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Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Thecla, Aug 20, 2010.

  1. Thecla

    Thecla IncGamers Member

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    Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    So here's something that bothers me: not so much that the devs have eliminated weapon switches and town portals, but that they seem to have no clue as to their legitimate uses.

    For the last bowazon I played (who was based around immolation arrow), I actually wanted three weapon slots (one for a +skills elemental da bow, one for a physical da bow when facing PI's, and one for a javelin/shield). I think anyone who's played the game for any length of time understands the legitimate uses of being able to switch weapon sets, and not simply so they can use it as an "exploit" to switch to ali-baba's for the final kill (a problem with mf, not weapon switching).

    (I'll also add parenthetically that the variations is str/dex/vit useful for different bowazon builds, depending on what bows you want to use, sc/hc etc doesn't make me happy about automatic stat distribution either -- true that energy was mostly useless for bowazons, even fairly extreme magezon builds, but again that's a problem with how energy was implemented, not the option to distribute stats.)

    I understand the worry about town portals providing an easy escape route from dangerous situations, but how much was that really exploited? (Didn't most people just exit the game? Will they stop that too in D3? And why not just give tp's a longer casting time if that really is the worry?) But, since the very start of Diablo, the first thing any careful player learned to do was set a backup portal in a cleared area, so they could return for item/corpse recovery, and (relevant also to hc) have an alternative entrance/exit to a confined region, instead of leading a big mob back to the entrance to trap the stairs.

    I like a lot of the game-design philosophy espoused by Jay Wilson, and maybe the game will be absolutely fine with automatic stat distribution, no weapon switch, no tp's (and even Legend-of-Zelda-style boss fights, unpalatable though that sounds, or the silly-looking Commander-Keen-style health globes). But if, as it often seems, the devs have very little idea about how combat really works in Diablo (which is ultimately what keeps the game interesting IMO, even more so than the-hunt-for-find-the-next-great-item) will their wholesale changes be for the better or worse?
     
  2. Rothas

    Rothas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    I bet that there won't be any "+skill" items in D3. Most likely there won't be any immunes either. I found those both features rather annoying in D2 and hopefully they didn't include them, so therefore you shouldn't need two or three weapon slots.

    Jay said in some interview that there will be 10min travel time between the waypoints, so you might not want to actually leave the game if the battle gets too hot. But yeah, i bet that nobody likes to use town portals in D2 since it's like cheating, same thing with potions.


     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2010
  3. Moonfrost

    Moonfrost IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    When people say stuff like "the devs don't share my views so obviously they've never played the game", what they're really saying is "I'm so convinced that I'm right that I don't even want to consider the possibility that I'm not".

    Of course they know there were some legitimate uses, that's why the feature was introduced in the first place. They just disagree with you when you explain how much the feature added to the game.

    So switching to MF for the final blow was a problem with MF and not weapon switching, yet switching to elemental/+skill weapons was not a problem with immunities and +skills/oskills? To me, they're very much the same. If immunities didn't exist and MF and +skills didn't work during a swap, there wouldn't be a reason to use weapon swap.

    Of the three reasons for switching you mentioned, only the javelin/shield one is truly legitimate because hybrid builds are so dependant on quick access to different weapon-dependent skills. As with immunes and +skills, it can be argued that this is a problem with something else (skill design in this case) rather than weapon switch, but it can also be argued that hybrid builds add more to the game than immunities and +skills do and therefore matter far more.


     
  4. Valhauros

    Valhauros IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    I don't mind the elimination of the weapon switch, but the Town Portals are a must in a Diablo game, it's just part of tradition, same as stat distribution; after all, it's my problem if I only want to spend all my points in one statistic. But you know, they are a bigger company now, so they have pressure to appeal to a broader audience, even at the expense of legacy.
     
  5. Occulus cant be ethereal

    Occulus cant be ethereal IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    Im fine with the TPs gone but I kinda like the weapon switch and didnt see it much as an exploit besides using the backup as buffer weapons. I didnt even catch the weapon switch topic being discussed.

    I think with weapon switching, as someone said in another thread that they hope its more animated and see your character put their weapons away and pull their other one out (even if it looks like its being pulled out of thin air). In more technical gaming, in D2 it was instant. To improve the weapon switch could have a time delay so if you did it in the middle of a big fight then you would be taking hits before you can fight.
     
  6. Technomancer

    Technomancer IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    I think it's pretty obvious that they are reserving Weapon Switching for an expansion. Just like they did with D2.
     
  7. crivit

    crivit IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    I'm going to miss both weapon switching and tp scrolls. Removing the weapon switch obviously takes away a strategic element. My main fear with the removal of tp scrolls has to do with multiplayer. I often play with friends, and we usually don't all log on at the same time. Now if a buddy joins my game I send them a tp and we're instantly battling together. With no tp's it could be a hassle to try to meet up in the wilderness, especially if they don't have the same wp's I do. This should effectively put an end to rushing as well. I see that part as a good thing, but I suspect lots of people are gonna start screaming bloody murder when they realize that all their toons are going to have to walk though the whole game instead of grabbing someone else's wp and skipping ahead.
     
  8. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    They explicitly mentioned earlier on that they have a system that teleports a friend to you in the field from a town. So your concern was considered and solved.

