# Iron Skin or Berserk?

#### F1R3STR1D3R

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Iron Skin or Berserk?

For a concentrate melee barb would it be better to max berserk or iron skin after these skills:

Concentrate
Battle Orders
Shout
Axe Mastery

I've heard Iron Skin isn't calculated like Shout and Concentrate in that it times the % bonus/100 by the base defense then adds it to the final defense.
If Iron Skin is like Concentrate and Shout then the % bonuses/100 get multiplied by the base defense.

For example:

You have 75 base defense from Dexterity (300/4), and 4000 base defense from armor. With a level 20 Iron skin it multiplies that defense by 2.20, which is 8150 and adds it to the final defense, which is (4000+75)*(Concentrate + Shout + 100)/100. Assuming concentrate and shout are level 20 your Final defense would be 35860.

Now if Iron skin gets calculated like Concentrate and Shout your defense would be (4075)*(290 + 290 + 220 + 100)/100 = 36675

Or if Iron Skin gets multiplied to you base defense then multiplied to Concentrate and Shout then it would be (4075*3.20)*(290 + 290 + 100)/100 = 88672

On my character I have level 33 shout, 8 iron skin, and 29 concentrate. Dexterity is 287. My total defense without concentrate is 17093. With concentrate it is 27570. My defense on my items is 2686. So the equation would be either (2686+71.5)*(380 + 100 + 420 + 100)/100 or ((2686+71.5)*2)*(380 + 420 + 100)/100 or [(2686+71.5)*(380 + 420 + 100)/100] + [(2686+71.5)*(100+100)/100)].

After I checked it, it is (2686+71.5)*(380 + 100 + 420 + 100)/100 so iron skin is calculated like concentrate and shout. So would it be better to have max zerk or max iron skin for melee? Now, with level 27 iron skin, 33 shout, and 29 concentrate I would have: (2686+71.5)*(380 + 290 + 420 + 100)/100 = 32814 defense.

When looking into Concentrate in duels I do 941-2978 with 95% deadly strike. My average damage would be 1959.5*1.95 = 3821 and 20% of that damage is magical damage.

If it was all physical and dueling someone with 50% damage reduce, I would be doing an average of (3821)*(1/6)*(1/2) = 318 damage

Now since it is 20% magical damage my physical damage would be (3821)*(1/6)*(1/2)*(4/5) = 254 and my magical damage is (3821)*(1/6)*(1/5) = 127. After adding those together my final damage is 381 damage.

So my final question is: Is the extra 5244 defense on iron skin better than the extra 63 damage from the 20% magical conversion on concentrate?

#### whyuneedit

##### Diabloii.Net Member
atleast you did the right thing, now time to decide. i once had that dicision also, except instead of putting it in berserk or iron skin, i put it in bash. how stupid of me. i dont even have shout maxxed. its actually a lvl 5 shout but i still get 24k def. interesting isnt it.

#### LongScar

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Me and halciet were discussing this last night, he made a barb with all skills placed except the spares that go to bash/iron skin/zerk, cloned him, then put remaining points into bash, iron skin and berserk respectively here was the results

Halciet: 20 points in bash gave 640 more damage, which is doubled on deadly strikes and such
Halciet: 20 in ironskin gave 5500 more defense
Halciet: and 20 in berserk gave a 20% shift of magical damage, along with 1.9k more berserk damage and 5500 more berserk ar

We also checked that defence difference and in pvm 5500 defence made reduced chance to be hit by about 3% when standing, and it would make less difference then that when swinging.

Now my opinion is if this is for dueling in BvB i'd go with bash, however if it is for general dueling where you are trying to kill hammerdins and sorc's who ignore target defence i'd go zerk for your attack against them. Also for pvm my choice was zerk due primarily to Oblivion knights.

#### Halciet

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Lol, that's exactly what I was going to post. Thanks for doing it for me though Long, so i didn't have to dig through our chat logs for the stats

You can look at those numbers and decide for yourself. That was with a BotD berserker axe, and near-perfect armor all around (upgraded arreat's, gores, and lavagouts for more defense).

-Hal

#### whyuneedit

##### Diabloii.Net Member
kool i guess i did the rite thing afterall. i shoulda went with zerk instead of bash, but o well. i still have my zerker barb, but 2 bad i xfered his good stuff to my conc barb, im not that rich u kno

#### Vargasanath

##### Banned
IMO defense is pretty simple....you can maximize it or you can't.....I'm assuming that Lng/Hal were using Enigma during thier testing (With good reason because even if you're not an enigma fan you know you've longed for it after youve run half a mile with fanat doll trailing your arse all the way to meph :/), and while Enigma is good it isn't as high as some so dmg oriented skills would benefit you more...whereas if you had stuff like an etheral steel carpace....etheral upgraded skulders (which I can vouch for as a very lovely armor with 2295 defense )....these would obviously benefit more from skin....not to mention if you had an upgraded etheral arreats.......700 defense....oh hey....reality...nice to see you again.

