, it's "bad manners" to use it? There are a lot of things in the game that tip the balance to one person or another in a duel, and many of those are relatively easy to get. That doesn't make them BM. Finally, clegs were not universally declared "BM" in public games, which is what we are talking here. Half the people I dueled in pubs (and still duel in pubs) didn't even speak English! Try telling them your "BM" rules. Clegs were banned in SOME leagues, along with several other items, in order to balance the game. But leagues are NOT pubs and rules among private groups are not the Bible of "BM".

Buying a low lvl wand with weaken charges holds the same bearings. Its low, its cheap, ANYONE can get it. You're refuting my statement by saying "anyone can get anything so you're wrong." Sure, anyone can get a BOTD, does it mean anyone can get it with the same ease or luck? no. Can anyone shop a wand with weaken charges with the same relative ease...yes. Weaken is nothing specific to a persons build that is unique to their character.
So your argument is that if something can be gotten with relative ease and it's powerful it's BM? That's sure what it's sounding like...

And of course it's specific, they gave up something to wear it. And who cares anyway? Who are YOU to preach to us about what constitutes "originality" or what is or isn't non-unique?

You may as well say that potions are legit too because I was smarter to buy them before you.
What is "legit"? In any event, all but a tiny fraction of the duelers left on bnet either use mana pots or accept that people use them. Are they all BM while you and few forum people are the sole flames of "legitness" left on battlenet? I don't think so.

You thought about shopping a wand with charges b4 me so you should use it?
So if someone thinks of shopping a nice trapper claw, you must have a real problem with that right? I mean, the only difference is one person spends 15 minutes whereas the other person spends maybe an hour or so. Perhaps the formula for "BM" can be reduced to minutes of shopping? If you can shop it in under 30 minutes, it's suspect and potentially BM. Everything over 30 minutes is ok. Why not? It's just as arbitrary.


I thought of find rejuvies too, should I use them? No. Why not? because you could use them too, with the same effort, so instead of both of us rejuving and getting no where, we decide that nobody rejuvs at all.
Point 1: The only two things people generally get annoyed with in softcore dueling are NKing and using life pots or rejuvs. This IS fairly universal. So, judging by behavior in the vast majority of games, doing such things will get you punished. But personally, you can do ANY BLOODY THING YOU WANT. I will either duel you and kill you anyway (if I can), choose not to duel you because you are life potting, or join with the other duelers to drive you from the game.

Point 2: You say you are a hardcore dueler. Well, this may be a newsflash, but hardcore duelers, AS A RULE, wear a belt full of rejuvs. Don't even try to claim otherwise. I played hardcore extensively in 1.09 (as PvM, PK and PKK) and posted extensively on the HC forum. The first rule of HC dueling is do not die. The second rule of hardcore dueling is kill the other guy. Anything else else goes. If you duel in HC w/o rejuvs, you're naive. And if you try to tell people that people in HC don't regularly rejuv when they duel, you're lying.


This should be the same as weaken. It has nothing to do with MF, it has nothing to do with luck, it has nothing to do with preparatory work.
Half of successful dueling is preparatory work and equipment acquisition!!

It gives a slight advantage over your opponent but nothing worth going out of your way for, especially since as soon as your opponent sees this they can go to town and get one of their own, so why bother in the first place.
Then why the hell are you crying about it!?!?! If it's no big deal, kill the bloke and move on to your next duel. Good grief!

In no way have I said everyone should be the same, or everyone should build their characters our of the same mould. I love uniqueness of a character, but using weaken charges is anything but unique.
Why is it not unique? They gave up something else on that weapon switch for the wand. Go judge someone else.

I just laugh at ppl when they think they're "tricky" or "cunning" when they weaken me. More often then not i'll duel them regardless of weaken and win.
Again, if that's the case, why are you crying about it??

If it's giving me a problem then i'll just go shop one of my own, weaken them right back, and we're back to square one, what has this accomplished? Nothing except wasted my time. Bad Manners? yes.
No, it's not "bad manners". It just annoys YOU personally, and so you want everyone to agree with you that it's "BM".

I think that what offended me the most was your implying that I was saying everyone should be cut from the same mould, which was the opposite of what I was saying. If one person starts using charges available to everyone for that slight edge, then another has to use it to level the playing field, then another and another and sooner or later everyone is using them. Sounds to me like what I was arguing was PRO-individuality and you just twisted my words.
Why do so many pallys use grief on the ladder?
Answer: It's the best weapon to use for melee pallys.

Grief exactly fits your characterization of wands. It's easy to get and it's so powerful everyone uses it. Does that make it "BM"? Of course not. But you won't make that argument will you? You instead stick to this weaken wand nonsense because you know so few people can relate to it. How about this, you start a thread using your same "BM" argument about grief and see how far you get?

I don't like being talked down to with respect to this game and especially dueling, i've been hardcore dueling for as long as most people here have been softcore dueling and when I get the feeling that because someone writes a guide or they post more frequently on a forum that their opinion means more is offensive. I'm not saying that's your mindset, but I just wanted you to know where I was coming from.
I wasn't talking down to you, until now, when you decided to play holier than thou on the BM issue.


In summary, there is no such thing as "BM" in public games except in the minds of some forum people. In the end, the only possible thing that is "BM" is being a jerk (and who defines such behavior anyway?). Trying to say that certain equipment or skills is "BM" is nonsense. There is no universally accepted rule for what "BM" even is, so labeling people as such is arbitrary and, ultimately, serves no purpose beyond this ridiculous bickering. The only people who care are a few forum people to whom this type of thing is somehow critical to daily life. No one else cares. At all.
 
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