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Is there any point in 1100% mf?

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by Zroc, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Is there any point in 1100% mf?

    I've read through as many threads as I could, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus. Heck, half of em say going that high HURTS my chances.

    To be thorough, I will be doing nothing but Hell Baal runs. I have my sorc at Champion status (Baal quest not completed), and will be running with my friend who is a conviction pally and HAS completed the Baal quest...he will make the game, help me clear, and I will get last hit.

    My lvl 90 sorc's gear is: dual-ist Baba (might actually go with isted occy for killing power) for 150 mf, ptopaz Shako for 74, ptopaz Tal Armor for 112, Tal belt for 15, tal ammy for 65, chance guards for 40, two nagels for 60, war travs for 48, 3-isted Head Hunter's for 75. Total on gear = 639. If I decide to go with the occy and 19 mf wisp (I tele to baal), total = 558.

    In inventory is: cube, two tombs, keys, 40% gheeds and anni, and then 19 7% mf charms...total 173, and leaves me with two rows and cube. Technically, I can fill the rest with 6%'s, as my partner can mule the drops.
    Total for gear and stash is 812.

    Merc will have 3-socket Eth Tomb Reaver, 55% base mf, socketed with amn, ist, ist for 115, upgraded ptopaz skullders for 136, and either stealskull or shako for 74...total 325.

    Total mf with merc getting Baal kill will be 1137...might be higher if I fill up inv with 6%'s, might be lower if I go occy/wisp.

    In any event, will it be worth basically everything I own on every character to even do this? (I'm short about 6 7% mf charms and the eth tomb, which I'm estimating will set me back my trading stash, worth about 5 sojs all told).

    What I mean by that is...is there a point where increasing mf will NOT get me better drops from a baalq drop? I don't really care how miniscule the increase is, as long as there IS an increase. This is one of those 'I'm quitting diablo again' projects, so I don't care how stupid it actually is ;)

    Many thanks...
     
  2. chenghao

    chenghao IncGamers Member

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    MF only determines the quality of the drop , not the type of drop
    1001 % mf against 1 % mf gives u a better chance of dropping a unique instead of rare shako
     
  3. mytildebang

    mytildebang IncGamers Member

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    Can you make runs faster with less MF equipment (ie, more useful equipment)? If it slows down your runs, then it's becoming counterproductive.
     
  4. Aksama

    Aksama IncGamers Member

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    With a convict pal... you "run" as fast as you move, haha I've done this before with my friend, wow it's a doozy!
     
  5. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Oh so true, Aksama ;) Conviction just owns, and I made a pally with max conviction/zeal/sacrifice that wields a Famine weapon specifically to run with my sorc, LF javazon, and trapper assassin friends (maxed zeal and sacrifice to get excellent life leech and AR...I put quite a few points in the single resistances to get those passives, and a few in vengence as well). The throne basically melts when conviction is around.

    Speed is not a problem. And it's not like the mf equipment doesn't have skills...I'll be using occy, then switching to the dual-ist baba for the final baal strike. Between tal's ammy, shako, and occy, that's 7 skills.

    My main concern is that stupidly high magic find does in fact keep raising the unique drop probability, no matter how miniscule. I just want to make sure there's not a 'cap' of some sort...like, going above 700% doesn't do anything...something to that effect.
     
  6. Temporary Insanity

    Temporary Insanity IncGamers Member

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    I doubt that more mf will decrease the unique drop chance - however, consider that between 300 and 500 mf your actual unique drop chance increases very little... perhaps around 25%? Then when you hit 800%, say the next 25% mf you gain may only net you 1%. Also, iirc diablo calculates with integers - thus if you have 24% more, then it's completely wasted. In other words you might want to get someone to look into the breakpoints before you get those 6 7% mf charms...
     
  7. alsaan

    alsaan IncGamers Member

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    There is no cap, you can add more and more MF and your chances to get an unique will (slowly) increase

    This is the MF formula used in the game:

    chance to get an unique item = 110 + 250 * (MF - 110) / (MF + 150)


    So with 800 MF, you have 110+250*(800-110)/(800+150)~=292% better chance to get an unique
    With 1000 MF: 110+250*(1000-110)/(1000+150)~=303%
    With 1200 MF: 110+250*(1200-110)/(1200+150)~=312%
     
  8. redalert

    redalert IncGamers Member

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    Just do tons of runs, and adjust your gear as you do it. If you feel that you need certain non-mf gear to survive and do runs more efficiently, then that's fine. Different classes and different styles of mfing with different skills can affect your gear greatly in general.
     
  9. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    That is precisely what I wanted to know...thanks!
     
  10. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    So effective mf will always be less than 360.

    Could you provide the formula for rare and set items, too ?
     
  11. alsaan

    alsaan IncGamers Member

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    set items chance = 110 + 500 * (MF - 110) / (MF + 400)
    rare items chance = 110 + 600 * (MF - 110) / (MF + 500)
     
  12. ayoko

    ayoko IncGamers Member

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    Best way to determine efficiency is to use formula above for uniques and clock 1 hour worth of Meph runs:

    # of runs x unique drop% (ur MF) = MF Efficiency

    You can also factor in +/- gold (the cost of repairs/merc) etc.

    The best I ever did in 1.09 was 53 runs in one hour on Hell Meph w/930 MF (no hacks or buggy items)...of course the Durance is way bigger now and Meph is tougher....I don't know if it possible to get more than 20-30 runs per hour now.

    If you are toting a friend and splitting items...then divide result by 2.
     