Then again I would listen to nothing either of them say because they use sissy toys r us looking weapons...axes...blehk :/

Oh yeah....if you go with dmg i would advise zerk because of the reason long mentioned (also necro who IM you and think they got you owned and then 1 zerk later nothing but blissful silence ), but also for things like vampires/gloams/minotaurs that have a heavy physical resistance...

Also the swirly thing on zerk is most utterly fascinating....

#### Halciet

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Aye, it was with Enigma in an archon, around 1250 defense. I used that because it's typically the favorite for pvp, with the r/w, life, tele, damage to mana for whirlers, and that huge str bonus which means you can skimp big-time for a ton of extra life.

The rest of the gear was high-end defensive gear to help make up for that a bit. Though he's right, a big big defense chest-piece would add a lot of defense. Replacing the chest piece with a 220% ethereal steel carapace, for example, adds around 9k defense instead of 5.5k. This still only lowers your % chance to be hit by about 6% though.

So if you are planning to use a huge defense chestpiece, 20 in iron could lower your chance to be hit by 6-8% (if you tagged on etheral arreat's too), or about 3-4% if you went with engima; you'd need to pump a bit more str though, so you'd lose a bit of life in exchange. 20 in berserk with a big weapon will raise your overall damage by about 11% (i had 7000 base when I tested, and it went to 7640, so that's about 11% of the original max), or you could swing for the 20% conversion from berserk and the boosted secondary skill.

-Hal

#### LongScar

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Vargasanath said:
IMO defense is pretty simple....you can maximize it or you can't.....I'm assuming that Lng/Hal were using Enigma during thier testing (With good reason because even if you're not an enigma fan you know you've longed for it after youve run half a mile with fanat doll trailing your arse all the way to meph :/), and while Enigma is good it isn't as high as some so dmg oriented skills would benefit you more...whereas if you had stuff like an etheral steel carpace....etheral upgraded skulders (which I can vouch for as a very lovely armor with 2295 defense )....these would obviously benefit more from skin....not to mention if you had an upgraded etheral arreats.......700 defense....oh hey....reality...nice to see you again.

Then again I would listen to nothing either of them say because they use sissy toys r us looking weapons...axes...blehk :/

Oh yeah....if you go with dmg i would advise zerk because of the reason long mentioned (also necro who IM you and think they got you owned and then 1 zerk later nothing but blissful silence ), but also for things like vampires/gloams/minotaurs that have a heavy physical resistance...

Also the swirly thing on zerk is most utterly fascinating....
Actually iron skin will have more practical effect when using lower defence gear.

eg. (these numbers are made up but give you the idea)

with 18000 def before iron skin would give you 23,000 def, taking your chances to be hit from 13% to 10%

with 13000 def before iron skin would give you 16,000 def taking your chances to be hit from 20% to 15%

So if you already have godly gear you don't need iron skin, but if you don't you might.

#### Vargasanath

##### Banned
LongScar said:
Actually iron skin will have more practical effect when using lower defence gear.

eg. (these numbers are made up but give you the idea)

with 18000 def before iron skin would give you 23,000 def, taking your chances to be hit from 13% to 10%

with 13000 def before iron skin would give you 16,000 def taking your chances to be hit from 20% to 15%

So if you already have godly gear you don't need iron skin, but if you don't you might.
The point was that if you have high defensive gear then you're able to take better advantage of IronSkin rather than if you were using "good" defense like enigma. More defense = a bigger boost = that much of a lower % chance and btw the differences would be 13,000....25,000 or something more like that so yes it's very practical with better gear. Last I checked 10% was better than 15%.

#### Velocifero

##### Diabloii.Net Member
So for general melee duels, what would be the best? the 20% bzerk sounds better, i mean, thats better than the extra 600 pts of regular dmg from bash right? and how much def is necessary anyway? is 24k while concentrating good enough? this is with enigma btw.

#### Halciet

##### Diabloii.Net Member
Well, it depends on how you look at it. If you have highlords and a mastery, that 640 damage is actually 1280 more often than not. Generally, somewhere between 24-30k defense is pretty nice, but the more the better, as always (until you hit the threshhold where when you conc it takes you into 5%, then it doesn't matter anymore). I'd still probably say berserk though if you're going to be dueling other melee classes like paladins, just so you'll have a tool against them. It also helps for leveling, and converting 20% damage to magical on conc is nice, since he helps you get around pdr in pvp.

-Hal

#### Velocifero

##### Diabloii.Net Member
yea i would definatly think 20% of whatever ur dmg is, maybe 5k is way better than the bash synergy. i mean thats 1k magic dmg. 1k of pure unresisted dmg...theres no defense for that.