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Is the pope contributing to the spread of AIDS wrong? ifra

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by plasmo, May 5, 2005.

  1. plasmo

    plasmo IncGamers Member

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    Is the pope contributing to the spread of AIDS wrong?

    So, what's your take on this? The pope is opposed to condoms, and therefore indirectly contributes to the spread of AIDS.

    Economist, 20 Apr 2005.
    "And the refusal to condone the use of condoms has helped the spread of AIDS; the church has not only refused to change its stance, but has even promoted shoddy science purporting to show that condoms are ineffective in preventing transmission of HIV."

    Jurgita Zemaityte, Brussels, Economist letters, 21 Apr 2005.
    "Finally, the assertion that the church's teaching on contraception has contributed to many deaths is extraordinary. How can the church stand so accused when it proposes the only secure way to avoid AIDS transmission, which is through fidelity in marriage? If the church's ideas were followed, the spread of AIDS would not be the problem we have now."

    New Scientist, 9 April 2005.
    "We were disappointed that Pope John Paul II did not realise the Roman Catholic policy on condoms actually contributed to many deaths in the fight to control HIV/AIDS."

    Arthur Moore, Nottingham, UK, New Scientist letters, 30 April 2005.
    "Of course the pope and the Catholic church knew that deaths would result from their policies. According to the Bible, the 'wages of sin are death', and many right-wing Christians think that to permit the use of condoms would be to encourage sex outside marriage, or sex inside marriage that is not for its proper purpose of procreation. The logic follows that those who sin will die and, while this is perhaps not entirely desirable, some probably do not view it as an entirely bad thing either, as it serves as a warning to others of what will happen if they 'sin.'"

    Jack Miles, Slate.MSN.com, 19 April 2005.
    "The second question was whether the church would liberalize its stance on sexual morality and whether, in particular, it would soon take the step of allowing artificial contraceptives—as it came close to doing in the mid-1960s, before Humanae Vitae. That 1968 encyclical reaffirmed ultraconservative sexual morality and reversed a trend toward collegiality in church government. Today, condoms have helped to slow the spread of AIDS in Brazil and elsewhere. But in Africa, where the AIDS crisis is worst, the church is identified more than ever with the most adamant opposition to the condom. Meanwhile, church governance remains more tightly centralized than ever. The election of Joseph Ratzinger announces that in both these regards—sexual morality and church governance—the status quo will remain unchanged."

    And a few others thoughts:
    -African women have much less say in sex than in more developed countries. What one would call "rape" here is more acceptable there.
    -There are ways to get AIDS other than sex, especially mother to child. Does the child deserve to die for it's parents' sinful ways?



    So, 2 questions here, really.

    1. Is the pope contributing to the spread of HIV/AIDS?

    Nobody denies this one (well, maybe that second guy; let's say nobody with any rational logic at all).

    If you have a way to prevent something but refuse to use it, you're contributing. Remember, "contributing" is a lot broader than "causing." That France, Great Britain, Russia, Serbia, Austria, and Germany all contributed to starting WWI is not debatable; who caused it is.

    2. If we accept (1), is it wrong for the pope to contribute to the spread of HIV/AIDS?

    This one is obviously more contestable.

    I'd say it is wrong. Of course, I'm not Catholic, so I'd guess that plays a huge role (especially with the pope supposedly being infallible on morals when he speaks for the whole Church). I think letting people die is worse than "encouraging" them to have non-marital sex. If I were heavily religious, I could try to claim that both murder and adultery are in the 10 Commandments and are equally important. Bah. Nobody thinks ignorning your mother telling you to take the garbage out is a sin equal to killing someone.

    Also, as Jack Miles points out, the Church being opposed to condoms is very temporal. In a few years (well, most likely only after this pope, considering how conservative he is), the Church could very well accept condoms, just as it has accepted the idea that the earth revolves around the sun or that there is no physical hell or that women are not simply property. The Church hardly stands by its views forever; it adapts to meet the needs of its followers.


    Discussion?
     
  2. blu3l1ghtn1ng

    blu3l1ghtn1ng IncGamers Member

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    I'll be honest, I didn't read all of that. The pope didn't spread HIV. People did by not being honest with each other, and not be safe. And by safe I mean making sure their husband/wife is clean. Since that is the Church's view on marriage, and chastity, then its view towards condoms should refer to this.
     
  3. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    The pope contributes to the spread of AIDS by fostering and promoting ignorance among the least educated groups. In the favour of his own dogma he'd rather see people die than not follow the catholic teachings. He lives in the past - as NB said it, all religions need to pull themselves out of the 10th century - and people die for it. Certain protections need to be taken in modern day that take precedence over religious rules.
     
  4. blu3l1ghtn1ng

    blu3l1ghtn1ng IncGamers Member

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    By having premature sex, they are already not listening to the Church, so why bother not wearing a condom. The whole thing contradicts itself. And if they are married, and they want to stay religious, they should check themselves, and use sex as a purpose of procreation.

    I personally disagree with the chasitity rules as a Catholic, however it is wrong to say the Church has to change.
     
  5. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    Hmm... good question. Wait, no it wasn't. It was just a loaded question. You know, when someone phrases a claim as a question to avoid having to support their claim.

    By the way, do you still beat your wife?


    1. Is the pope contributing to the spread of HIV/AIDS?
    No.

    What is the pope encouraging? marital fidelity and no premarital sex. You do realize that this is the best possible solution to the problem right?

    So is it wrong that those who think premarital sex are contributing to the spread of aids?
     
