Is AR important for FA/Piercing

Nubi

Diabloii.Net Member
Is AR important for FA/Piercing

I've just read Freaya's guide for the FA amazon, and someone wrote that the if the arrow pierces, it will need to hit the next monster, in order for FA to trigger. I'm just wondering if this holds true ?

It seems somewhat weird to me, that it should have a different behaviour when piercing something, but it may just be me.

Also piercing from items and from the skill doesn't stack directly do they ?

I mean if I use kuko (50 % pierce) and pump piercing to lvl 4 (49 % pierce), I wouldn't get 99 % would I ?

I'm rather certain that in 1.09 (last time I played :D) they where applied in order, i.e. 49 % pierce from piercing, if it doesn't pierce then it check for items, so I'll get 50 % of the remaining 51 % then. Which adds up to 74,5 % chance.

Which way does it work in 1.10 ?

Also does anyone know the splash radius of immolation ?
 

Liliel

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm not sure about your first question, since I don't think I've ever had AR problems with a bowazon, with so many points in Dex and all.

And I think pierce stacks directly whatever the source.
 

Grobyc

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm quite certain that you could miss and it could still pierce.

As for your second question, it stacks on top of each other. So if you have a level 9 Pierce and wearing a Razortail, you'll have 100% piercing.

What you are thinking of is Deadly Strike and Critical Strike, it rolls for one then the other if the first failed.
 

HCTwinJava

Diabloii.Net Member
1st Q: AR matters for delivering the damage from the physical arrow, but not for the damage from the skill. FA always hits for the skill effects: cold+freeze.

2nd Q: like others said, the total piercing is what is used in the game. 100% piercing FA will freeze everything on the trail of the arrow (assuming they can be frozen). This applied to 1.09 as well.
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
HCTwinJava said:
2nd Q: like others said, the total piercing is what is used in the game. 100% piercing FA will freeze everything on the trail of the arrow (assuming they can be frozen). This applied to 1.09 as well.
As long as the arrow/bolt hits the target. If it misses you may see the subsequent piercings and FA splashes, but they're only graphical.
 

HCTwinJava

Diabloii.Net Member
RTB said:
As long as the arrow/bolt hits the target. If it misses you may see the subsequent piercings and FA splashes, but they're only graphical.
the physical arrow/bolt can only have up to 95% chance to hit any target.

if it misses the target, there won't any piercing - it just travels through the target it aims to hit at.

however, as long as it travels through the target, FA (which is not an arrow, but a pure skill) will take effect: cold + freeze will apply to the target. FA is not a physical attack. AR has nothing to do with it. It always hits, but unlike GA, it won't redirect the physical arrow - it can only hit monsters on the trail of the physical arrow. And if piercing does not occur, FA will stop at the 1st target it hits, because the physical arrow has to stop here. If piercing occurs, the physical arrow will lead FA to more targets as long as the physical arrow continues to travel through more targets.

This can easily be tested with a low-AR (naked maybe) bowazon, since the freeze effect is so obvious.


hope this helps.
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
HCTwinJava said:
the physical arrow/bolt can only have up to 95% chance to hit any target.
Though with the bug on amazon ranged skills they very rarely do.

if it misses the target, there won't any piercing - it just travels through the target it aims to hit at.
On bnet it can happen, because of desynch and lag.

however, as long as it travels through the target, FA (which is not an arrow, but a pure skill) will take effect: cold + freeze will apply to the target. FA is not a physical attack. AR has nothing to do with it. It always hits, but unlike GA, it won't redirect the physical arrow - it can only hit monsters on the trail of the physical arrow. And if piercing does not occur, FA will stop at the 1st target it hits, because the physical arrow has to stop here. If piercing occurs, the physical arrow will lead FA to more targets as long as the physical arrow continues to travel through more targets.
Freezing Arrow is a missile with the graphic of Ice Arrow that releases a cold splash when it comes into contact with an enemy.. Because the arrow/bolt still has a physical component to it and hasn't been made auto-hit it still goes through the chance to hit formula/blocking/etc. The splash is released before the arrow goes through the usual chance to hit/etc.