  13. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Thanks. That will move straightforward into my "things nice to know" text file :)
     
  14. Thrugg

    Thrugg IncGamers Member

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    I'm not exactly sure where alsaan got those formulae from - they are very nearly right but not exactly (and they kind of include the most obvious misconceptions within them, which is good work :) )

    I'd like to first just make something clear - some poeple have an issue with this, so best to clear it up. You can talk about having "50% MF" - you usually mean you have an extra 50% MF, ie 1.5 times the normal chance of finding a magic item. Some people like to think of this as a char having an inherent 100% MF on them, representing their natural ability to find magic items even wearing 0% MF. Whatever.

    I have seen the correct diminishing returns equation written as though that natural 100 was added on. In fact, diabloii.net's tables are written that way. It can and does confuse people. Be careful what exactly you mean when you put a number into that equation for "MF".

    An additional complication is that diminishing returns doesn't actually apply unless you have at least 10% MF from gear (or 110% of your base chance). It looks to me that that is where alsaan is getting the 110s in that formula. However, it is not the case. Rather, it is simply that the formula is not used at all if MF < 10 (or 110, dependinng on what you mean by MF).

    The actual formulas are
    unique item chance = 250 * MF / (MF + 250)
    set item chance = 500 * MF / (MF + 500)
    rare item chance = 600 * MF / (MF + 600)
    In fact, Diablo always uses formulae of the form (x * c) / (x + c) for diminishing returns. IAS has c=120. FRW has c=150. They probably have a single central function they call within the code.

    But you have to bear in mind that in the formulae above, MF represents your worn MF, ie for a naked char it is 0, not 100. Also, the formulae are not used if MF < 10.
    You also have to bear in mind that the number you get back is still an "extra chance" kind of number. eg if you are wearing 200 MF, plug that into the unique formula and you get 111 back - that means 111% extra chance, or 211% or 2.11 times your regular chance.
    alsaan's formulae are almost the same, but as though you include the 100% base chance, and then doing something funny (and wrong) to account for the 10% thing.

    Sorry to go into excruciating detail about this, but I see so many incorrect attempts at conveying this info that I wanted to get the right answer out there as clearly as possible.

    Next - for the original poster - there are effective caps on all kinds of "find", however you can never reach the unique cap, even with 1000000 MF. You will hit both the set and rare caps somewhere in the vicinity of 600 MF. 1000 MF certainly would be a waste if you were looking for a particular set item. There are no precise numbers for the caps unfortunately, because they hit in different places depending on what base type is being dropped.

    However, even for uniques, the diminishing returns formula is fairly severe by the time you get to 600. For example, at 600 MF you have 2.76 times the base chance, while at 1000 MF you have exactly 3 times the base chance. That's only around 8% more. If you can run better than 8% faster with only 600 MF on than with 1000 MF on, you will be better off with 600 (because it won't matter for sets and rares).

    But, if it makes no difference to your running speed at all, there is no reason not to wear as much MF as you possibly can.
     
  15. Stormie

    Stormie IncGamers Member

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    Hey Thrugg, I have pretty much gathered that info in the past, but I just wanted to say that that was the clearest and most helpful summary of the MF diminishing returns I've yet seen. I'm definitely saving that one into my folder of useful info!

    Cheers!
     
  16. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Yes indeed...damn useful info, Thrugg. Mayhaps a sticky?

    I'll say that so far, this experiment has been worth it. Picked up the eth Tomb last night, amn/ist/isted it. I tele to Baal/clear throne with occy and um'd stormshield equiped. Weap switch to dual-isted baba/3-isted Head Hunter's for final Baal strike. All other equipment listed as it says in first post.

    Done about 20-25 runs, and the best was a 5 unique drop (I had never seen that before), and we have yet to witness a zero unique drop...there's always been at least one. Highlights have been Azurewrath, Barnars, Highlords Wraith, Rising Sun, Black Oak Luna.

    This combo...partner a near-invunerable conviction pally that has completed Baal quest making the game (so I don't lose champion status, and get the baalq drop), me a max FO/Ice Bolt/Fireball/Meteor Sorc with 1100% mf and champion status making the final hit...I believe I've found magic-finding at it's finest. My partner has been saying nothing but 'WOW!' ever since.

    With BIG props to the fellas of the Stat Forum ;)
     
  17. Saidinhc

    Saidinhc Spirit of Wars Guildmaster

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    Is this true? You get quest quality drops if you kill an act boss where you can NOT complete the quest?

    Hmm, this is definitely shedding some new light.
     
  18. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    I know it is for Baal. I don't know for any other bosses (other than andy pretty much always drops bossq unless you specifically try NOT to). I've been helping a couple 97's and 98's level, and my 97 friend got much nicer drops when he was still champion, and the drops were significantly worse when he lost it. We talked about this in detail here:

    http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=130855

    Hmm...new question: what exactly is the net effect of the bossq drop versus the normal boss drop? Is it an increase in TCs? An increase in quality probabilities (unique, set, etc)? Increase in amount of items? How exactly does the q drop differ?
     
  19. RTB

    RTB IncGamers Member

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    Quest drops are better in terms of items and quality.

    The items he drops will always be rare or higher if possible (failed sets can still drop though) and the chance for set/unique is higher.

    No 'junk' items can drop, such as keys and arrows.

    Per pick the chance for armor/weapons is 52/70, and the chance for runes/gems/jewelry is 3/70. This is at players 1.

    The only disadvantage of the quest drop is that the relative no-drop chance is higher: 15/80 for normal picks and 15/70 for quest picks. Again, at players 1.

    So for bnetters: If you're killing Baal and want a 6 item drop, 4 players in the area (Worldstone Chamber) should be enough and hopefully 8 players is enough when you're all alone in that big old Chamber.
     
  20. thunderjp

    thunderjp IncGamers Member

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    Freakin wow...
    Thank you so much...
    This is incredible information that should be stickied (if it isn't, maybe i just don't know how to find it)
     

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