    "When all you have is a hammer" doesn't really apply when you are building a new game from the ground up.
     
  9. crivit

    crivit IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    I hadn't seen that, thanks for the info.


     
  10. Killafornia

    Killafornia IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    The problem with TPs could have been solved very easily. Just put them on cooldown when in combat. Simple as that.
     
  11. blackbisket

    blackbisket IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    Im glad TP are out as too many player used them as a life line, but ill miss weapon switching for the fact od a pure strategic POV. Such as running into a rare mob where u need to quickly do from a DPS barb to one with a shield or a quick monk staff/duel weild change.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
  12. raveharu

    raveharu IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    Town portals should be removed, and I'm glad they can no longer be abused in D3.

    It promotes a thing called "laziness", something we can no longer see in D3.
     
  13. Killafornia

    Killafornia IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    It wasn't really laziness was it? Rushing kept d2 alive. It also enabled certain builds to be made for PVP that wouldn't be able to make it through the game. Also why do you care if people want to use a feature that's available and convenient to them?


     
  14. jread

    jread IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    Agreed 100%, although with the respec option in place this is not as big of a problem anymore in D2 (and I imagine respec will be available in D3 as well).

    I have very mixed feelings about D3... part of me hopes that they truly take everything wrong with D2 and do it better in D3, as this seems to be the goal. However, another part of me kind of wishes that they'd take the SC2 approach: take the existing game (which is one of the greatest video games in history), update the graphics, add a few nice features, and release it.... all without screwing up all the things that fans love so much about it.

    I'm just really nervous.... they got it right with SC2, but they got it very wrong with Warcraft 3. I just hope that, for the love of all that is sacred, they don't screw up Diablo.



     
  15. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    People have to remove that stupid mindset : "If it didnt affect you, why remove it!? People liked! You play as you want! Bla bla" out of their heads.

    Rushing and TP exploit for example, affect the game as a whole. Diablo 2's Multiplayer has always been a ridiculously badly designed game because of that mindset. What happens when so many exploits are open is that everyone will ALWAYS want to play like that because its always the most EFFECTIVE way to play.

    An example is Act3. Its pretty much a dead act, NOBODY does the act as it was designed. People will say "Duh that doesnt affect you! You can do it if you want it!" Yeah I can do it alone because in a MP enviroment nobody will want to do it as it was supposed to be done when a much easier, faster and exploitable way is avaliable.

    Baal runs leeching xp? What a moronic way to play a game, sitting around doing nothing and getting huge ammounts of XP while trying to steal drops that you dont deserve. Thats Diablo 2's multiplayer in a nutshell.

    I am glad that actual game-designers are working on Diablo 2 and not some nostalgic fan that barely remembers the game that they played for years.
     
  16. blackbisket

    blackbisket IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    Did you watch the video of Jay giving the reason TPs are out of D3? It all makes sense if you did.


     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
  17. Killafornia

    Killafornia IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    Don't blame people who get rushes for act 3 sucking. -Most- people don't find act 3 worth playing, and that's entirely the fault of the game developers. Also rushing with TPs isn't really an exploit just because Jay Wilson thinks it is. It was put in the game knowing that rushing would be entirely possible, and if they didn't know the ability to teleport a low level character anywhere in the act would make rushing available well then why where they making video games in the first place?

    If the majority of people liked rushing when it was built into the game then it was good thing. Speaking for myself I've beat the game enough times since it was released that I have no desire to play through it anymore. I'm entirely in the right when I say "Why remove it!? People liked! You play as you want! Bla bla."


     
  18. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    How many times have we been over this by now?
    I'm sure you know what I'll say so I won't.

    I think that will harm the feature more then it solves anything. They whole idea of hybriding or tactical weapon switches is exactly to be able to access it quickly.
    However, the exploits through mf and buffing is different. Even if it take some time, people will abuse it. They have time for this as it's done outside of battle. Spending 2 seconds to double your life really isn't that big a deal.


    Why don't most people play act 3?
    First, because getting a rush is so easy.
    Second, because rushing doesn't harm them in anyway. Compare it to act 1, that one isn't rushed as often ihmo because you need a rush for act 2 aswell. Act 2 due to it's designed isn't rushed all that often so you need to be level 15-20 when exiting act 1 anyway.
    Third, because people don't like a challenge. Ho no, my barbarian doesn't can't kill 30 flayers in one attack. Or they die. Or something like that.



     
  19. Killafornia

    Killafornia IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    This game isn't challenging, people don't skip act 3 because it's hard they skip it because it's boring. They skip it because they want to try a new PVP build, a build that sucks until endgame, or they want to get a magic finder up and running ASAP. They also skip it because they've already played it 100 times. Hello 10 yr old game, of course hardly anyone is still playing through for the story and mobs it's been like this for years now and should be expected to be that way. As great as the game is you can only play through it so many times. Rushing has kept d2 alive on bnet, beating the game is easy and after you do it a few times you want to get down to item finding, PVP, and making new builds.


     
  20. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Is no weapon switch or tp the tip of the iceberg?

    That goes for all acts.
    You made a point specifically about act 3 and your point doesn't stand (you don't even defend it).



     

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