That AR% bug is nasty, my poor mavinazon had to put a Hel'ed Demon Limb to keep on consistently hitting monsters.
 

HCTwinJava

Diabloii.Net Member
My most recent bowazon at level 40ish had very low AR against NM Baal's minions (= about 50% chance to hit, IIRC), and had a very hard time to just survive in the NM throne. But she has not died even once in the game (well, died a few times in my friend's hands tho). With very fast razor/blade bows, Endlesshail, Magewrath, or Buriza, and with 30% IAS from her gear, plus lvl 4 piercing (49%, or more with gear), she was able to freeze almost all of Lister's minions in NM in just a sec, angering some necros every once in a while. With +10 cold charms, she was able to keep the entire group frozen (excep Lister) until all of them died. It seems to me FA never missed a target as long as the physical arrow/bolt traveled through the target (whether the physical arrow hit the target or did any dmg is a different matter).

This is my recent xp. And I was convinced that FA still works the same way as it did in 1.09. I play on bnet only, so if there is a bug related to FA on bnet, then it must have become a norm to me. I'm not aware of any bugs that are related to FA (or both FA & AR). Since I did not play d2x for nearly a year, I might have missed something. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit, if you don't mind?
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
The splash is released whatever the arrow/bolt does. So when it travels through a target, it means that it hit and also went through the chance to Pierce succesfully. Since you're on bnet, you may see it piercing through, but on the server it won't.

As for your question on the ar% bug, I'll have to link you to here. Brianc84 explains it really well.
 

HCTwinJava

Diabloii.Net Member
RTB said:
The splash is released whatever the arrow/bolt does. So when it travels through a target, it means that it hit and also went through the chance to Pierce succesfully. Since you're on bnet, you may see it piercing through, but on the server it won't.

I don't think so. the monsters - Lister's minions in particular - stopped moving b/c my ama's FA. All players in the game saw this. And my ama at that time had only very low AR against those minions, and should have taken her more than 6 arrows on average to hit just 3 separate minions. My ama also used FA to stop whoever dared to approach her in WSK. FA always worked, and my ama with barely over 300 hp in the beginning never died in NM Baal runs.


"when it travels through a target, it means that it hit" - this is not true. MS can cover a very large area, with 10 or 20 or more arrows traveling through many monsters, but only some monsters get hit.



RTB said:
As for your question on the ar% bug, I'll have to link you to here. Brianc84 explains it really well.
That link does not contain an explanation - just some observations, instead.


Missiles, especially slowly flying arrows, should miss targets a lot, b/c their flying direction is fixed when launched, but targets may move at any instant (I'm not talking about a skill named GA).

AR can grant you up to 95% chance to hit, but that's just 1 condition for your missiles to get a target. Just consider this: if you have 0 defense in Hell, any monster may have 95% chance to hit you. But that does not mean they will actually hit you 95% of the time. You may dogde, move, run, hide, etc., to avoid getting hit and die. The same applies to player characters as well - why should our missiles nearly always (up to 95%) hit monsters? That'd not make any sense. The game handles this reasonably.
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
HCTwinJava said:
I don't think so. the monsters - Lister's minions in particular - stopped moving b/c my ama's FA. All players in the game saw this. And my ama at that time had only very low AR against those minions, and should have taken her more than 6 arrows on average to hit just 3 separate minions. My ama also used FA to stop whoever dared to approach her in WSK. FA always worked, and my ama with barely over 300 hp in the beginning never died in NM Baal runs.
I suppose you used the character screen for the chance to hit. That chance is wrong, it uses the Mlvls listed in monstats.txt, which are only used for bosses and in normal.

"when it travels through a target, it means that it hit" - this is not true. MS can cover a very large area, with 10 or 20 or more arrows traveling through many monsters, but only some monsters get hit.
That is desynch or lag. For an arrow or bolt to pass through an enemy it must pass the chance to hit or it simply won't Pierce.

That link does not contain an explanation - just some observations, instead.
The observations of this bug then:
the AR% on any of the amazon's missile skills does not work.

His target was immobile and the test was done in SP, so far less desynch than on bnet.
 