  6. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    I would guess most people in Africa wouldn't even know if they had HIV because of the lack of medical treatment.

    However, i don't think that population control is all that bad. If the human population keeps growing, then someone is going to be hungry, so does it matter if people die from hunger or from aids?
     
  7. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    You have a good point. What I have a problem with is the pope spreading lies to promote his dogma. The church can disapprove of stuff until the cows come home for all I care as long as they don't actually try to enforce it. It's when they try to meddle in science and come out with their own "scientific" evidence that endangers the lives of millions of people who don't know any better that I have a problem with. The pope by approving this stuff is taking his own morality and saying it's more important than the easing of suffering of others.

    Abstention is one way to prevent the flow of AIDS. However, many people believe it is their right to have sex when they want to. Given that not everyone is catholic nor do even all catholics believe in abstention, other options must be provided.
     
  8. blu3l1ghtn1ng

    blu3l1ghtn1ng IncGamers Member

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    Agreed. By saying that condoms don't help control AIDS is incorrect, and immoral on the Church's part. But even though he says this, people should realize that by having sex they are ALWAYS at risk for an STD. Ultimately, the pope is trying to say: don't have sex and use condoms to stop kids from being born.
     
  9. Gix

    Gix IncGamers Member

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    The pope isn't contributing to AIDS/HIV, he is just stating his opinion. It is the people who have irresponsible sex and don't use condoms who promote AIDS/HIV. Just because the pope says "No condoms" doesn't mean everyone has to become stupid and not use them.
     
  10. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    So if they are going to cherry pick about something so clearly stated in the bible as premarital sex, you think they are listening to the pope? There isn't any way around that point.

    I do agree that the church shouldn't be making bogus claims though.

    As for "trying to enforce" their values, it isn't like there are preists walking around with AK-47s keeping people from using condoms.
     
  11. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    Wait a second, if the Church is so pro-life, then why does it promote options that spread AIDS which kills people?
     
  12. Gix

    Gix IncGamers Member

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    Because religious groups, or religion in general, often contradict themselves.
     
  13. blu3l1ghtn1ng

    blu3l1ghtn1ng IncGamers Member

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    Well if you practiced safe sex (marriage, knowledge of disease) then this wouldn't be an issue. But the society we live in uses sex as a social pasttime, so obviously HIV is spread. Since the purpose of sex is for procreation, then a condom would contradict this. Hence, condom is not needed for sex.
     
  14. Dj_Otaku

    Dj_Otaku IncGamers Member

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    Well, They don't promote it at all because first off they should not be having premarital sex anyways. The church does not have to change for anyone, it is not like they force it on the populace of the world. Anyways, I personally disagree with they church teaching on this, but I also see where they are coming from.

    Dj_Otaku
     
  15. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    If you have sex only when you're married, you can still spread aids if you're mother had aids.
     
  16. Dj_Otaku

    Dj_Otaku IncGamers Member

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    So, you would lie to your spouse and tell them that you don't have aids? EVEN if you didn't know you had aids I reall doubt you are using a condom when you are married, there are many other birthcontrols....

    Dj_Otaku
     
  17. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    Why shouldn't people be having premarital sex? Who made that rule? I'm not catholic so their rules don't apply to me.

    The pope still has to approve of these things and support them during questions and appearances. He's the head of the vatican. If it came from there it has his name attached to it whether he likes it or not.

    No, but their opinion does hold considerable sway with people even non-catholic religious people. They threaten politicians who don't do what they want and call oppositions evil and whatnot. They still do damage and not in a method that would be comparable to a "good Christian".

    He's stating his opinion by producing lies that entice people to follow his ways and then die for it. That sounds more like a cult, to me. His opinions promote the contraction of AIDS. He's contributing to it by hampering solutions to prevent it. He's not saying that people who have irresponsible sex and don't use condoms are the ones passing on AIDS. He's saying that people when they have sex should never ever use condoms, outside of marriage or not.
     
  18. Isolde212

    Isolde212 Banned

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    I feel that since the church is pro-life and does not condone the use of condoms that is a fair call for the pope. However, I agree with the hypocrisy of their stance in the sense that using condoms saves lives. I think what would be more beneficial and sustain more approval is if the church condoned the education on the spread of HIV/AIDS to third world countries. If the general impoverished communities were more educated then perhaps they would practice the more Christian stance of abstinence. Perhaps instead of preaching from the pulpits or through press releases that condoms are bad they should be going out into these countries and seriously educating the people about the spread of disease through sexual activity. Instead of indirectly contributing to rising death rates they should be doing a better job of preventing it by using their beliefs in positive and more educational ways.
     
  19. Dj_Otaku

    Dj_Otaku IncGamers Member

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    Exactly, that rule does not apply to non-catholics so nobody should be telling the church what to do. Also, I was presenting the argument from someone who is very religious...

    Dj_Otaku
     
  20. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    I figured you may have been. I don't want to tell the church what to do. I want them to stay out of non-catholic lives. I have no problem with them disapproving or discouraging verbally of premarital sex. They're entitled to their opinion regardless of what I think of it. What pisses me off and what is wrong is when they stick their noses into people's business and do so in a way that intentionally (and I say intentionally because they couldn't possibly not know that saying condoms don't stop AIDS wouldn't be endangering lives) harms people. All they do in this case is do more harm as they try to help. But they do it for alterior motives. What they want is to get more people to their flock, not save lives. That much is apparent in their stance on the issue.
     

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