HCTwinJava

Diabloii.Net Member
i don't know how you could be so sure there is so much desync/lagging that distorted the game on bnet like that.

Let me put this in a different way and hope this time it will be clearer:

1) regardless my ama's AR, be it 5% or 95%,
2) my ama was able to freeze 1+ monster with 1 shoot,
3) almost all the time (unless that's a demo imp who just teleported away, or unless i shoot to my left but the intended target is to my right, or unless the target cannot be frozen...),

4) and she was able to freeze up Lister's entire group in 1 sec or so.

5) If you call all this dysnc/lag, then it's a norm to all b-net players.

My internet connection is at 1Mbps+, 24x7, with 384K down stream guaranteed by my ISP. I do have dysnc/lags, but for the game play purposes, they don't exist most of the time.

6) I don't play SP any more. If you do a test in SP with 1.10 patch, I believe even in SP, you should be able to freeze everything that can be frozen, by using FA, regardless of your AR.


7) Monsters on ladder move fast and have better stats/dmg, so a bowazon missing targets a lot is also not weird at all. AR is just 1 of many conditions to determine if your arrow/bolt actually hits.
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
HCTwinJava said:
1) regardless my ama's AR, be it 5% or 95%,
2) my ama was able to freeze 1+ monster with 1 shoot,
3) almost all the time (unless that's a demo imp who just teleported away, or unless i shoot to my left but the intended target is to my right, or unless the target cannot be frozen...),
4) and she was able to freeze up Lister's entire group in 1 sec or so.
The first splash of FA always happens when the arrrow/bolt comes into contact with an enemy or wall. I believe I said that already.

5) If you call all this dysnc/lag, then it's a norm to all b-net players.
It's indeed the norm. It happens wherever latency is involved.

7) Monsters on ladder move fast and have better stats/dmg, so a bowazon missing targets a lot is also not weird at all. AR is just 1 of many conditions to determine if your arrow/bolt actually hits.
On an immobile target?
 

HCTwinJava

Diabloii.Net Member
RTB said:
It's indeed the norm. It happens wherever latency is involved.
Network latency is not something that can come n go. It is an intrinsic nature of any network. In other words, it exists wherever there is a computer network. To eliminate it means to destroy the whole network.

FA freezes targets just like GS (glacial spike) or IB (ice blast). FA's cold+freeze effect has nothing to do with AR. And FA misses targets also just like GS/IB.

You argued that this is a bug (or there is a bug that makes FA only graphical if the physical arrow has missed a target), due to "network latency". I don't see such a bug. I believe that is just how the game is supposed to be played.


RTB said:
On an immobile target?
Sure, even against Fire Towers nothing can guarantee a plain arrow from any lvl 99 Amazon (not imbued with GA) can physically hit it.
 

RTB

Diabloii.Net Member
HCTwinJava said:
Network latency is not something that can come n go. It is an intrinsic nature of any network. In other words, it exists wherever there is a computer network. To eliminate it means to destroy the whole network.
That's why testing on bnet is not very accurate when dealing with subjects affected by latency.

FA freezes targets just like GS (glacial spike) or IB (ice blast). FA's cold+freeze effect has nothing to do with AR. And FA misses targets also just like GS/IB.
That's what I keep saying. On bnet there are two cases of "miss" however:
1. The missile hits an enemy on the server but fails the chance to hit check/block chance/etc.
2. On the server the missile goes past an enemy without making contact, yet thanks to latency the client sees it go through and spark off FA splashes, because the client predicts what will happen and shows that. It's not always right, and thus gives people like you the impression that missiles with failed chance to hit checks/etc can continue through enemies.

On SP the second case is really rare.

You argued that this is a bug (or there is a bug that makes FA only graphical if the physical arrow has missed a target), due to "network latency". I don't see such a bug. I believe that is just how the game is supposed to be played.
The bug is that the ar% on the amazon missile skills does not give a bonus to AR. It does nothing.

Sure, even against Fire Towers nothing can guarantee a plain arrow from any lvl 99 Amazon (not imbued with GA) can physically hit it.
But against such a target it's only AR/def/Clvl/mlvl aka the chance to hit formula that matters. Chance to block was of course zero for his tests.
 
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